Are iPhone Golf GPS Apps allowed in club comps?

PGL

I have come across speculation on different threads that iPhone Golf GPS Apps are illegal in club competitions - can someone give a definitive answer to this? Given that dedicated GPS units are allowed by quite a lot of clubs for their comps (depending on their local rules), I don't see the problem in using an iPhone App which does the same thing.....

I have brought this issue up in other threads without much of a response, so decided to dedicate a thread to a pretty fundamental discussion, given the growing list of golf gps iphone apps floating around....

I would like to get a Golf GPS unit of some sort, and would like to know if the iPhone is a runner or not.....

all feedback is welcome

Tom Ghostwood

Your club must make a local rule allowing the use of distance measuring devices in club competitions.

PGL

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

Your club must make a local rule allowing the use of distance measuring devices in club competitions.

As outlined in my post, I'm aware that local rules apply regarding the use of DMDs - this debate relates to whether the use of iPhones are legal... Are iPhones covered under the definition of DMDs?

Tom Ghostwood

Well if you're using it to measure the distance its a dmd no?

IITYWYBMAD

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

Well if you're using it to measure the distance its a dmd no?

I think the OP is specifically referring to iphone apps, as opposed to DMD's. Some DMD's are precluded from use, others are not. For example a DMD which includes a device for detecting wind direction/speed is not allowed under any exemptions, even if the wind application is not in use on the device.

I would suspect that this is why there is some confusion over the iPhone, although I don't know for sure.

Jimdagym

Does your club allow mobile phones of any description out on the course?

PGL

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

Well if you're using it to measure the distance its a dmd no?

I agree with you Tom. However as I mentioned earlier, there has been speculation that the use of iPhones are illegal regardless of what local rules apply. I have logged this query with the makers of the GolfShot iPhone App.

Can anyone else shed some light on this?

cheers

Jasonw

i THINK THIS SHOULD CLARIFY THINGS:


http://www2.randa.org/news/files/Joint%20Statement%20on%20DMDs%20_R&A%20Final_.pdf


As I interpert the statement if for example you had the 'spirit level' app loaded - even if you didn't use it - you would be in breech of the rules. Provided as Tom points out the local rule allowing dmd's is in effect in the first place.

PGL

Jasonw wrote: »

i THINK THIS SHOULD CLARIFY THINGS:


http://www2.randa.org/news/files/Joint%20Statement%20on%20DMDs%20_R&A%20Final_.pdf


As I interpert the statement if for example you had the 'spirit level' app loaded - even if you didn't use it - you would be in breech of the rules. Provided as Tom points out the local rule allowing dmd's is in effect in the first place.

thanks for that Jason

So as I read it, the iPhone is illegal as there are apps available capable of measuring slopes, temperature, and possibly wind speed and direction - do you all concur?

I would like to hear the response of the manufacturers of the numerous iPhone golf gps apps to this rule, which effectively means that their apps can only be used for practice and non-competition use....

Jasonw

It's a tough one the more I think about it the more questions I have. fOn first reading I would have said if thoses apps were not loaded you should be ok but then I wonder if the fact that the Iphone can access the internet mean that it falls foul of the joint statement?

mike12

They are Definitely not allowed in comps there are actually a few GPS devices that used to give elevation and suggest club selection that are now illegal for comp use the device cannot be capable of measuring wind slope ect and the phone can do that so its for practice rounds only.
Mike

PGL

Jasonw wrote: »

It's a tough one the more I think about it the more questions I have. fOn first reading I would have said if thoses apps were not loaded you should be ok but then I wonder if the fact that the Iphone can access the internet mean that it falls foul of the joint statement?

My reading of these rules would suggest that iPhones would definitely be illegal. However given that: a) these rules were probably written before the dawn of iPhones; and b) there are so many golf gps apps on the market, the R&A / USPGA should come out, confirm their stance and amend the rules to include for iPhones

PGL

mike12 wrote: »

there are actually a few GPS devices that used to give elevation and suggest club selection that are now illegal for comp use.
Mike

do you know what GPS devices are now illegal?

PGL

I have got some interesting feedback from the makers of the GolfShot iPhone App. You can read the responses below, but in summary, an app is legal as long as it can only measure distance.

Furthermore, the iPhone must not have apps installed which can measure slopes, temperature and wind (speed and direction) - don't ask me how this would work in reality i.e. can you really see golf club officials scrolling through your iPhone making sure you have none of these apps?. And if you really want to be pedantic, whats stopping you downloading these apps once you are out on the course? It looks like they are relying on everyone's integrity similar to keeping scores etc.

So in theory if a club has a local rule permitting the use of DMDs, then a distance measuring iPhone App falls under this category. However they recommend that you check with your club first.

Do clubs have local rules banning the use of mobile phones? If so then that rules out the iPhone straight away...

I'm just not convinced on this one as there are a lot of grey areas.

Anyways with regards to the thread on GPS friendly clubs, I wonder would it be an idea to modify it to include whether or not the club also permits iPhone Apps? - just a thought....

Response from makers of GolfShot:

Not sure if you saw this article or not but I'll quote the text below:
http://gps.about.com/od/gpsproductoverview/a/smartphone-golf-gps-rules.htm
"Smartphones and Other Multi-function Devices"
In the case of multi-function and smartphone devices that can run golf GPS apps, such as the iPhone and BlackBerry, the ruling is more complex, but it is clear. Some have interpreted the 2009 USGA/R&A Joint Statement to mean that multi-function devices that may include phone, Web-browser, and weather app capability, are not permitted for competition under any circumstances.
That is not the case, says Carter Rich, equipment standards manager for the USGA Test Center, based in Far Hills, New Jersey. For example, use of a conforming golf GPS app on an iPhone or BlackBerry is allowed when the local rule permitting use of such apps is in effect, with some qualifiers. These fall into two categories:
1. Resident functions normally found on smartphones, such as web browsers, and calling capability.
2. Golf-specific apps or other apps that might assist the player in making a stroke or in his or her play.
Even though a golfer could potentially open a weather site via a Web browser during competition, Rich says, the rules do not prohibit the use of a Web browser-equipped smartphone in competition. There are other, permitted uses for a Web browser, such as checking e-mail, for example (don’t do that in my foursome, though!).
As with many rules of golf, it’s up to the golfer to stay within the rules with these capabilities on devices in his or her possession during competition. The same is true for phone calling capability, for example. “It’s fine to call your family and let them know you’ll be late for dinner. But calling your coach for swing tips is of course not permitted under the Rules of Golf,” says Rich. Regarding specific apps, there are some that you may not have on your device, whether you use them or not. For example, green slope-reading capability is not permitted on dedicated GPS or laser rangefinders, nor is it permitted on smartphones and other multi-function electronic devices, says Rich. Simply having a green-slope reading app or functionality on your device is enough to make it non-conforming, and to disqualify the golfer. However, a conforming golf GPS smartphone app that provides distances is still permitted.
The bottom line? Keep using conforming dedicated GPS devices and smartphone apps when the local rule permitting them is in effect, taking care to keep in mind the letter and intent of the rules as clarified above."

MiniGolf

PGL wrote: »

I have got some interesting feedback from the makers of the GolfShot iPhone App. You can read the responses below, but in summary, an app is legal as long as it can only measure distance.

Furthermore, the iPhone must not have apps installed which can measure slopes, temperature and wind (speed and direction) - don't ask me how this would work in reality i.e. can you really see golf club officials scrolling through your iPhone making sure you have none of these apps?. And if you really want to be pedantic, whats stopping you downloading these apps once you are out on the course? It looks like they are relying on everyone's integrity similar to keeping scores etc.

So in theory if a club has a local rule permitting the use of DMDs, then a distance measuring iPhone App falls under this category. However they recommend that you check with your club first.

Do clubs have local rules banning the use of mobile phones? If so then that rules out the iPhone straight away...

I'm just not convinced on this one as there are a lot of grey areas.

Anyways with regards to the thread on GPS friendly clubs, I wonder would it be an idea to modify it to include whether or not the club also permits iPhone Apps? - just a thought....

Response from makers of GolfShot:

Nice work there PGL....... It is far from crystal clear and as I think you have already said in another post the powers that be, The R & A, etc need to clarify these smart phones as they are getting more common. If they, the R & A, give a similar ruling as for dedicated DMD's, they can leave it up to individual clubs to decide to allow or not - as per DMD's. The only issue will be the other, non-conforming, apps that "possibly" be on the device. I would like to think that the integrity of the sport will prevent (reduce??) the abuse of the device's capabilities. I can hear some of you laughing at the last line......;). I know there are cheaters and they will always try to gain any opportunity wherever they can, but, MOST golfers are essentially honest when playing the game and as has been seen from other threads people even at the highest levels cheat!
I have Golfshot, as you know, but I have NOT used it in competition and would be inclined NOT to use it until the situation is clarified and/or I got clear instruction from an official in the club that I was playing in that it was ok!

EDIT: I have just read that article properly... DOH!! It seems it is OK to use a smart phone app as per the normal DMD rules!!

Kace

Here are the views of the Rules Guru - Barry Rhodes. I certainly wouldn't be chancing using an iPhone in competition, only to win and have some fecker dob you in quoting the R&A.


Golfers with iPhones Risk Disqualification
Posted: 24 Jul 2010 02:12 PM PDT

A warning: this is probably my most controversial item since I started blogging on the Rules of Golf nearly two years ago.

Most golfers who play in organised competitions, whether they are run by their national associations or by their Club or Society, will be aware that the use of distance measuring devices are not permitted on the course, unless the Committee has introduced a Local Rule specifically allowing them. A note to Rule 14-3 states;
“Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only.”
You will see that I have highlighted the word “only”. A very important clarification to this change to the Rules by the R&A and USGA, that became effective in January 2006, is that the device must measure distance only; it must not be capable of measuring other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature.

Now, it seems that there could be a problem with players taking an iPhone 3GS onto the course, apart from the obvious nuisance that can be caused by players making an receiving telephone calls, which I am sure most of us consider to be extremely bad manners and highly disrespectful to others on the course. My understanding is that all iPhone 3GSs, and presumably iPhone 4s, have a hardware feature that provides a compass reading to complement GPS data (a magnetometer) and that this cannot be deleted. Decision 14-3/4 states;
Q. A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?
A. Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.
Like many others I have spoken to, I am not sure how the use of a compass can be of much assistance to a player on the golf course, as it is obviously a matter of public information where North is and by studying a map of the course you can therefore tell in which direction you are playing, where the wind is coming from etc. However, it is clear that any device that may be used as a compass is not permitted on the course.

In a joint statement from the R&A and USGA, issued in November 2009, they list features that would render a device nonconforming and then, surprisingly affirm;

“There would be a breach of the Rules even if all of the above features can be switched off or disengaged, and in fact are switched off or disengaged.”
The only conclusion that you can deduce from the above is that if any golfer takes an iPhone 3GS onto the course, whether or not it is switched on, and whether or not there is a Local Rule permitting the use of distance measuring devices, they should be disqualified from any competition under the Rules of Golf. That should cause a few disputes in monthly medal competitions around the world!

Paradoxically, the R&A have recently published, and are now promoting, their official ‘Rules App’ for the iPhone, iPad and iTouch. It allows users to quickly find information about all aspects of the laws of the game from etiquette, through a summary of the fundamental Rules, to the complete Rules of Golf (2008 – 2011).

“The Rules App is a fantastic reference tool that allows you to find any Rules information you might require, on the move,” said David Rickman, The R&A’s Director of Rules and Equipment Standards.

Maybe you will find it as ironic as I do that, strictly speaking, if you take this officially approved R&A app onto the golf course on an iPhone 3GS you should be disqualified from any competition. Do I approve of this situation? Definitely not!

Good golfing,

Barry

PGL

A good and very interesting find by Kace.

My general view is that golf courses are not the place for phones. However I think it is ridiculous to think that the compass on the iPhone is gonna help you determine wind direction....

What do you guys think? And more interestingly what do the golf app manufacturers think?

stringy

I think the wording needs to be clarified as you can debate the meaning of it. Compare:

"The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only.”

and my suggested abridged version,

"The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that only measure or gauge distance”

Subtle difference, but if they are to ban iphones, they need to utilise the second reading.Their current interpretation reads that the player must only measure distance with a device. The second abridged reading interprets the rule to read that a player may only use a device that solely measures distance, thus effectively banning the use of an iphone as it can do a whole host of things.

thoughts?

BunkerMentality

A bit of googling gave me this... the interpretation of the northern california golf association:

NCGA’S CLARIFICATION ON SMART PHONE APPLICATIONS

The USGA and R&A has issued a joint statement regarding the use of electronic devices. Decision 14-3/0.5 states that any device used for distance measuring may not contain any other functions that are prohibited (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature). The joint statement states that multi-functional devices such as mobile phones may not be used as a distance measuring device if the device contains any prohibited features.

Many phones have built-in applications that are difficult, if not impossible to delete. For example, the iPhone 3GS ships with a compass application pre-installed. A compass is one of the devices that may not be used on a golf course (Decision 14-3/4). It is not possible to remove the compass application from the iPhone 3GS. Therefore, it is prohibited to use it as an Electronic Distance Measuring Device under the Rules of Golf. The penalty for using a prohibited device is disqualification.

The iPhone 3G does not have the Compass application or any other prohibited applications pre-installed. As long as the user has not installed a prohibited application, the iPhone 3G may be used as an Electronic Distance Measuring Device.

Before using any electronic distance measuring device during a competition, the player should ensure that it conforms to the Rules. Any doubt of conformity will be resolved against the player

Ian10

Hi Guys,

Im wondering do you know where i can get a good holder for my iphone taht will clip on to my golf bag. I just downloaded Golfshop gps and dont want to be able to use it without having to put it in my pocket.

Any help would be great,

Ian

Tony_Montana

Is there any clarity on this issue?

Keano

Please don't dig up 5 year old threads.