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UKIPT Killarney Rip Off
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29-06-2010 1:31pm#1
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Hi Kieran,
I'll try and address your points 1 by 1 as best i can.
1.-That is pretty much the standard rake at festival across ireland (ones held outside of casinos). Now I wasnt working in the cash room over the weekend, so I didnt hear much about it, but i just spoke with Derry who was in there for the whole weekend working, and he said there was very little complaint. I also asked matt, who told me he had 1 complaint from an english player, but when Matt explained about the extra running costs involved in running a festival in a hotel rather than a casino (including the lack of table games in the hotel festival), the players attitude changed and he was very understanding of it.
You say about the value of the rake like it is in the macau at the moment,(€1 in €20, capped at €5). Do you think if they were dependant on poker rake to pay wages atc atc that he rake would be this size?) Would I be right in thinking that they were double hat until the Bank came into opposition?
The casinos out foreign have an exorbarant rake, a rake that would scare you actually. The only reason they can get away with that is that they dont have any opposition at all, as hotel festival games are not really allowed. If festivals here drop their rake so that the players have is like where you normally play, then them companies will go out of buisness, and the casinos would have free reign. Its a vicious circle really.
2-Im not sure if the €500 euro game players were fed or not, but i'll take your word for it that they werent. What i do know is that there were approx 500 players meal voucher distributed and used, as well as 250 staff meals What I can tell you is that the tournament reg fees collected over the weekend was not enough to meet the staff wages, not to mind the associated staff costs as in accommadation,meals, etc etc.
The days of not feeding players dinner out of a €50 reg fee, is fast approaching. Its just not viable.
JP gave some serious examples there with the Monte carlo EPT where there was a €600 reg fee and no food whatsoever.
I played in the WSOP main event 2 years ago, and I got a $10 voucher for the resteraunt.
His most telling example was the €1500 French game with a €150 reg. No food, and a 40 minute clock!
I really think the irish poker players never had it so good with regards to value for money.
Ands it when we play abroad we realise that.
3,-Im not really qualified to answer the questions on the food prices, but i'll give my thoughts on it from what I saw and heard. I thought the daily buffet served in the poker venue was excellent value for money for €15. This included a choice of 4 main courses, as much salad and veg as you wanted, and a desert as well. Everybody was saying how excellent this buffet was, and i have to say it was the best I have seen yet at any of the tournaments we have held in the Glen eagle. Obviousley, they have taken note of previous complaints. None of these meals were served on plastic plates, they were served on dinner plates with proper cutlery.
As for the bar food, the bar food in the chestnut tree bar (which is the bar just outside the INEC, served their bar food on proper delph and cutlery. The bar food from the bar within the INEC was served in baskets and on disposable plates and plastic cutlery. This service is a 24 hour service, and even though I'm not privvy to the hotels policies, I presume this is done for safety reasons where there is a 24 hour bar in operation. I presume a proper knife and fork is a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands at 4am. I was in the INEC at the harley davidson rally a few weeks ago, and it was much the same. So I presume, thats the hotel policy.
The food prices in this 24 hour bar are probably more than normal (only 1 I know is the one I had each night which was a basket of chicken goujans with coleslaw and chips for €10.50), but I guess thats much the same as a nightclub charging more for drink than a pub does because it has extra expenses. Im sure the glen eagle charge more too for putting on a 24 hour service.
4.-Pokerstars goody bag.
I am sure you are right about the super sat winners in the macau, fitz and the eglington were to get pokerstars goody bags, as I remember that myself. I dont know who you asked for one, but I do know you didnt ask me
. Of course your entitled to one of the bags, and I will make sure you get it. But its no like they were thrown behind a counter in the INEC and anyone could pick one up. They and all Pokerstars equipment was well locked away and controlled by Pokerstars. Im pretty sure Fintan had arranged for the bags for the named super sats, and i can guarantee you and anyone else that qualified through them 3 sats that they will get their bag if they already didnt. It defeats the purpose anyway, because you and the other qualifiers should have been wearing the Pokerstars gear during the weekend.
So point taken, and apologies for the inconvenience.
The next time we'll meet up, we'll have a good long chat about all this. It doesnt matter what way I might spin it or that you might spin it, the simple fact is that its getting near to impossible to run one of these big festivals and be guaranteed to make a profit out of it.
Because of the roberries across europe this year at festivals, responsible organisers now have the added costs of installing security cameras, 24 hour security guards and other non visible security measures to protect the monies, which are essentially, the property of the players. Bet the players dont even think about that, but the organisers do have to.
Its grand to start talking about voting with yere feet and boycotting events, etc etc, but you must remember that it was festivals like these that changed the face of poker in Ireland and gave the players the value they now have. (I remember playing €100 games with a 3k chip stack). I can assure you Kieran, operators are not getting rich out of running these festivals. (look at JP's figures as an example). He gives outstanding value, but his festival loses money not considering the fact that he put hundres of hours into it over a few months. Do you think the players cared?
I understand where your coming from on the rake charges as I know you play for a living, and these things are of huge importance to you. And we run these festivals trying to make a living too, and if we could charge less and make it profitable, I can assure you, we would.
Believe it or not, we are number cruncing at the moment after the weekend, and Im already aware that once I take my expenses into account, and allow for the 70+ hours I put in over the 5 days of the festival, and another 2 days for set-up and take down, I'd have more to show for it if i was working for someone else! But Im not coming the poor mouth here. It was a great tournament, it ran without a problem, it was great to work with Pokerstars and see their machine in action, and its another experience under my belt.
Onwards and upwards!!!0 -
Hi Kieran,
I'll try and address your points 1 by 1 as best i can.
1.-That is pretty much the standard rake at festival across ireland (ones held outside of casinos). Now I wasnt working in the cash room over the weekend, so I didnt hear much about it, but i just spoke with Derry who was in there for the whole weekend working, and he said there was very little complaint. I also asked matt, who told me he had 1 complaint from an english player, but when Matt explained about the extra running costs involved in running a festival in a hotel rather than a casino (including the lack of table games in the hotel festival), the players attitude changed and he was very understanding of it.
You say about the value of the rake like it is in the macau at the moment,(€1 in €20, capped at €5). Do you think if they were dependant on poker rake to pay wages atc atc that he rake would be this size?) Would I be right in thinking that they were double hat until the Bank came into opposition?
The casinos out foreign have an exorbarant rake, a rake that would scare you actually. The only reason they can get away with that is that they dont have any opposition at all, as hotel festival games are not really allowed. If festivals here drop their rake so that the players have is like where you normally play, then them companies will go out of buisness, and the casinos would have free reign. Its a vicious circle really.
2-Im not sure if the €500 euro game players were fed or not, but i'll take your word for it that they werent. What i do know is that there were approx 500 players meal voucher distributed and used, as well as 250 staff meals What I can tell you is that the tournament reg fees collected over the weekend was not enough to meet the staff wages, not to mind the associated staff costs as in accommadation,meals, etc etc.
The days of not feeding players dinner out of a €50 reg fee, is fast approaching. Its just not viable.
JP gave some serious examples there with the Monte carlo EPT where there was a €600 reg fee and no food whatsoever.
I played in the WSOP main event 2 years ago, and I got a $10 voucher for the resteraunt.
His most telling example was the €1500 French game with a €150 reg. No food, and a 40 minute clock!
I really think the irish poker players never had it so good with regards to value for money.
Ands it when we play abroad we realise that.
3,-Im not really qualified to answer the questions on the food prices, but i'll give my thoughts on it from what I saw and heard. I thought the daily buffet served in the poker venue was excellent value for money for €15. This included a choice of 4 main courses, as much salad and veg as you wanted, and a desert as well. Everybody was saying how excellent this buffet was, and i have to say it was the best I have seen yet at any of the tournaments we have held in the Glen eagle. Obviousley, they have taken note of previous complaints. None of these meals were served on plastic plates, they were served on dinner plates with proper cutlery.
As for the bar food, the bar food in the chestnut tree bar (which is the bar just outside the INEC, served their bar food on proper delph and cutlery. The bar food from the bar within the INEC was served in baskets and on disposable plates and plastic cutlery. This service is a 24 hour service, and even though I'm not privvy to the hotels policies, I presume this is done for safety reasons where there is a 24 hour bar in operation. I presume a proper knife and fork is a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands at 4am. I was in the INEC at the harley davidson rally a few weeks ago, and it was much the same. So I presume, thats the hotel policy.
The food prices in this 24 hour bar are probably more than normal (only 1 I know is the one I had each night which was a basket of chicken goujans with coleslaw and chips for €10.50), but I guess thats much the same as a nightclub charging more for drink than a pub does because it has extra expenses. Im sure the glen eagle charge more too for putting on a 24 hour service.
4.-Pokerstars goody bag.
I am sure you are right about the super sat winners in the macau, fitz and the eglington were to get pokerstars goody bags, as I remember that myself. I dont know who you asked for one, but I do know you didnt ask me. Of course your entitled to one of the bags, and I will make sure you get it. But its no like they were thrown behind a counter in the INEC and anyone could pick one up. They and all Pokerstars equipment was well locked away and controlled by Pokerstars. Im pretty sure Fintan had arranged for the bags for the named super sats, and i can guarantee you and anyone else that qualified through them 3 sats that they will get their bag if they already didnt. It defeats the purpose anyway, because you and the other qualifiers should have been wearing the Pokerstars gear during the weekend.
So point taken, and apologies for the inconvenience.
The next time we'll meet up, we'll have a good long chat about all this. It doesnt matter what way I might spin it or that you might spin it, the simple fact is that its getting near to impossible to run one of these big festivals and be guaranteed to make a profit out of it.
Because of the roberries across europe this year at festivals, responsible organisers now have the added costs of installing security cameras, 24 hour security guards and other non visible security measures to protect the monies, which are essentially, the property of the players. Bet the players dont even think about that, but the organisers do have to.
Its grand to start talking about voting with yere feet and boycotting events, etc etc, but you must remember that it was festivals like these that changed the face of poker in Ireland and gave the players the value they now have. (I remember playing €100 games with a 3k chip stack). I can assure you Kieran, operators are not getting rich out of running these festivals. (look at JP's figures as an example). He gives outstanding value, but his festival loses money not considering the fact that he put hundres of hours into it over a few months. Do you think the players cared?
I understand where your coming from on the rake charges as I know you play for a living, and these things are of huge importance to you. And we run these festivals trying to make a living too, and if we could charge less and make it profitable, I can assure you, we would.
Believe it or not, we are number cruncing at the moment after the weekend, and Im already aware that once I take my expenses into account, and allow for the 70+ hours I put in over the 5 days of the festival, and another 2 days for set-up and take down, I'd have more to show for it if i was working for someone else! But Im not coming the poor mouth here. It was a great tournament, it ran without a problem, it was great to work with Pokerstars and see their machine in action, and its another experience under my belt.
Onwards and upwards!!!
I was happily reading your post and nodding up until the point you started drawing comparisons with poker in France and Ireland.
France has the most bizarre gaming laws in the world, it's a bad comparison to make imo.
Any casino/private card club in France must pay 50% revenue on earnings and then they are obliged to make a yearly contributions to charitable organisations and licenses can be revoked on a yearly basis.
It probably works out around 55-60% tax on revenue.
I'm guessing you don't pay 55-60% tax on revenue generated from festivals?
Yes we do have it good here in Ireland in terms of live rake and complimentary food and beverage served at events and you do make some valid points.
If margins are getting tighter and tighter, it's up to you imo to figure out ways to increase margins without making the customer pay.
You could negotiate a better rate for the hotel and if they refuse, threaten to move venue(how much revenue will they lose?), you could re-negotiate the extent to which your sponsors participate financially, you could.....(insert idea here)
You get my point....
A good balance between renogiating running costs and passing costs on to players will go a long way towards a long term viable business plan.
my tuppence.0
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