Christianity on Judaism

Brown Bomber · 28-06-2010 7:16pm #1

This is the official position of The Texas Republican Party

Our policy (on Israel) is based on God's biblical promise to bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel and we further invite other nations and organizations to enjoy the benefits of that promise.

http://static.texastribune.org/media/documents/FINAL_2010_STATE_REPUBLICAN_PARTY_PLATFORM.pdf

I've only read random passages of the Bible so I wanted to ask more knowledgeable people if there is any truth in this statement.

Fanny Cradock · 28-06-2010 8:48pm

I don't believe so. Attempting to surmise international policy in one line is idiotic. I wonder why they assume that the State of Israel is automatically synonymous with the Biblical Land of Israel. Modern Israel is a secular state with a high proportion of secular Jews.

Overheal · 28-06-2010 8:54pm

Thats essentially the same line my boss offered me when I asked him about his opinion on Israel. The Hitler years didn't help dispel the biblical reference.

Brown Bomber · 29-06-2010 10:53pm

Thanks for the responses.

I've looked into it a little

Galatians 3:26-29 (New International Version)

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Is this to be understood that Christians according to Paul are the "chosen people"?

PDN · 29-06-2010 11:05pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Thanks for the responses.

I've looked into it a little

Galatians 3:26-29 (New International Version)

Is this to be understood that Christians according to Paul are the "chosen people"?

No, it would be more accurate to say that Christ is "the chosen Person", and we follow Him.

Brown Bomber · 29-06-2010 11:14pm

This part

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

says to me If you are a Christian you are the heir of Abraham who is the father of the Israelites.

That is what has me confused.

PDN · 29-06-2010 11:34pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This part

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

says to me If you are a Christian you are the heir of Abraham who is the father of the Israelites.

That is what has me confused.

So the promises and blessings of Abraham now bellong to each believer.

Btw, Abrahamis also the father of the Arabs (through Ishmael).

wolfsbane · 30-06-2010 3:50pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Thanks for the responses.

I've looked into it a little

Galatians 3:26-29 (New International Version)

Is this to be understood that Christians according to Paul are the "chosen people"?

Yes, Christians are God's elect/chosen people. He chose them to be His Son's and gave them to Him:
John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them...

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Israel the nation is still in a special relationship with God, in that it awaits the 'times of refreshing' when they will all recognise Jesus as their Messiah and be converted. In the meantime they are composed mostly of unbelievers, with only a small elect remnant.

The Church is first of all Jewish believers, with Gentile believers brought in as fellow-heirs of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Gentile majority does not alter the fact that the Church is the fulfilment of the New Covenant promise to Israel.

And when the nation converts, they all become part of the Church.

The issue of how our state relates to the State of Israel is the present concern. Some questions arise:
1. Should we support the existence of the Jewish nation? Certainly - God has a plan for them and they have His promises, so any persecution of them is especially wicked.

2. Should we support the existence of the State of Israel? Probably, as the best method of accomplishing (1).

3. Are we to back Israel in all it does? Certainly not. When a nation sins, no one should support that. Sadly, many Christians do not see how one can do 1 & 2 without 3.
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Brown Bomber · 30-06-2010 9:42pm

first of all sorry if my questions are amateurish, I do appreciate the answers though.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, Christians are God's elect/chosen people. He chose them to be His Son's and gave them to Him:

Israel the nation is still in a special relationship with God, in that it awaits the 'times of refreshing' when they will all recognise Jesus as their Messiah and be converted. In the meantime they are composed mostly of unbelievers, with only a small elect remnant.

So it is believed by Christians that Jews will repent and convert in the second coming of Jesus?

What has happened to all the Jew's souls who lived and died as Jews according to this position?

wolfsbane wrote: »

The Church is first of all Jewish believers, with Gentile believers brought in as fellow-heirs of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Gentile majority does not alter the fact that the Church is the fulfilment of the New Covenant promise to Israel.

As I understand it Jesus came to fulfill God's prophesy, fulfill the law and make the second covenant.

Does the second covenant replace the first covenant which established the Israelites as the "chosen people"? And as Jews don't consider Jesus as the Messiah do they accept the second covenant?

wolfsbane wrote: »

The issue of how our state relates to the State of Israel is the present concern. Some questions arise:
1. Should we support the existence of the Jewish nation? Certainly - God has a plan for them and they have His promises, so any persecution of them is especially wicked.

On pragmatic grounds I couldn't disagree more. Personally I don't believe any nation should be established nevermind supported on supremacist grounds. That goes for Islamic/Jewish/Christian take your pick.

wolfsbane wrote: »

2. Should we support the existence of the State of Israel? Probably, as the best method of accomplishing (1).

My own view on that would be that Zionism has bastardised Judaism into nationalism devoid of any faith in God. And if you support Israel you are therefore supporting nationalism and not Judaism.

Don't orthodox Jews believe they are divinely required to have no land of their own until the building of the 3rd temple? Some sects at least do.

wolfsbane wrote: »

3. Are we to back Israel in all it does? Certainly not. When a nation sins, no one should support that. Sadly, many Christians do not see how one can do 1 & 2 without 3.

Good point. Very true. Aren't Israelis supposed to be beacons of Godliness to the world as a conditon of the first covenant?
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

mathepac · 30-06-2010 10:33pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

... Is this to be understood that Christians according to Paul are the "chosen people"?

Western doctrinaire churches that call themselves Christian are in fact Pauline and have moved away from the teachings and messages of Jesus Christ and the fundamentals laid down in the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments.

Paul's position is that all any believer needs for salvation is faith, but in Paul's case this means faith in him and not faith in God's word. Read any introduction to or treatise on Paul's letter to the Galatians and you will begin to understand the powerful PR and self-promotion job Paul did and how he created a divide, unhealed to this day in the West, between the Jews, God's Chosen People and the Judeo-Christian sect started by Jesus.

The question is do you believe Paul's PR or the teachings of Jesus? Read Paul's letter to the Galatians carefully and with an open mind and ask yourself that question. Now ask yourself another :- Why is one man's PR and self-promotion material included in a book that purports to be the word of God?

Fanny Cradock · 30-06-2010 11:03pm

mathepac wrote: »

Western doctrinaire churches that call themselves Christian are in fact Pauline and have moved away from the teachings and messages of Jesus Christ and the fundamentals laid down in the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments.

Paul's position is that all any believer needs for salvation is faith, but in Paul's case this means faith in him and not faith in God's word. Read any introduction to or treatise on Paul's letter to the Galatians and you will begin to understand the powerful PR and self-promotion job Paul did and how he created a divide, unhealed to this day in the West, between the Jews, God's Chosen People and the Judeo-Christian sect started by Jesus.

The question is do you believe Paul's PR or the teachings of Jesus? Read Paul's letter to the Galatians carefully and with an open mind and ask yourself that question. Now ask yourself another :- Why is one man's PR and self-promotion material included in a book that purports to be the word of God?

Wow. So the apostles were duped by Paul? I'm curious, do you then believe that the ceremonial laws still apply? And do you keep them?

mathepac · 01-07-2010 12:18am

If as Paul contends, obeying the laws of Moses is unnecessary to qualify as a Christian, why are all the books of the Old Testament included in the Christian (more correctly Pauline) Bible? According to Paul, who in his letter claims to have a direct line of communication to God, they are excess to requirements. So why are they there?

According to Paul, who in the first part of his letter claims to be an apostle, there is only one gospel, which Jesus revealed to him, making all other "gospels" heretical, irrelevant or both. Why therefore, if Paul is correct and his followers seem to believe he is, does the Christian Bible not just consist of Paul's writings? Why not discard everything before Paul's letter to the Romans and end the Bible with his letter to Philemon? 90 or so pages of Paul's egotistical writings and bingo! the whole relationship with Judaism and the Jews is ended for the Paulines, as Judaism has no relevance.

In Galatians Paul brags about being some kind of super-Jew before his conversion and by being singled out by God before birth as an apostle. He writes that he spoke to only two apostles and presumably laid out to them the new order ("Hey guys, here's the story. I am the Capo di tutti capi, so what I say goes, capisce?") and then sets off on his mission to preach his gospel to Gentiles, presumably because the Jews were irrelevant.

So for followers of Paul in the West the link from Paulinism back to Judaism is broken and according to Paul the link's of no relevance.

However, for Christians, those people who choose to ignore Paul's stuff, there is a rich tradition of a long-term relationship with the One God they can learn from and love in.

Fanny Cradock · 01-07-2010 5:59am

I don't have time to reply properly, but it appears we read Paul very differently. Galatians, I feel, is one of the most extraordinary books of the NT.

wolfsbane · 01-07-2010 8:12pm

Brown Bomber said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Yes, Christians are God's elect/chosen people. He chose them to be His Son's and gave them to Him:

Israel the nation is still in a special relationship with God, in that it awaits the 'times of refreshing' when they will all recognise Jesus as their Messiah and be converted. In the meantime they are composed mostly of unbelievers, with only a small elect remnant.
So it is believed by Christians that Jews will repent and convert in the second coming of Jesus?

Not by all Christians, but it is a substantial, historic Evangelical position.

What has happened to all the Jew's souls who lived and died as Jews according to this position?

Same as for all Gentiles who lived and died without trusting in the Messiah - hell:
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The Church is first of all Jewish believers, with Gentile believers brought in as fellow-heirs of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Gentile majority does not alter the fact that the Church is the fulfilment of the New Covenant promise to Israel.
As I understand it Jesus came to fulfill God's prophesy, fulfill the law and make the second covenant.

Correct.

Does the second covenant replace the first covenant which established the Israelites as the "chosen people"?

You mistake the Mosiac Covenant (the Old or First Covenant) with the Abrahamic Covenant, which latter established the 'chosen people'. The New Covenant replaces the Mosaic Covenant, but fulfills the Abrahamic one.
See Galatians 3.

And as Jews don't consider Jesus as the Messiah do they accept the second covenant?

No, only converted Jews accept the New Covenant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The issue of how our state relates to the State of Israel is the present concern. Some questions arise:
1. Should we support the existence of the Jewish nation? Certainly - God has a plan for them and they have His promises, so any persecution of them is especially wicked.
On pragmatic grounds I couldn't disagree more. Personally I don't believe any nation should be established nevermind supported on supremacist grounds. That goes for Islamic/Jewish/Christian take your pick.

God established them as special, not man. He is free to choose any man or nation He sees fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
2. Should we support the existence of the State of Israel? Probably, as the best method of accomplishing (1).
My own view on that would be that Zionism has bastardised Judaism into nationalism devoid of any faith in God. And if you support Israel you are therefore supporting nationalism and not Judaism.

Exactly. It would be wrong of us to support Judaism, as it is an apostate faith. But it is right of us to support the existence of the Jewish people, for God has confirmed their place in His plans. That leads us to ask if we should support the existence of the State of Israel. Given historical persecutions of the Jews, I think it reasonable they have a homeland of their own to defend.

Don't orthodox Jews believe they are divinely required to have no land of their own until the building of the 3rd temple? Some sects at least do.

Correct. And I agree with them that the Jews have no religious claim to the land. They are in sin and cannot expect God's favour as of right. My support for the State is based solely on the pragmatic grounds of their protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
3. Are we to back Israel in all it does? Certainly not. When a nation sins, no one should support that. Sadly, many Christians do not see how one can do 1 & 2 without 3.
Good point. Very true. Aren't Israelis supposed to be beacons of Godliness to the world as a conditon of the first covenant?

Indeed, and they failed to be so. Christians should learn by their mistakes!
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Brown Bomber · 01-07-2010 9:01pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Brown Bomber said:

Not by all Christians, but it is a substantial, historic Evangelical position.

Same as for all Gentiles who lived and died without trusting in the Messiah - hell:
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Correct.

You mistake the Mosiac Covenant (the Old or First Covenant) with the Abrahamic Covenant, which latter established the 'chosen people'. The New Covenant replaces the Mosaic Covenant, but fulfills the Abrahamic one.
See Galatians 3.

No, only converted Jews accept the New Covenant.

God established them as special, not man. He is free to choose any man or nation He sees fit.

Exactly. It would be wrong of us to support Judaism, as it is an apostate faith. But it is right of us to support the existence of the Jewish people, for God has confirmed their place in His plans. That leads us to ask if we should support the existence of the State of Israel. Given historical persecutions of the Jews, I think it reasonable they have a homeland of their own to defend.

Correct. And I agree with them that the Jews have no religious claim to the land. They are in sin and cannot expect God's favour as of right. My support for the State is based solely on the pragmatic grounds of their protection.

Indeed, and they failed to be so. Christians should learn by their mistakes!
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Thank you for enlightening me, you certainly know your stuff. It is all very interesting - I think I'll have to look into the different covenants further.

On a related note the Methodist church has announced on boycott on illegal West Bank produce and plans to review "whether Zionism was compatible with Methodist beliefs"
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/33594/fury-methodists-vote-boycott-israel

wolfsbane · 02-07-2010 7:12pm

mathepac said:

Western doctrinaire churches that call themselves Christian are in fact Pauline and have moved away from the teachings and messages of Jesus Christ and the fundamentals laid down in the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments.

Nonsense. Care to offer an example?

Paul's position is that all any believer needs for salvation is faith,

Correct.

but in Paul's case this means faith in him and not faith in God's word.

Rubbish. Again, show the proof.

Read any introduction to or treatise on Paul's letter to the Galatians and you will begin to understand the powerful PR and self-promotion job Paul did and how he created a divide, unhealed to this day in the West, between the Jews, God's Chosen People and the Judeo-Christian sect started by Jesus.

Commentators may ridicule Paul, but that does not make them right. False accusations are easy to make, impossible to defend. What of all the commentators who hold Paul to be a faithful apostle of Jesus Christ? Or have you only read the liberals?

Paul was not responsible for the divide. It is unbelieving Israel that bears that shame.

And why stop at Paul if you seek to apportion blame for division with the majority of Jews? Jesus had much to say that was no different from Paul:
John 8:37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

And He even foretells the desolation and captivity of Israel for their unbelief:
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The question is do you believe Paul's PR or the teachings of Jesus? Read Paul's letter to the Galatians carefully and with an open mind and ask yourself that question.

I have - many times. Paul opens out the doctrines of the New Covenant which Jesus inaugurated. Jesus had promised His apostles the filling of the Holy Spirit to enable them to do this infallibly.

Now ask yourself another :- Why is one man's PR and self-promotion material included in a book that purports to be the word of God?

Paul is defending the gospel God gave him to preach. He is reminding the Galatians that he was authorised to preach it, so they ought not to depart from it to 'another' gospel. True history is not PR and self-promotion, just the facts.

And the Church from that time has recognised Paul's veracity. His writings are alongside Peter, James and John's. Peter specifically calls Paul's writings Scripture.
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2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

wolfsbane · 02-07-2010 7:34pm

mathepac said:

If as Paul contends, obeying the laws of Moses is unnecessary to qualify as a Christian, why are all the books of the Old Testament included in the Christian (more correctly Pauline) Bible? According to Paul, who in his letter claims to have a direct line of communication to God, they are excess to requirements. So why are they there?

Because they are part of the historical record God has given us. From Creation to Acts. The Law of Moses had its place and purpose, then it was fulfilled by Christ and abolished so that the New Covenant would come in.

According to Paul, who in the first part of his letter claims to be an apostle, there is only one gospel, which Jesus revealed to him, making all other "gospels" heretical, irrelevant or both.

Yes, Jesus revealed the one true gospel to Paul. But He preached it Himself and had all His apostles preach it. Paul makes no claim to a gospel different to this.

Why therefore, if Paul is correct and his followers seem to believe he is, does the Christian Bible not just consist of Paul's writings? Why not discard everything before Paul's letter to the Romans and end the Bible with his letter to Philemon?

Because Paul is merely another apostle, one born out of time but equal to any of the rest. He preaches the same gospel.

90 or so pages of Paul's egotistical writings and bingo! the whole relationship with Judaism and the Jews is ended for the Paulines, as Judaism has no relevance.

Judaism is ended, but not God's relationship with the Jews, as Paul makes clear in Romans.

In Galatians Paul brags about being some kind of super-Jew before his conversion and by being singled out by God before birth as an apostle. He writes that he spoke to only two apostles and presumably laid out to them the new order ("Hey guys, here's the story. I am the Capo di tutti capi, so what I say goes, capisce?") and then sets off on his mission to preach his gospel to Gentiles, presumably because the Jews were irrelevant.

Completely skewed. Paul made no claim to be superior to the other apostles. He merely reported what Christ had committed to him and the other apostles agreed. Nor did he solely go to the gentiles - in fact, he went first to the Jews in every place and only to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected him.

So for followers of Paul in the West the link from Paulinism back to Judaism is broken and according to Paul the link's of no relevance.

Not at all. The New Covenant is the fulfilment of the promises to the Jewish fathers - what the believers in OT Israel looked for. The Old Covenant was unable to save them, because it depended on their perfection. The New Covenant depends on Christ's perfection and He enables His people to keep it.

However, for Christians, those people who choose to ignore Paul's stuff, there is a rich tradition of a long-term relationship with the One God they can learn from and love in.

Those who ignore Paul's stuff are not Christians. They have fallen into the pit Paul warned the Galatians about:
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
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John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Christianity on Judaism

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