Software Contracting

anronmor

Hi All,
I'm 7 years into my career, have plenty of .net experience and have headed up a few big projects in my time. After returning from travelling I took a job earning 50 K p.a. but with tax etc. I'm finding it's just not that great a salary.
I know, plently of people are out of work and I should be glad of a job but I'm considering a move to contracting
A to earn more money
B to get more varied experience
b To get some experience so I can travel and contract as I go.

Can anyone in the business tell me:

How much money as a daily rate would I need to earn to justify leaving my current job?

What .net technology areas are in demand in Ireland / Worldwide?
I hear sharepoint is always in demand but a mare to work with
I've worked mostly on backend stuff such as webservices / comms so far.

What is the market like outside Dublin? Am thinking anywhere on the west coast will suit.

Thanks

daigo75

Actually, it seems that 50k is above the average. However, to answer your question, I remember finding a report with the lower, average and higher rates. For a C# Developer, the average was 300-375 Euro/day.

anronmor

thanks for the reply,

I was wondering what 375 per day would work out on a per annum basis.
E.g. what tax rates would you end up paying etc.

daigo75

I'd say 375 is the top of the bracket, so I'd expect less for a longer contract. I know people working for 300-320 per day on longer contracts. Of course, then you must consider the type of job.

I'm not an expert on taxation, so I'll leave the answers to more competent people.

BostonB

Just talking about gross. 300x5=1500 per week. Say 6 weeks not working, holidays, sick, between contracts so 1500x46= €69,000 gross. So you can adjust that if working less, or an a different rate. Wouldn't take much to knock that down to close to 50k.

markpb

daigo75 wrote: »

Actually, it seems that 50k is above the average.

Do you mean for contract or permanent? I'd be surprised if 50k was average for someone with 7 years experience.

Zulu

...don't forget paying your pension (by yourself), your health insurance (by yourself), and if you're sensible income protection (by yourself).
TBH there's a lot to be said for having paid holidays & sick leave.

daigo75

markpb wrote: »

Do you mean for contract or permanent? I'd be surprised if 50k was average for someone with 7 years experience.

I mean for permanent. Even with more experience offers aren't much higher than that, unless you go to management levels. Or, at least, I haven't found many.

Edit: you can search for "Salary Guide 2010", you will see that most of these guides indicate 50k as the reference for an experienced C# Developer.

BostonB

Zulu wrote: »

...don't forget paying your pension (by yourself), your health insurance (by yourself), and if you're sensible income protection (by yourself).
TBH there's a lot to be said for having paid holidays & sick leave.

All that is not as much as you think. But it all adds up if the contract rates are low, and you miss a few weeks between contracts, or out sick etc. So you should alway put money aside for this.

kayos

Rates for a good software contract? 300 and up. 300 and above outside dublin, 400 and above is doable in Dublin again.

West coast? Contracting? You'll be lucky, not much happening in Galway any way. Shannon has a few bits now and then.

One other side is once you start contracting you will avoid taking days off. That two week holiday in the canaries will now cost you the price of the holiday + spending money + 10 x your daily rate.

Zulu

BostonB wrote: »

All that is not as much as you think. But it all adds up if the contract rates are low, and you miss a few weeks between contracts, or out sick etc. So you should alway put money aside for this.

(I'm a contractor btw.)
VHI €xxx per month. (from your net)
Income protection €xxx per month (from net)
Pension €xxxx depends when & what you want to retire on, but there's no company helping you out. (granted it's from gross)

It all adds up and quickly will put your net similar to that of a permy. And you don't have the comfort or security of a permy.

If you're on a low rate (and in the current market, rates are low) you'll be better off in permy work. I wouldn't be so quick to jump ship is all I'm saying.

Naturally, if you're on a good rate it's worth it.

BostonB

Your assuming that a permanent role has all those things.

These days thats less common, as is job security.

How much per month do reckon all that is worth? 500, 1000?

Zulu

BostonB wrote: »

Your assuming that a permanent role has all those things.

Good point.

These days thats less common, as is job security.

Well job security is always better than 6 months in fairness. And 6 months seems to be the new 12 months these days.

How much per month do reckon all that is worth? 500, 1000?

Honestly, about €1000 net per month I reckon (off the top of my head). So read it that I'd expect a contract to be at least €12000 net more to me if I was leaving a permy job. What do you reckon yourself?

Mad Benny

I was a contractor for about 8 years. My accountant reckoned that you should be earning at least 50% more than an equivalent permanent job or it's not worth your while.

There are benefits in how you calculate your tax and expenses but also costs. You can get away with not using an accountant now but you would really need to know what you are doing. When I wound up my company it costs over €800.

One big thing to consider is being out of work. You won't get dole if you are a registered director of a limited company (many of the companies I worked for insisted on this) or a sole trader.

BostonB

Zulu wrote: »

...Honestly, about €1000 net per month I reckon (off the top of my head). So read it that I'd expect a contract to be at least €12000 net more to me if I was leaving a permy job. What do you reckon yourself?

Well it depends which health plan, and how much you can afford to put into a pension. It could range from 0 to 1000 but no more I'd say.

Zulu

Are you contracting yourself?

In terms of the amount you pay into a pension, assuming your not 20 years old, and assuming you want to actually retire before you're 75, you're going to be paying closer to the €1000 mark.

BostonB

Was contracting a few years back, but left it for a perm role. Funny enough I was considering going back to contracting.

What you want to put in a pension and what you can afford to put in a pension are two entirely different things. That was my point.

Zulu

True. But if you try to compare what you would have to be putting in when contracting to get a similar perm pension... (..was my point)

AARRRRGH

markpb wrote: »

Do you mean for contract or permanent? I'd be surprised if 50k was average for someone with 7 years experience.

Speaking as someone who hire .net developers regularly, - For Dublin €50 is on the low side for your experience for perm.
Contracting you should be able to get €400 per day easily. Would have been a bit more a couple of years ago.
I do get the odd person who is actually good and settles for €350 a day, but €400 is more the norm. A lot of people asking for less than €300 it turns out arent even worth that much. There is a reason they are settling low.


I also have to hire people in London and the rates are higher there.

Ive no idea what you could get in the West though.

And perm is absolutely no more secure than contract. A common misconception. Perm can be let go at any time too.

daigo75

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Speaking as someone who hire .net developers regularly, - For Dublin €50 is on the low side for your experience for perm.
Contracting you should be able to get €400 per day easily. Would have been a bit more a couple of years ago.
I do get the odd person who is actually good and settles for €350 a day, but €400 is more the norm. A lot of people asking for less than €300 it turns out arent even worth that much. There is a reason they are settling low.

That's good to know. I have 12 years experience in Development (not just C#), but I've almost never been offered more than 50K. Perhaps I should give it another try!

AARRRRGH

daigo75 wrote: »

That's good to know. I have 12 years experience in Development (not just C#), but I've almost never been offered more than 50K. Perhaps I should give it another try!

Perhaps you should read up on negotiation.
We generally start with an offer of €50k. Nice round number. But people who are good at the job rarely bite. Say a ,Net developer with 12 year experience could come back and ask for €60+ We'll end up settling around 60.

We'll also ask at the interview if they have applied anywhere else. Innocent question. But if they havent we then have the upper hand in the negotiations, which are done via the agent.

Any agent worth their salt will explain the lay of the land to you, but some of them will try to get you to take any amount at all. Suits me, but its not in the best interest of their client.

Get yourself a good agent and ask them about the mechanics of getting a job for the best rate. If they dont give you the right answers, get another agent. Remember - they work for you.

If I was a developer again i'd be going to London to be honest.
See screenshot attached

daigo75

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Perhaps you should read up on negotiation.
We generally start with an offer of €50k. Nice round number. But people who are good at the job rarely bite. Say a ,Net developer with 12 year experience could come back and ask for €60+ We'll end up settling around 60.

We'll also ask at the interview if they have applied anywhere else. Innocent question. But if they havent we then have the upper hand in the negotiations, which are done via the agent.

Thanks for the tips, I'll take them into account next time.

yop

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Speaking as someone who hire .net developers regularly, - For Dublin €50 is on the low side for your experience for perm.
Contracting you should be able to get €400 per day easily. Would have been a bit more a couple of years ago.
I do get the odd person who is actually good and settles for €350 a day, but €400 is more the norm. A lot of people asking for less than €300 it turns out arent even worth that much. There is a reason they are settling low.


I also have to hire people in London and the rates are higher there.

Ive no idea what you could get in the West though.

And perm is absolutely no more secure than contract. A common misconception. Perm can be let go at any time too.

The West is dead with regards contracting, the VERY odd one appears in the midlands but the max rate I have seen is 300.
On most of the VB.NET contracts I have seen in the last few months, even in Dublin, they are also about 300 euro. Not unless they are very specific (Banking etc).

AARRRRGH

yop wrote: »

The West is dead with regards contracting, the VERY odd one appears in the midlands but the max rate I have seen is 300.
On most of the VB.NET contracts I have seen in the last few months, even in Dublin, they are also about 300 euro. Not unless they are very specific (Banking etc).

VB.net is dead. I actually dont know anyone hiring VB.Net developers at the moment. When people find them in a situation where too many people with their skills are looking for a dwindling number of jobs, its time to move on. They can never command the salaries of those in demand. VB or VB.Net is dwindling, and has been for some time now.

yop

AARRRRGH wrote: »

VB.net is dead. I actually dont know anyone hiring VB.Net developers at the moment. When people find them in a situation where too many people with their skills are looking for a dwindling number of jobs, its time to move on. They can never command the salaries of those in demand. VB or VB.Net is dwindling, and has been for some time now.

ok... not sure what areas you are hiring for but saying vb.net is dead is a tad OTT. There are plenty of jobs in vb.net.

I am sure there would be plenty who work in VB.NET who will tell you the same.

AARRRRGH

yop wrote: »

ok... not sure what areas you are hiring for but saying vb.net is dead is a tad OTT. There are plenty of jobs in vb.net.

I am sure there would be plenty who work in VB.NET who will tell you the same.

OK maybe not dead but heading or life support.
We hire some VB.net devs, but a fraction of our total hires. And only on projects that have been written in VB.Net and are now being migrated for whatever reason.

Its obvious from the rates VB.net attracts compared to other disciplines that there are far applicants for each VB.net job than say C#. Therefore more competition between devs which means rates go down. Thats why VB cant hold its own. If you are happy in VB then stay in it, but watch rates fall while the other rates go up.

cronos

What are the rates / availability for testers these days?

AARRRRGH

cronos wrote: »

What are the rates / availability for testers these days?

All our testers in Dublin are being hired via the WPP scheme at the moment.
There are far more applicants than jobs for testing, so its an employers market there. (You can look up UK rates on the web if you are interested in going there - thats what i would do)
Hiring of VB.Net devs is about to go the same way. Management were already talking about putting vb.net jobs up on the fas site as those devs are easy to get.

A sad abuse of the system, but what can you do. The top brass see a way to save some money offered by the government and they take it. Its unfair on the ordinary working man, but it increases companies profits. You know which one the government feel is more important.

KarlDrake

O.P.
I'm hearing good things about www.itconsultants.ie, seems to be a no brainer as in you upload your skillset in detail and companies can find you.

Contracting always slightly risky but really suits some personalities who are quick on the uptake. Money's always better too!

AARRRRGH

KarlDrake wrote: »

O.P.
I'm hearing good things about www.itconsultants.ie, seems to be a no brainer as in you upload your skillset in detail and companies can find you.

Contracting always slightly risky but really suits some personalities who are quick on the uptake. Money's always better too!

We would never touch a website where someone we trusted hadnt filtered it first.
You are better off finding a good agent. Speaking from the other side we only deal with agents that we have used before and have proved that they are good at sorting the cream from the bull****ters.

Good agents are very good filters and save us a lot of work. Nothing worse that someone building themselves up and they turn out to be rubbish. It justs wastes everyones time.

Dantes

Hey, interesting thread, I'm just back from some extensive traveling and need to get back in the saddle. I was thinking about contracting in London (I'm a software engineer (~7 years experience(many languages but favourite is C#)), some of the rates look good, and I think I could manage my finances well enough myself.

I've never done contracting before, can someone explain why you they ask you to setup a limited company here?

Also, I've no base in London so would have to sort out accomodation etc, is it easy enough to get setup over there, if you've never contracted before? Are you also expected to pay for flights for interviews etc?

Many thanks!

AARRRRGH

Dantes wrote: »

Hey, interesting thread, I'm just back from some extensive traveling and need to get back in the saddle. I was thinking about contracting in London (I'm a software engineer (~7 years experience(many languages but favourite is C#)), some of the rates look good, and I think I could manage my finances well enough myself.

I've never done contracting before, can someone explain why you they ask you to setup a limited company here?

Also, I've no base in London so would have to sort out accomodation etc, is it easy enough to get setup over there, if you've never contracted before? Are you also expected to pay for flights for interviews etc?

Many thanks!

You can stay somewhere like the travellodge for about €50 a night to get started, until you get settled. Easily done on upwards of £500 a day. It costs hardly anything to fly over for an interview. Getting the time is the hardest part. A lot of companies will interview you on the phone anyway as they'll know the story.

You could also hook up with an agency in Ireland that places people in the UK. That way you could learn how it all works.

Better off basing yourself in Ireland. Why?
No IR35.
You get an Irish company. Flights, food and accommodation then become legitimate expenses. I cant remember but you are allowed around €150 a day expenses for working in London when based in Ireland. That money comes out of your company into your pocket BEFORE tax. Nice little earner. Check it out.

Dantes

Thanks AARRRRGH! That's really helpful. Any agency you could recommend over here? Might be useful for the first contract at least.

AARRRRGH

Dantes wrote: »

Thanks AARRRRGH! That's really helpful. Any agency you could recommend over here? Might be useful for the first contract at least.

Its so long since i went through an agency to the uk now, i cant remember who is still around and who isnt. I always found epeople and computer futures good like that. Maybe try a few who are based both here and in the uk.
I'll ask some of the lads I know who have gone and see if any of them used an irish agent.

Try ringing a few and tell them what you want to do and see if they can help.
Basically you want them to invoice the uk company. Then you invoice them.
Then technically you are working abroad but for an Irish company. This opens up some nice expenses options for you.

Dantes

Cheers, if it's no bother to do it without an agency, I'll just apply to a few online myself, I'm sur eyou'd have a month or so to get the company setup anyway once you got the job sorted. Right?

cronos

AARRRRGH wrote: »

All our testers in Dublin are being hired via the WPP scheme at the moment.
There are far more applicants than jobs for testing, so its an employers market there. (You can look up UK rates on the web if you are interested in going there - thats what i would do)
Hiring of VB.Net devs is about to go the same way. Management were already talking about putting vb.net jobs up on the fas site as those devs are easy to get.

A sad abuse of the system, but what can you do. The top brass see a way to save some money offered by the government and they take it. Its unfair on the ordinary working man, but it increases companies profits. You know which one the government feel is more important.

Can't say that's the case where I work anyway. Their are allot of people out there who do a three day course in software testing and suddenly think they are a tester.

Consultancies would also be very unlikley to hire through the WPP due to possible damage to the brand. But each company to their own I guess.

Zulu

AARRRRGH wrote: »

All our testers in Dublin are being hired via the WPP scheme at the moment.

...it's sad but probably true; quality is always the first thing cut when people attempt to tighten their belts.

I disagree though, there are plenty of test jobs out there, and any company would easily recognise a serious professional tester to a novice.

Daily rates are the same for anything else - it all depends on your experience & professional qualifications. A ISEB/ISTQB qualified practitioner with 5+ years experience will command daily rates comparative to any developer with similar experience.

Scrimping on quality is a total false economy, and I personally wouldn't work for any company that did. It's all going south if they are doing it, and it's only going to get worse. Time to jump ship!

DublinWriter

Dantes wrote: »

I've never done contracting before, can someone explain why you they ask you to setup a limited company here?

It's because they want to indemnity themselves if you decide to feck off without paying PAYE/PRSI.

Career progression is tricky with contracting.

For the money, niche skills are definitely the way to go, whether it be ITIL, SAP, PeopleSoft, Security, Sharepoint etc.

I'd be very wary of starting off contracting too young and just doing c#/vb.net with asp.net. You'll find your skillset getting old very fast.