private numbers

lor1975

If one were to get 600 private number calls the their phone in the past two months, day and night, and she knows where they are coming from now, theres a trace on her phone now, thanks to gardai, so it shouldnt be long more according to them to pull a number, assuming its a registered number and someone is found guilty, add an enormous amount of harassment in the form of verbal etc, what kind of a case do you think one might have in court? what kind of penalty might one get for making such an amount of calls? these would all be silent calls by the way

Farcear

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0022/sched1.html#sched1-part2

lor1975

Thanks a mill

McCrack

A lot of factors at play and it's very difficult to say what punishment a person might expect without being appraised of the detail. Seems they are purely nuisence and non-threatening so at the lower end of the scale. S10 of the Non Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 would/could be used to charge the individual behind it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

dats_right

Would the sensible thing not be to get a new phone?

Hooch

McCrack wrote: »

A lot of factors at play and it's very difficult to say what punishment a person might expect without being appraised of the detail. Seems they are purely nuisence and non-threatening so at the lower end of the scale. S10 of the Non Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 would/could be used to charge the individual behind it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

Def the one that would be used by the DPP. Nice sentences usually follow if the elements are there.

dats_right wrote: »

Would the sensible thing not be to get a new phone?

Why should she have to. I know I wouldnt want to change my number.

Our man in Havana

I was in a similar situation recently, the only solution was to change both landline and mobile numbers.

The culprit was using an unregistered pay as you go phone so no one could be prosecuted.

lor1975

i dont think changing my number is the answer to this. i was just wondering what the judge might do with the person if found guilty. i also dont want to let her get away with it so hopefully she is stupid enough to be ringing off her registered phone.

dats_right

nice guy always wrote: »

Why should she have to. I know I wouldnt want to change my number.

I agree, of course she shouldn't have to! But as a simple practical solution, doesn't it make sense?

You are a Garda, I am a solicitor and for God's sake we should both know that practical rather than legal solutions more often offer the best resolution to problems.

If this person has committed an offence and there is sufficient evidence to bring about a succesful prosecution then happy days. But as you will know better than I, this piece of legislation (Harrassment) is not exactly prosecuted with the same frequency as Theft, Public Order, Road Traffic and other more common Non-Fatal Offences Acts offences; so in reality it can be more difficult to bring about a succesful prosecution. The reality is that the evidence required to secure a conviction is that bit higher. One must also remember that the definition of this offence might criminalise virtually every drunken ex-boyfriends/girlfriends booty calls and judges will be reluctant to criminalise irrational emotions save in the most exceptional of circumstances.

Ultimately, my advice to the OP is; i) change your number, and; ii) consider bringing civil/criminal proceedings. But remember Op if considering the latter all your dirty linen will be aired in public and probably reported in the media. It is also quite likely that the person who is mad enough to ring you hundreds of times is also mad enough to make up lies about the nature of your relationship, don't be surprised to have allegations of domestic violence and other equally head-case stuff levelled against you in Court. It is natural that you are upset and annoyed at these actions, who wouldn't be? But consider your next actions carefully, especially consider the law of unintended consequences..

John C

I am not a solicitor.
You should ask a criminologist, profiler and psychologist, also encyclopedia: what are the motives for "silent calls".
- dominance and control. This caller is playing a vicious cat and mouse game.
- infatuation or obsession. Has it become a habit with this caller?
- grudge about an (imaginary) grievance.
- jealousy about a person, envy about his property.

Is the phone number in the book or online telephone book? If it was always ex directory then tentatively you could limit the number of suspects.

Changing a telephone number is easy. One can advise friends within two weeks.

Often it is someone close. Once it was the woman's husband checking that she was at home (his jealousy).

You should discreetly write a list all persons with your number as suspects. Log the time of the calls. If Michael X beside you when it happens, you could delete his name from the list. Your local police and solicitor have probably told you all this. They are professionals, you should listen to them. They know better than amateurs like me.

I've given no legal information, thus off topic. I am neither a solicitor nor a psychologist.

McCrack

dats_right wrote: »

Would the sensible thing not be to get a new phone?

Yes and no. In reality these type of situations snowball and if the OP was to change their No I'd bet my last euro that the individual behind it would get the new No and continue the harassment. I've seen these situations before in family law and once confronted by the Gardai and warned the harasser stops. No prosecution follows but the matter is recorded.

lor1975

it has been five weeks now since i gave a number of who i know is making the calls to me. gardai said this will speed up process, roughly two weeks. still no word from them. can someone explain to me please, how on earth can it take so long for gardai to get info as to whether or not a particular number was phoning me?? surely if they wanted to check out someones mobile number they would have the power to do so in ten minutes?

Paulw

lor1975 wrote: »

it has been five weeks now since i gave a number of who i know is making the calls to me. gardai said this will speed up process, roughly two weeks. still no word from them. can someone explain to me please, how on earth can it take so long for gardai to get info as to whether or not a particular number was phoning me?? surely if they wanted to check out someones mobile number they would have the power to do so in ten minutes?

The Gardai can't simply ring a phone operator (Vodafone, Meteor, Eircom, BT, O2, etc) and ask for someone's number. They would require a court order to get that information.

Tom Young

Paulw wrote: »

The Gardai can't simply ring a phone operator (Vodafone, Meteor, Eircom, BT, O2, etc) and ask for someone's number. They would require a court order to get that information.

Actually they don't. They require sign-off from a Chief Super for records on foot of a valid complaint. They can also make DP requests of the telco's.

cushtac

lor1975 wrote: »

can someone explain to me please, how on earth can it take so long for gardai to get info as to whether or not a particular number was phoning me?? surely if they wanted to check out someones mobile number they would have the power to do so in ten minutes?

The Gardaí are reliant on the phone companies to provide the information, they do not have their own access to subscriber details or phone traffic records. While it is relatively straight forward to get subscriber details (if they exist) it takes considerably longer to get the details of calls made. On top of that, if the phone company drags it's heels at any stage the process gets longer.

lor1975

i'm not sure that i made myself clear but i have given the number of the person calling me to gardai as i now know it. therefore, all i need is proof which i can only get from gardai. they have the number, theres a serious amount of harassment at this stge and still five months later-nothing. i dont believe it takes them this long to check out a number and what calls were made from it. i can ring my operator and they will tell me what calls i made off my phone on any given day. u would imagine the gardai would have the power to do that

Hooch

lor1975 wrote: »

i'm not sure that i made myself clear but i have given the number of the person calling me to gardai as i now know it. therefore, all i need is proof which i can only get from gardai. they have the number, theres a serious amount of harassment at this stge and still five months later-nothing. i dont believe it takes them this long to check out a number and what calls were made from it. i can ring my operator and they will tell me what calls i made off my phone on any given day. u would imagine the gardai would have the power to do that

We simply dont have the power. And mobile phone providers are terrible to deal with. A harassment case is a hard one to prove and so it takes a long time to investigate. 2 years was the length of my last harassment case.

Contact the member concerned with your investigation and ask them the position with it.

Tom Young

I beg to differ with that. If the member in question who took the report get the information though to the Phx Park the records are sought under Section 64 of the 2005 CJ (Terrorist Offences) Act.

The problem is that many members don't prosecute, have the first clue or are bothered to work through to get the cases to the FIB in the Phx Park. The requirements on the phone companies are adhered to and once a request is sent from AGS the numbers are sent forward fast.

Any member directly contacting a telco does so in breach of the law and does so potentially in breach of process.

Tom

lor1975

i appreciate the advice. i dont see how 700 calls could be a hard case to prove for harassment though, how many calls does it take??

Whitewater-AGS

Tom Young wrote: »

I beg to differ with that. If the member in question who took the report get the information though to the Phx Park the records are sought under Section 64 of the 2005 CJ (Terrorist Offences) Act.

The problem is that many members don't prosecute, have the first clue or are bothered to work through to get the cases to the FIB in the Phx Park. The requirements on the phone companies are adhered to and once a request is sent from AGS the numbers are sent forward fast.

Any member directly contacting a telco does so in breach of the law and does so potentially in breach of process.

Tom

Nga knows that we can get access to the data required but its takes forever for phone companies to return such data to us, I was waiting at least three months the last time I sent such a request through my chief. Only one company gets back fairly quick and this tends to be bacuse they have a garda contract.

Most members know how to get the data and certainly every sgt knows it and to say many members dont have a clue or aint bother is a bit of a stretch and at the end of the day its not the investigating members decision if the case proceeds or not.

Tom Young

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

...... and at the end of the day its not the investigating members decision if the case proceeds or not.

Yes perhaps I was a little strong. I think you've summarised why the public perception might well be as I state.

The force is not well equipped or resourced for latest technology crime, harassment, CP, and indeed recording. I've slated pulse before so won't do it again here.

No offence, I understand that the vast majority of the force are diligent and professional but the limitations do arise in budget and resource. Shame really.

lor1975

i would have imagined it was my decision whether to proceed with the case or not. am i right?

MagicSean

lor1975 wrote: »

i would have imagined it was my decision whether to proceed with the case or not. am i right?

No. You can withdraw your complaint but you can't force the dpp to prosecute. The last time I requested information I think it took six months. This is due to the large volume of requests the phone companies are processing. Once a phone number is identified by an operator a request has to be made to the operator of that number for the registered details. This is all done by the phone companies and not by the gardai. But the phone companies are also bound to abide by the data protection act and a lot of red tape is involved in releasing information about customers.

lor1975

just a little update, still nothing back from phoenix park, anytime i ring to get an update from my local gardai, they couldnt even be bothered to ring me back on it. i now have well over 1000 calls from same private number, i assume, talk about a joke of a system

kaiser sauze

How long do mobile phone operators keep records of incoming calls?

MagicSean

lor1975 wrote: »

just a little update, still nothing back from phoenix park, anytime i ring to get an update from my local gardai, they couldnt even be bothered to ring me back on it. i now have well over 1000 calls from same private number, i assume, talk about a joke of a system

You say the same private number. How do you know? They can't simply identify one call and then assume they are all from the same one. The more calls there are the longer it will take.

lor1975

lets assume most are from the same number, over a 1000 calls to my number, surely if they located a number corresponding to the calls in question then by checking that number they could see the amount of calls made from it. i know from the pattern of calls and times that they are coming from the same person.

as regards how long operators keep records, i dont know, but im pretty sure they can check the past calls made for a while back

MagicSean

lor1975 wrote: »

lets assume most are from the same number, over a 1000 calls to my number, surely if they located a number corresponding to the calls in question then by checking that number they could see the amount of calls made from it. i know from the pattern of calls and times that they are coming from the same person.

as regards how long operators keep records, i dont know, but im pretty sure they can check the past calls made for a while back

You can't assume that though. And you cannot inspect another persons calls without their permission or a courts permission.

Victor

Haddockman wrote: »

I was in a similar situation recently, the only solution was to change both landline and mobile numbers.

The culprit was using an unregistered pay as you go phone so no one could be prosecuted.

These people can be traced by checking who else they phone.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

How long do mobile phone operators keep records of incoming calls?

I think two years. However, it is likely to be stored as calls made, not calls received (unless its a 1800, 1850, 1890 or similar number where the person receiving the call pays part of the cost).

Rhamiel

lor1975 wrote: »

just a little update, still nothing back from phoenix park, anytime i ring to get an update from my local gardai, they couldnt even be bothered to ring me back on it. i now have well over 1000 calls from same private number, i assume, talk about a joke of a system

You definitely have a case anyway, its clear cut harassment as far as the law is defined. Hopefully the case will proceed quickly for you, I can understand your frustrations with the system. I reported death threats made to me over the phone to the gardai before which were from a clearly defined person who had also assaulted me but it seemed too much hassle for the gardai to acquire the evidence for this so they seemed to just sweep it away and only proceed with the more straight forward assault charges

amen

Use the Data protection act and ask them for all numbers that rung your number in the last 30 days.

lor1975

just a little update for anyone thats interested. the number that was calling me was traced, only lately since another guard took over the case. its an unregistered number and apparently cant be traced to anyone, seems one cant find out where the credit for the phone came from either and now that the calls have stopped, all 1200 of them, well there isnt a whole pile the guards can do anymore according to them. amazing isnt it? wait until the calls stop and then go try and figure it out. does anyone think it is worth seeking the advice from a solicitor or am i just wasting money? i really hate letting this person away with what they have done

angeline

There is nothing you can do if the calls came from an unregistered number. Wasting your time and money going to a solicitor. You have no proof against this person.

Victor

Ask the garda is that phone used to call any other numbers. It could determine someone quite quickly.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

Ask the garda is that phone used to call any other numbers. It could determine someone quite quickly.

They won't have that info. It would be a breach of privacy for the phone company to supply it as it isn't related to the crime. It would only be provided in extreme cases. All the Gardaí get is the number, the times it called the victim and subscriber details if available. The backlog at the moment is quite large too.

I see no reason for any number to be blocked. I can't see what legitimate purpose it serves.

MapForJ

amen wrote: »

Use the Data protection act and ask them for all numbers that rung your number in the last 30 days.

can you do that?

tayto lover

Had one of these instances myself a few years ago. It took nearly 8 weeks for the phone company to forward the records to the Garda. It seems to take ages.

lor1975

i had plenty of proof, this person made calls to other people pretending to be me and i heard her kids in the background on numerous occasions. if you ask me she was tipped off and dumped the phone when she got caught. typical bull****, i dont believe for a minute it took over a year for that number to be traced, id have been better off hiring a detective to sort it from the start than bothering my arse goin down the other road

MagicSean

lor1975 wrote: »

i had plenty of proof, this person made calls to other people pretending to be me and i heard her kids in the background on numerous occasions. if you ask me she was tipped off and dumped the phone when she got caught. typical bull****, i dont believe for a minute it took over a year for that number to be traced, id have been better off hiring a detective to sort it from the start than bothering my arse goin down the other road

Believe what you want. I requested a trace two years ago and have gotten nothing back since. It doesn't matter wether she has the phone or not. If she hasn't registered it in her name there's no way of tracing it to her.

Our man in Havana

There should be no way of obtaining a number without valid ID on record like it is in most countries.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

There should be no way of obtaining a number without valid ID on record like it is in most countries.

I agree. It's something I think needs to be introduced immediately. You could send a 10 year old in to buy a pay as you go phone and nobody could ever trace it to you.

Mrs Shuttleworth

lor1975 wrote: »

i had plenty of proof, this person made calls to other people pretending to be me and i heard her kids in the background on numerous occasions. if you ask me she was tipped off and dumped the phone when she got caught. typical bull****, i dont believe for a minute it took over a year for that number to be traced, id have been better off hiring a detective to sort it from the start than bothering my arse goin down the other road

From my own experience of this thing: the Gards tend to issue informal cautions on these matters before going further. Your caller was probably approached by them once they identified her, and told to knock it off. Once she did it won't be pursued.

I was getting these calls for ages. One day I got a Darth Vader "breathing mask" free with Empire Magazine. When the calls came, the mask was turned on. Never had a problem since!!

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Believe what you want. I requested a trace two years ago and have gotten nothing back since. It doesn't matter wether she has the phone or not. If she hasn't registered it in her name there's no way of tracing it to her.

if the phone was used to call other numbers it can be traced. a print out of all calls and times can be got

There is nothing you can do if the calls came from an unregistered number.

not necessarily true

MagicSean

MapForJ wrote: »

if the phone was used to call other numbers it can be traced. a print out of all calls and times can be got

Not really. It would be very difficult to get the phone company to release the call log of an account without the account holders consent, especially if the purpose was only to identify them.

MapForJ wrote: »

not necessarily

There would be no record of their identity so pretty impossible. Of course you could get lucky and find the number attached to some ad on DoneDeal or something and trace them that way.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Not really. It would be very difficult to get the phone company to release the call log of an account without the account holders consent, especially if the purpose was only to identify them.



There would be no record of their identity so pretty impossible. Of course you could get lucky and find the number attached to some ad on DoneDeal or something and trace them that way.

to quote your self "believe what you want". i know all phones can be traced and do not intend to argue it further.As well as a 08x number they also have an IMEI number which is the same even if the chip is changed

MagicSean

MapForJ wrote: »

to quote your self "believe what you want". i know all phones can be traced and do not intend to argue it further.As well as a 08x number they also have an IMEI number which is the same even if the chip is changed

You can buy a phone and sim for €30. Why would anyone keep their stalker phone?

Discodog

Our man in Havana wrote: »

There should be no way of obtaining a number without valid ID on record like it is in most countries.

Totally pointless as it is simple to buy a second hand phone.

Any phone can be traced & any phone can be tracked. If this had been terrorist related in would of been done within hours.