What have FG and Labour ever done for this country ?

scr123

Though only an infrequent user of this message board I cannot help but notice it is dominated by FG and Labour supporters who have made a career out of bashing FF. Lets be honest, any fool can do what these people engage in. How they do not get bored repeating the same drivel is beyond me.
Perhaps these people can attempt to break the monotony by explaining what FG and Labour have ever done for this country. Labour are nearly 100 years old and FG nearly 80 years old and when you look back at their history simply nothing stands out that one can say was of benefit to the country, especially in the area of economics. Every time they came to power the people could not wait to get rid of them !!. Even now they seem certain to win the next election but you can bet your last cent they will be exposed as the frauds they are and the people might turn to the old reliable, FF. They talk about FF corruption but for goodness sake hundreds of millions, maybe even billions for all I know, has been paid to these shysters for sitting in Dail Eireann year after year waffling on about nothing. How they manage to do this without a trace of conscience is a sore point with me.
When FG hit its 75th anniversary it passed without any trace of celebration because of course they had nothing to celebrate and no doubt they as usual did not want to draw attention to their origins. Labour in 2012 will make absolutely certain their 100th passes without mention !!

So, those of you boys and girls who plaster this message board with open hatred of FF lets hear you brag about what you see as the great achievements of FG and Labour.

ei.sdraob

they usually come in power to cleanup the mess left by FF

people have short memories unfortunately

KerranJast

FG
80s - tried to clean up the mess left by the Jack Lynch govt, Anglo-Irish agreement, Tallaght strategy
90s - CAB, built on Tallaght strategy and work of McSharry to kick start Celtic Tiger. Handed over very healthy economy in 97.

It's not really FG/Labours fault that FF have bought every election since the year dot.

maynooth_rules

scr123 wrote: »

They talk about FF corruption but for goodness sake hundreds of millions, maybe even billions for all I know, has been paid to these shysters for sitting in Dail Eireann year after year waffling on about nothing. How they manage to do this without a trace of conscience is a sore point with me.

You do understand the difference between corruption, and earning your wages?? Corruption is not ingrained into Labour and Fine Gael. The you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours mentality is less prevailent in Labour and Fine Gael. Finally, the Galway tent. An example of every little thing that is wrong with the FF party. I could never see FG or labour resorting to this horse****e cosy, looking after each other mentaility with developers

RATM

scr123 wrote: »

Labour are nearly 100 years old and FG nearly 80 years old and when you look back at their history simply nothing stands out that one can say was of benefit to the country, especially in the area of economics.

Err, you should really look back on your history. It was Ruari Quinn of Labour, as Minister for Finance who introduced our low rates of corporation tax which then sparked huge FDI by multinationals and created hundreds of thousands of jobs.

If there was one single decision in government that did more to create sustainable jobs in this country then this was it. The construction industry which FF propped up is now blitzed but the multi-nationals largely remain and if we are to get out of this mess they are fundmentally more important than ever. One day history will record that decision by Ruari Quinn as one of the most important in the growth of our economy and yet still FF'ers will cry out that Labour in power would wreck the economy.

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

Though only an infrequent user of this message board I cannot help but notice it is dominated by FG and Labour supporters who have made a career out of bashing FF. Lets be honest, any fool can do what these people engage in. How they do not get bored repeating the same drivel is beyond me.

From the very first sentence of that post you were wrong, on so many levels that I just have to reply (and I just know I'll regret not just ignoring it, but some things have to be said)

1) I am not an "FG or Labour supporter"
2) I am also not "any fool".....which is why I will never vote for your party

As for "repeating the same drivel", well, go ask your beloved hierarchy who have repeated the same - false - drivel about "Lehman Bros" and "Global Recession" and "we have turned a corner" for the last 3 years.

People who point out where FF have failed miserably and engaged in corruption do not have to be supporters of alternatives with some nasty, hidden agenda; they may just happen to be people sickened by corruption and incompetence.

However having seen your "infrequent" posts claiming to be a "staunch" supporter of FF, no matter what, and talking with zero objectivity as if FF were the greatest thing since sliced bread, I doubt that will get through to you.

Wide Road

Liam and others. Read the title of the thread.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Coillte_Bhoy

scr123 wrote: »

Though only an infrequent user of this message board I cannot help but notice it is dominated by FG and Labour supporters who have made a career out of bashing FF. Lets be honest, any fool can do what these people engage in. How they do not get bored repeating the same drivel is beyond me.
Perhaps these people can attempt to break the monotony by explaining what FG and Labour have ever done for this country. Labour are nearly 100 years old and FG nearly 80 years old and when you look back at their history simply nothing stands out that one can say was of benefit to the country, especially in the area of economics. Every time they came to power the people could not wait to get rid of them !!. Even now they seem certain to win the next election but you can bet your last cent they will be exposed as the frauds they are and the people might turn to the old reliable, FF. They talk about FF corruption but for goodness sake hundreds of millions, maybe even billions for all I know, has been paid to these shysters for sitting in Dail Eireann year after year waffling on about nothing. How they manage to do this without a trace of conscience is a sore point with me.
When FG hit its 75th anniversary it passed without any trace of celebration because of course they had nothing to celebrate and no doubt they as usual did not want to draw attention to their origins. Labour in 2012 will make absolutely certain their 100th passes without mention !!

So, those of you boys and girls who plaster this message board with open hatred of FF lets hear you brag about what you see as the great achievements of FG and Labour.

Id hazard a gess that the reson the majority of posters here are anti FF is somewhat similar to the reason the majority of the electroate are anti ff. Also most FF supporters i know wouldnt exactly be au fait with internet if you know what i mean. As for labour not celebrating it's centenary why wouldnt it???

trapsagenius

KerranJast wrote: »

80s - tried to clean up the mess left by the Jack Lynch govt

Haughey also played a great deal in ensuring this mess was so bad, but in fairness, it was to be said that that coalition failed dismally in this regard.

KerranJast wrote: »

Anglo-Irish agreement

This was a failure.The idea that it "created" the peace process is a complete myth.I have outlined my views on this agreement in several threads, so I won't bore ye again.

KerranJast wrote: »

Tallaght strategy

Completely agree on this point.While a lot of members on this forum don't like Dukes any more because of his involvement with Anglo, I still maintain that he was the best Taoiseach we never had.

KerranJast wrote: »

90s - CAB

I was of the opinion that this was John O'Donoghues brain child?Of course, we can't really give him credit for anything any more can we?

KerranJast wrote: »

built on Tallaght strategy

Can you elaborate on this point please?

KerranJast wrote: »

work of McSharry to kick start Celtic Tiger.

In fairness it wasn't only Mcsharry who helped create the Celtic Tiger, other guys deserve a lot of credit-especially Albert Reynolds who is often ignored.The term "celtic tiger" was first mentioned in 1994, during the FF-Labour coalition.

KerranJast wrote: »

FG
Handed over very healthy economy in 97.

Agree on this point.

wonderfulname

Why should we be judging parties on previous members actions?

The next election has nothing to do with Lynch surely.

When I look at the parties today I see a FF that is willing to take what measures necessary with regards monetary aspects, but fail with regards to social policy.

I see a FG that are trying desperately hard not to appear too much like their opposition, but are really offering more of the same.

I see a Green party who are happy to tackle insignificant issues from their own perspective, but lack the ability to stand their own ground on important issues.

I see a SF unfit for a modern Ireland.

And I see a Labour party I once despised with what now seem to be intelligent arguments, far sighted objectives and concrete honest objectives regarding true change in government.

I am not going to vote for the party that became the face of the good years, or the party that criticized the bad years, I'm going to vote for the party that looks the best option for now not 20 years ago.

scr123

A thread challenging FG and Labour is turned into more attacks on FF with feeble efforts to address the topic.

Clean up mess made by FF - the problems were multiplied !!

Tallaght Strategy - the reaction of Alan Dukes because he knew the government he had been a member of had failed miserably to tackle the problems of the economy. In fact 3 ex leaders of FG have come out in last two years and admitted their hands were tied by Labour. Will always admire Dukes for his action but the poor guy was shafted for doing something worthwhile. BTW, never understood how an intelligent person like him was a member of FG

CAB - lying on government shelves for years gathering dust until the brutal murder of Veronica Guerin

Anglo Irish Agreement - what can one say other than OUT ! OUT ! OUT !

Kick started and handed over a healthy economy - they took over an economy with a £300m Budget surplus and handed back an economy with a £300m Budget deficit. Whatever happened that £600m, huge money in those days.

Lack of response to the challenge to FG and Labour reflects how shallow and empty they are and once again proves that other than attacking FF their sheet is blank. God help us if they actually do get in to government together !!

johnnyskeleton

Labour opposed the bank guaranatee and subsequent bailouts. The fact that they weren't in a position to prevent them is not Labour's fault, but the electorate's for voting in FF time after time after time.

maynooth_rules

scr123, is there anything that you cant back up Fianna Fail on. You even try and defend the indefensible when it comes to FF. Take off the party blinkered glasses

aDeener

KerranJast wrote: »

FG
80s - tried to clean up the mess left by the Jack Lynch govt, Anglo-Irish agreement, Tallaght strategy
90s - CAB, built on Tallaght strategy and work of McSharry to kick start Celtic Tiger. Handed over very healthy economy in 97.

It's not really FG/Labours fault that FF have bought every election since the year dot.

if they bought every election surely they would have won every election :rolleyes: ffs people here cant be rational at all when it comes to discussing political parties.

rabble rabble fianna fail galway tent rabble developers rabble brown envelopes rabble rabble..

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Liam and others. Read the title of the thread.

The title of the thread is an indication, but the original question in the first post was based on a massive number of false, biased and downright deluded opinions.

I think it's perfectly OK to challenge those before answering the question, as they give an indication that no matter what is said in answer to the question, it won't be accepted.

scr123

maynooth_rules wrote: »

scr123, is there anything that you cant back up Fianna Fail on. You even try and defend the indefensible when it comes to FF. Take off the party blinkered glasses

I rarely, if ever, defend FF. What I try to do is elicit from the Opposition what exactly it is that they have and FF do not have. So far I have failed miserably in this little hobby simply because the Opposition refuse to talk about themselves and want to do nothing else but attack FF. This thread is a classic example and in reality is a missed opportunity for the Opposition to attempt to sell themselves as a serious alternative to FF.

One good thing the FG/Lab govt did in the 1980's was to defeat the crazy inflation rate that had been around the neck of the country since the first oil crsis in the 70's. Either a lack of knowledge of economics or cowardice because they would have to explain how they defeated inflation are the only explanations why these parties refuse to brag about their success

johnnyskeleton

scr123 wrote: »

One good thing the FG/Lab govt did in the 1980's was to defeat the crazy inflation rate that had been around the neck of the country since the first oil crsis in the 70's. Either a lack of knowledge of economics or cowardice because they would have to explain how they defeated inflation are the only explanations why these parties refuse to brag about their success

Well you said at the start that FG/Labour haven't done a single thing for the benefit of the country, and now you have answered your question - yes, they have done at least one good thing for the country.

/thread IMO.

meditraitor

scr123 wrote: »

Labour are nearly 100 years old and FG nearly 80 years old and when you look back at their history simply nothing stands out that one can say was of benefit to the country, especially in the area of economics. .

How about Ruari Quinns (During the Rainbow Government of 1994-7)
12.5% corperation tax?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Name me a single FF economic change that has as much influence on growth in your lifetime?

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

I rarely, if ever, defend FF.

Most of your posts suggest otherwise, with every single justified criticism of FF dismissed as "bashing" or assuming that the poster in question has an agenda due to being a supporter of another party.

There's even one example in your opening post:

scr123 wrote: »

They talk about FF corruption but for goodness sake hundreds of millions, maybe even billions for all I know, has been paid to these shysters for sitting in Dail Eireann year after year waffling on about nothing. How they manage to do this without a trace of conscience is a sore point with me.

Being ****e at a job that you're getting paid for is not comparable to corruption, and even suggesting that it is is just an attempt at deflecting from the corruption.

And even leaving aside the corruption, the "****e at their job" description also includes Ahern & Cowen & - to an extent - Lenihan. So why don't those 3 grate on you as much as those from FG & Labour who are ****e at theirs ?

Plus, highlighting the corruption of Ahern & Callely & Co is part of what I'd expect from them doing their jobs.

scr123 wrote: »

So, those of you boys and girls who plaster this message board with open hatred of FF lets hear you brag about what you see as the great achievements of FG and Labour.

As I said, objecting to and highlighting corruption would be one.
Sowing the seeds for the economic growth that we had in the late 90s would be another.

But there's no point in me "bragging" about it, because (a) it's just their job and (b) I'm not a supporter or member of either, so all I want is for them to do the job they get paid for, and they'll get no bragging or massive praise for doing it, because that's what they're paid for.....I'm not one for clapping a pilot for actually getting me to the destination!

I am, however, one for justifiably criticising the pilot who crashes the feckin' plane!

wilson10

scr123 wrote: »

A thread challenging FG and Labour is turned into more attacks on FF with feeble efforts to address the topic.

Clean up mess made by FF - the problems were multiplied !!

Tallaght Strategy - the reaction of Alan Dukes because he knew the government he had been a member of had failed miserably to tackle the problems of the economy. In fact 3 ex leaders of FG have come out in last two years and admitted their hands were tied by Labour. Will always admire Dukes for his action but the poor guy was shafted for doing something worthwhile. BTW, never understood how an intelligent person like him was a member of FG

CAB - lying on government shelves for years gathering dust until the brutal murder of Veronica Guerin

Anglo Irish Agreement - what can one say other than OUT ! OUT ! OUT !

Kick started and handed over a healthy economy - they took over an economy with a £300m Budget surplus and handed back an economy with a £300m Budget deficit. Whatever happened that £600m, huge money in those days.

Lack of response to the challenge to FG and Labour reflects how shallow and empty they are and once again proves that other than attacking FF their sheet is blank. God help us if they actually do get in to government together !!

God help us! Give us an example of how we could be worse off than we are.

Laminations

wilson10 wrote: »

God help us! Give us an example of how we could be worse off than we are.

If people with views like scr123 were in the majority, we'd be worse off for sure

aDeener

wilson10 wrote: »

God help us! Give us an example of how we could be worse off than we are.

if anglo was let fall and a run on the banks occurred such as what happened in iceland we would be worse off. just a hypothetical example of how we could be worse off

wonderfulname

I still don't understand why people judge parties on what was done in a different time by different people...

Wide Road

wonderfulname wrote: »

I still don't understand why people judge parties on what was done in a different time by different people...

It's more than that. This thread is a perfect example. It's about FG and Labour, yet posters are on about FF. Is it a complex or jealousy that they (god knows how) are in govt for as long as they are. Talk about FG and Labour, don't be ashamed of them.

wonderfulname

Wide Road wrote: »

It's more than that. This thread is a perfect example. It's about FG and Labour, yet posters are on about FF. Is it a complex or jealousy that they (god knows how) are in govt for as long as they are. Talk about FG and Labour, don't be ashamed of them.

I see a good few comments on FG and Labour, naturally given the thread title and the venomous nature of the original post many have chosen to speak of other parties in contrast with FF. If it were titled "top moments in parties histories" and the first post kicked it off in a friendly way, for example asking people what they thought and giving a universally recognised example then I'm sure things would be different.

sceptre

I'm not going to make people limit their contributions to "what FG or Labour" have done for the country, especially given the opening post, which doesn't invite much reasoned discussion. However, I always reckon such questions are better answered with something other than "based on past and especially recent history they're better than the other shower (or your shower) of incompetent corrupt numpties who can't be trusted to bring back a pail of water from the free well". Regardless of whether or not that's true and even if there are examples provided of being an incompetent corrupt numpty who can't find the well. It's always nice to have a chance for a thread with lots of sunshine, rainbows and lollipops, we get so few of those... Up to yourselves really.

However, I've deleted some silly handbagging after this post from a duo of forum members that could know better if they put the handbags away. I've taken the liberty of just deleting the silliness instead. It was nowhere near anything to do with the thread.

/mod

Pedro K

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The aqueduct? :-)

Fr0g

aDeener wrote: »

if anglo was let fall and a run on the banks occurred such as what happened in iceland we would be worse off. just a hypothetical example of how we could be worse off

The guarantee would have stopped a run on AIB and BOI without saving Anglo. Including Anglo in the guarantee was more about who had money in anglo rather than any other consideration.

Iceland has a lower rate of unemployment than Ireland. Just an example of how we are not better off than Iceland.

If a partial collapse of the banks had been allowed we would have hit the bottom sooner and might actually be turning a corner now instead of the imaginary corner that we have now been turning for about a year.

The guarantee led to Anglo nationalisation which led to NAMA. Most of the toxic loans transferred to NAMA have come from Anglo.

The "hard" decisions made by FF were:

Save Anglo not the taxpayer
Prop up the bubble property market with NAMA instead of letting it find it's own level.
Borrow 20 billion a year to give the illusion that we are "over the worst" instead of reduce spending by getting rid of quangos and various other FF party gravy trains. When in fact the worst is yet to come.

The first of these borrowings will start to come due in 2012.

mrboswell

They provided and continue to provide an alternative, whether or not one deems the alternative to be better or worse.

The simple fact is that having complacency from a government in power serves no one.

Ideally competition should bring about change and knowing that you are not indispensable should make you perform better in the future.

All opposing parties including FG and Labour have provided a service to this country. If the Irish people choose to ignore any alternative government during elections then we have to live with it.....unfortunately.

Liam Byrne

mrboswell wrote: »

All opposing parties including FG and Labour have provided a service to this country. If the enough Irish people choose to ignore any alternative government during elections then we have to live with it.....unfortunately.

Small correction, but otherwise on-the-ball, especially the last word.

dlofnep

Labour gave us accessibility to college.

91011

Having originally voted FG (fitgerald & Dukes era) then FF & PD's in more recent years. I've been particularly pleased to see that Michael Noonan has simlar policies to Brian Lenihan.

Whilst there are many parts of the recession that could have been avoided, the actions currently been taken are necessary even if not palayable.

With Noonan having, imo, a far better finance pedigree than Bruton and talking about what exactly he would be doing (rather than the "everything FF are doing is crap" attitude of bruton) I would tend to swing toward FG if there was an election soon.

The overally "front bench" of FG seems to be made up of people with intelligence within particular fields rather than geo political lines which I suspect some current FF ministers are in the jobs for.

Einhard

Fr0g wrote: »

The guarantee would have stopped a run on AIB and BOI without saving Anglo. Including Anglo in the guarantee was more about who had money in anglo rather than any other consideration.

.

I'm no fan of FF, but I find these kind of conspiracy theories preposterous. Are you really suggesting that Brian Lenihan and others, both in government and in the Dept of Finance, decided to bail out Anglo at a cost of €30 odd billion for the sole purpose of safegaurding vested interests, who lost out anyway when the bank was nationalised? When you think about that rationally, I don't think that anyone can really believe that's what happened.

Einhard

dlofnep wrote: »

Labour gave us accessibility to college.

Some would argue that all free fees really achieved was to subside 3rd level for those families who would have been able to afford it anyway.

dlofnep

Einhard wrote: »

Some would argue that all free fees really achieved was to subside 3rd level for those families who would have been able to afford it anyway.

Some might.

I would argue that it has allowed access to thousands of working class families around Ireland to go on and better themselves. I say this as a person from a working class background who's recently just finished college and is about to start a masters degree. I was the first person in my extended family to go to college, and without the abolition of fees - I wouldn't have been able to do so.

scr123

dlofnep wrote: »

Some might.

I would argue that it has allowed access to thousands of working class families around Ireland to go on and better themselves. I say this as a person from a working class background who's recently just finished college and is about to start a masters degree. I was the first person in my extended family to go to college, and without the abolition of fees - I wouldn't have been able to do so.

I left primary in 1959 because the Ma and Da needed £2.10.0 to send me to secondary, thats 2 pounds 10 shillings and huge money at the time, a weeks wages for the Da and on top of that books would have to be paid. Not complaining as I went to UK and got ediucated free in later years. Not saying either that people are lucky now but more than grateful that my kids went to college and paid registration fees that were earned by part time work. It may be tough for some people now but overall its a sheer pleasure to witness so many of our young people going to third level education and aspiring to better things. Sour note for me is that during the good years so many kids got a smell of money and did not go to college, they are paying the price now

Nearly forgetting, it was FF who introduced free education, the other showers could not get past the winning post at elections to even contemplate such wonderful progress

mrboswell

scr123 wrote: »

I left primary in 1959 because the Ma and Da needed £2.10.0 to send me to secondary, thats 2 pounds 10 shillings and huge money at the time, a weeks wages for the Da and on top of that books would have to be paid. Not complaining as I went to UK and got ediucated free in later years. Not saying either that people are lucky now but more than grateful that my kids went to college and paid registration fees that were earned by part time work. It may be tough for some people now but overall its a sheer pleasure to witness so many of our young people going to third level education and aspiring to better things. Sour note for me is that during the good years so many kids got a smell of money and did not go to college, they are paying the price now

Nearly forgetting, it was FF who introduced free education, the other showers could not get past the winning post at elections to even contemplate such wonderful progress

Spot on with first part.

The economy took off in the 60's and thats what brought the change in the education system.
Free eduction is too much of a general term. Free second level, not third level, was introduced the late 60's I think. If you had of only hung in there you might have benefited.

No doubt FF claimed the growth in the economy in the 60's was due to them, just like they did with the most recent growth in the economy. But then washed their hands of the mess they got us into. Time to stop slapping yourselves on the back and fix it.

Anyway it doesn't matter who introduced fees - fact is they are free and it has opened up education to people who previously couldn't have availed of it.

Now back on topic.
As I said previously, and its ultimately all that matters, FG and Labour provide and continue to provide an alternative when voting comes around.

Fr0g

Einhard wrote: »

I'm no fan of FF, but I find these kind of conspiracy theories preposterous. Are you really suggesting that Brian Lenihan and others, both in government and in the Dept of Finance, decided to bail out Anglo at a cost of €30 odd billion for the sole purpose of safegaurding vested interests, who lost out anyway when the bank was nationalised? When you think about that rationally, I don't think that anyone can really believe that's what happened.

Three solicitors from Dermot G. O Donavan are directors of Fordmount Group who owe Anglo upwards 100 million euros.
In other words major contributors to mess we now find ourselves in.

they are claiming here that they believed the personal guarantees would never be enforced. Please read on bearing in mind that these people are solicitors:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0630/limerick.html

So you would expect that NAMA would hound these shysters until they got every penny? No?

You would never believe that this same firm of solicitors would actually be given a job working FOR NAMA would you?

Surely that wouldn't happen?

Fordmount developers are NAMA solicitors

This is just one example of safeguarding vested interests, but you can call it a conspiracy theory if you want to.

Fr0g

What? NAMA are paying developers? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around?

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/politics/nama-to-pay-salaries-expenses-to-developers-123606.html


This poor little dear has been liberated:

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/i-owe-8364200m-and-feel-like-i-have-been-liberated-2190375.html

I feel liberated to walk away from it to be honest.

I'll finish with this since I have brought the thread off topic:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-the-truth-its-a-bailout-for-developers-2200525.html

Einhard

dlofnep wrote: »

Some might.

I would argue that it has allowed access to thousands of working class families around Ireland to go on and better themselves. I say this as a person from a working class background who's recently just finished college and is about to start a masters degree. I was the first person in my extended family to go to college, and without the abolition of fees - I wouldn't have been able to do so.

I was pretty much in the same boat myself. I'm not against free fees per se, but rather have a problem with their blanket introduction. Government support, in the form of free fees, the dole, medical cards etc, should be afforded to those who really need it, and there are many who avail of free third level education who have parents wealthy enough to fund it themselves. I believe that the money that currently goes to subsidise the wealthy would be better off going to improve the grants of those who, despite te introduction of free fees, still sturggle to put themselves through college.

Einhard

Fr0g wrote: »

What? NAMA are paying developers? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around?

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/politics/nama-to-pay-salaries-expenses-to-developers-123606.html


This poor little dear has been liberated:

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/i-owe-8364200m-and-feel-like-i-have-been-liberated-2190375.html



I'll finish with this since I have brought the thread off topic:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-the-truth-its-a-bailout-for-developers-2200525.html

This really has nothing to do with what I posted. It's not enough, when claiming that Brian lenihan orchestrated a €30 billion fraud on the tax payer in order to protect his cronies, to point out that three solicitors who owe NAMA money ae contracted by that institution.

Also, I'm not sure I find anything wrong with paying developers a reasonable sum to finish those projects which NAMA believes can be completed and sold at a profit to the state. It seems unbelievable at first glance, but what exactly is the alternative? To let such projects crumble when there's a reasonable chance of getting a return on them?

Seriously, I know FF have proen thwmselves to be incompetent in government, but, much as one might dislike them, one cannot use that to assert massive, overt corruption of an unprecedented scale, or to dismiss every new initiative and expect to get away with it unchallenged.

Fr0g

Einhard wrote: »

Seriously, I know FF have proen thwmselves to be incompetent in government, but, much as one might dislike them, one cannot use that to assert massive, overt corruption of an unprecedented scale, or to dismiss every new initiative and expect to get away with it unchallenged.

I take it you didn't follow the tribunals then. I think you are naive if you think that FF are not going to save themselves and their cronies first. The banks were not going to fail under FFs watch no matter what the cost or the outcome. They would never live it down and it would haunt them for decades. The D4 professional class were up to their tonsils in property mania. To let them fall or let property prices crash was not an option for FF it would have finished them as a party.

This way they can claim they have done the right thing and taken the correct course of action for recovery. We will most likely default on sovereign debt but I'm sure they will try to spin their way out of that one when it happens. Of course if they can postpone it until they are out of office then they are laughing. Believe me there will be no remorse. They will sit in opposition claiming their salaries, pensions and expenses, laughing at the incumbent government as they try to deal with the fallout and wait patiently for the inevitable backlash which will return them to office.

What we are witnessing is the culmination of decades of corruption, nepotism, me feinism, arrogance, ignorance and incompetence.

The thing is when you have gotten away with so much you will keep trying to get away with more until you don't.