The John F Kennedy assassination: The Three Tramps

Martin Timothy

E Howard Hunt



Three tramps were taken into custody in Dallas the day President Kennedy was killed, they were in a rail car on the tracks adjacent to the crime scene, the figure speaking to the policeman at the door of the TSBD is thought to be Lee Harvey Oswald!



The one at the back wearing the hat, has been positively identified by his son St John Hunt, as E Howard Hunt of Watergate fame.. Around 1975 I saw a poster about who killed JFK that had a picture of the three tramps, my dad was in the picture! St John Hunt, Rolling Stone Magazine April 5, 2007.. Study EHH's many works of fiction, to find encoded tracts that portray the truth.

The taller of the other two has been identified as Charles Harrelson, father of TV actor Woody Harrelson.



Barbara Walters Interview, aired March,'97.

Woody Harrelson grew up in Texas and Ohio, the troubled middle child of three brothers, W. was a self-described momma's boy, he didn't have an alternative -- his father was twice convicted of murder and is still in prison. It was a difficult upbringing at best, but W. eventually stopped acting out and started acting.



B. You know, you've had so much in your own childhood that most kids never have to face. It's fairly well-known, if anyone has read anything about you or talked to you, that when you were seven years old, your father went off to prison, convicted of murder. Tell me how you feel today, what the story is today.

W. Well, he is in prison right now for the killing of a federal judge,



W. (with gravity) I think that it was not a fair trial, especially because the guy who supposedly hired my father to commit the murder was later acquitted--on a retrial.

B. Woody, do you think your father is innocent of that second murder? That's what I've heard..

W. I'm not saying my father's a saint, but I think he's innocent of that, yeah..

B. Are you trying to have the case opened up--trying to have it investigated, trying to set him free?

W. Well, let's put it this way--I haven't given up hope.

B. Hmm..You said once that you thought your father was a CIA operative--yes?

W. Yeah he was ..

B. How do you know? What proof?

W. Ah see I shouldn't get into this right now. This is where we're gonna get into trouble.

B. But this is something that you feel and that you're trying to work on?

W. I know it's true, but ah you know...(shrugging)

B. Does it make a difference?

W. That he was trained by the CIA? Yeah I think it makes a difference, yeah..



Charles Harrelson in 1982.

The third tramp



Charles Frederick Rogers, wanted in Houston TX for killing and dismembering both his parents in 1965, the press dubbed the killings The Ice Box Murders.



The young Charles Frederick Rogers pictured above, in graduation robes and in Naval uniform.



The man at extreme left pictured in a group with Lee Harvey Oswald, has the same stooped profile, and an identical hairline to the third tramp's hairline in the pic above left center, which resembles the hairline on the left side of the sailors face,



Additional testimony that he is a person of interest, is that on most websites this figure has been cropped from the pic, both shots were taken in New Orleans, when LHO was distributing pamphlets on behalf of the CIA front Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/20...ious_montro.php

By John Nova Lomax in Crime, Houston 101, Aug. 6 2009 ​

On June 23 1965, a concerned relative of elderly couple Fred C. and Edwina Rogers, asked the Houston police to check on the couple, after they hadn't answered the phone for a few days.​

Houston cop C.M. Bullock, and his partner forced their way into the locked house at 1815 Driscoll in Montrose, and found the the heads, legs and torsos of Mr. and Mrs. Rogers inside their refrigerator.

Fred Rogers had been beaten to death with a hammer and his eyes had been gouged out, his wife had a single bullet wound to the head, both had been dismembered in a bathroom, some of their innards and sex organs were later found in a nearby sewer line, the rest of their remains were never found.

A blood trail led to the bedroom of their reclusive 43 year old son Charles Frederick Rogers, a Navy veteran and UH educated seismologist, who had suddenly quit his job, and mysteriously disappeared several years before.

Neighbors said that his only communication with his parents, came in the form of notes shoved under the door of his attic bedroom, where police also found a blood stained keyhole saw.

John R. Craig and A. Rogers Phillip, authors of a 1992 book, claim Rogers was a hit man for the CIA, who along with Charles Harrelson's and E Howard Hunt, were the Grassy Knoll gunmen of JFK assassination lore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DLX45-WFSY

Local forensic artist Lois Gibson maintains that Rogers was one of the "three tramps" mysteriously arrested and released by Dallas police after the killing of the president. With regards to the murders of his parents, police sought Rogers as a material witness in what became known as "The Icebox Murders."

In 1975 Charles Frederick Rogers, was ruled legally dead by Judge Arthur C. Lesher.

Rogers is at the front, Charles Harrelson is behind him, E Howard Hunt is at the back wearing a hat.

Di0genes

onspiracist researchers have a history of "seeing" things in photos that cooler-headed analysts can't see, and can even prove to be impossible. The same is true of the "identifications" of the tramps. The House Select Committee on Assassinations commissioned forensic anthropologists to examine the photos of the tramps, and the photos of the (then) top five "suspects." Forensic anthropologists have the skills to go beyond merely eyeballing photos. They compare the metric and morphological characteristics of people in photos to see which match, and which don't. These are the same scientists used by the House Select Committee to confirm that the person in the Bethesda autopsy photos was in fact John Kennedy, and to debunk the notion that there are "two Oswalds" in extant photos purporting to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
The Committee's experts showed that Hunt, Sturgis, Carswell, and Vallee could not have been tramps. They could not preclude Fred Chrisman being a tramp, noting that he "strongly resembles" the third tramp. However, Committee investigators found that Chrisman had an iron-clad alibi for the day of the assassination. He was teaching high school in Oregon in 1963, and three of his fellow teachers testified that he was in school on the day of the assassination (HSCA Report, p. 92).
Other conspiracy factoids were debunked by the HSCA. For example, the notion that the tramps were "suspiciously well-dressed." The HSCA noted:

(675) All three men are shabbily dressed, befitting their apparent status as vagrants. Tramp A, however, is the better attired, wearing well-fitting jeans and a tweed-like sports jacket, although this, judged by 1963 styles, was several years out of date. Tramp B is wearing ill-fitting slacks and a double-breasted suit coat. Tramp C, from his battered fedora to his won-out shoes, has managed to achieve a sartorial effect similar to what one would expect had he been fired from a cannon through a Salvation Army thrift shop. (676) While such clothing might be a disguise, their footwear seems consistent with their classification as vagrants. All three men are shod in worn, low-cut oxfords that appear to be leather-soled. Tramp C's shoes seem to be several sizes too large for him.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, ms sans serif, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][SIZE=+1] Release the Files? Why bother?[/SIZE] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, ms sans serif, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]How did conspiracists respond to the identification of the tramps? While some accepted what the released Dallas Police files showed, many simply refused to believe the documents. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, ms sans serif, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[*]Authors Alan J. Weberman and Michael Canfield issued a new edition of their book Coup D'Etat in America, which insists that the three tramps shown in the arrest records are other tramps, and not the real "three tramps."
[*]The daughter of Chauncey Holt spoke at the 2000 "November in Dallas" conference, defending the claim that her father was one of the tramps.
[*]In his book The Killing of a President Robert Groden mentions the tramps real names, but continues to repeat conspiracy factoids about the "so-called 'tramps.'"
[*]The book Murder in Dealey Plaza, released in 2000, touts the "Chauncey Holt" story as authentic.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, ms sans serif, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The unwillingness of the conspiracists to accept the arrest records as authentic shows how farcical their demand "release the documents!" has been. Why loudly demand that the government release documents, when you are not going to believe them when they are released? [/SIZE][/FONT] The conspiracists were batting zero for five.
But of course, they not only ignored the HSCA findings excluding the previously "identified" tramps, they continued to add to the roster of "suspects." Further "identifications" included:

1. Charles Harrelson, convicted murderer in prison in Texas, and father of actor Woody Harrelson, "identified" as the tall tramp.
2. Chauncey Holt, a man who "confessed" to being the oldest of the tramps (the last in line).
3. Charles Frederick Rogers, a man who was wanted in Texas for killing his own parents, and who was "identified" as "Frenchy," the first tramp in line.

See Michael Benson, Who's Who in the JFK Assassination, 1993. The next big break in the case came when the Dallas City Council voted to release all city records having to do with the assassination. Journalist Mary La Fontaine, who was looking through the recently released records, happened to look at a list of records released earlier in 1989. There she found the arrest records that showed the tramps to be:
Harold DoyleView his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.
John Forester GedneyView his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.
Gus W. AbramsView his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.

Were these fellows in fact the three tramps? Ray and Mary LaFontaine, working for the tabloid TV program "A Current Affair," set out to find Harold Doyle, whose address was listed on the arrest record as Red Jacket, West Virginia. The trail led from West Virginia to Amarillo, Texas, where the LaFontaines found one of Doyle's former neighbors who remembered him talking about his arrest in Dallas. Doyle was finally located in Klamath Falls, Oregon. He told his story on camera (embedded video), and was also questioned by the FBI.
The FBI and private researchers sought the other two tramps. Gedney was located in Melbourne, Florida, serving as a municipal officer, a respected member of the community who had not spoken about former life as a vagabond until interviewed by researcher Billy Cox, and by the FBI. Both Doyle and Gedney told the same story of spending the night before the assassination at a rescue mission. According to Oliver Revell of the Dallas FBI office:

Both commented that they had gotten fresh clothes, showered, shaved and had a meal. They headed back to the railroad yard when they heard all the commotion and sirens and everything, and they asked what happened. They were told the president had been shot.

See The Washington Post, March 4, 1992, and Dateline Dallas, Winter, 1993.
Harold Doyle Abrams, the oldest of the tramps, was deceased. But researcher Kenneth Formet interviewed his sister, with whom he had lived the last 15 years of his life. She remembered his vagabond days, saying "he was always on the go hopping trains and drinking wine." When shown a picture of the Dealey Plaza tramps she responded "Yep, that's my Bill!" (Dateline Dallas, Winter, 1993)
Thus one of the greatest of assassination mysteries sprang from one of the most mundane Dealey Plaza realities. Three hobos swept up in the dragnet produced by the assassination were arrested and released. Suspicious of authority and fearful of being blamed, they remained quiet about their identities until the surviving two were tracked down almost 30 years later. Never objectively "mysterious" they only seemed that way because the absence of information left room for wild speculation. Thus the tramps are a metaphor for all the broader "mysteries" of the JFK murder case.

From http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm

chainsaws

Turning the three tramps into assassins requires incredible jumps of logic and requires explaining.

The conspiracy theories began probably when Malcolm Kilduff held a press conference where he announced President Kennedy was dead and speculated on how he was wounded.

The doctors had told him he had a wound in the throat and a wound in the temple - they had not turned him over and had not discovered the bullet entry wounds in the back of the neck and head.

Kilduff speculated that Kennedy was shot in the throat and front of the head.

When the Warren Commission concluded that three shots were fired from behind and that Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck and back of the head, the conspiracy theorists already convinced that Oswald was rubbed by Ruby as part of a wider plot, set to work.

Obviously they would have to admit there was no conspiracy if they accepted the government version so they claimed Kennedy was shot from the front.

They first claimed he was fired on from the overpass in front of the limo.

However the overpass had cops and workmen there who saw no shooter and a frontal shot would have meant there was a bullet hole in the windshield - there was a crack and a dent chrome frame which was soon never to be mentioned again in any conspiracy literature on the subject - so they jumped on the testimony of a cop who jumped from his bike and ran up the knoll and a group of people followed him up to the picket fence.

They claimed that Lee Bowers who was on duty in the control tower saw men behind the fence shooting at the motorcade and they claimed the Moorman polaroid snapshot of the shooting shows a shooter wearing a police uniform on the grassy knoll firing a rifle.

The tramps who were picked up and later released and therefore are not mentioned in the Warren Report and are briefly mentioned in the testimony of arresting police officers suddenly have huge significance.

Suddenly incidents that have no sinister import, are 'proof' of a conspiracy.

The iron-clad forensic evidence that shows beyond all reasonable doubt that Kennedy was indeed shot from the 6th floor window by Oswald's weapon is thrown out to facilitate the conspiracy argument.

Talk about switched bodies, surgically altered wounds, 'back and to the left' in the Zapruder film - even though the 8mm home movie shows an exit wound explode in the top front right of the President's skull - is brought up to support the conspiracy case.

A counter narrative which seeks to alter and confuse every single piece of evidence grew up with the result that many claim to be experts on the assassination by reading the mountains of conspiracy literature but yet have never actually read the Warren Report.

They claim to know that the Warren Report is ludicrous - the zig-zagging 'magic' bullet and the back of the President's head blasted out - yet do not know having not read the Warren Report - which is of course propaganda garbage anyway - that no such ludicrous claims were ever made in the Warren Report.

The three tramps have been therefore been transformed from innocent hobos into government assassins.

bog master

chainsaws wrote: »

Turning the three tramps into assassins requires incredible jumps of logic and requires explaining.

Indeed it does, but as someone who doubts the Warren Report, why did it take nearly 30 years to confirm the identities of the 3 tramps?

The conspiracy theories began probably when Malcolm Kilduff held a press conference where he announced President Kennedy was dead and speculated on how he was wounded.

The doctors had told him he had a wound in the throat and a wound in the temple - they had not turned him over and had not discovered the bullet entry wounds in the back of the neck and head.

Kilduff speculated that Kennedy was shot in the throat and front of the head.

If Kilduff was told by the attending doctors about the wounds, it is hardly speculation. In fact Kilduff pointed to the side of the head, ie the temple and that is shown in a photograph from the press conference.

The iron-clad forensic evidence that shows beyond all reasonable doubt that Kennedy was indeed shot from the 6th floor window by Oswald's weapon is thrown out to facilitate the conspiracy argument.

A counter narrative which seeks to alter and confuse every single piece of evidence grew up with the result that many claim to be experts on the assassination by reading the mountains of conspiracy literature but yet have never actually read the Warren Report.

They claim to know that the Warren Report is ludicrous - the zig-zagging 'magic' bullet and the back of the President's head blasted out - yet do not know having not read the Warren Report - which is of course propaganda garbage anyway - that no such ludicrous claims were ever made in the Warren Report.

Having read most of the Warren Report and the Hearings and Exhibits, it does not add up. It was a poorly executed investigation from day one, along with the FBI and DPD work, combined with a farce of an autopsy.
There are major questions and conflicting testimony in almost every facet of this case. If it was so clear cut, then why is the comtroversey still with us from 1963?

If the full truth ever comes out, I will be first in line to put my hands up and say I was wrong. Sadly, I dont think I will be around if and when the truth ever comes out.

chainsaws

Indeed it does, but as someone who doubts the Warren Report, why did it take nearly 30 years to confirm the identities of the 3 tramps?

The three tramps have been proven to be nothing other than tramps as their arrest records clearly show.

If Kilduff was told by the attending doctors about the wounds, it is hardly speculation. In fact Kilduff pointed to the side of the head, ie the temple and that is shown in a photograph from the press conference.

Kilduff was not a doctor and he was pressed by the media for an opinion and he gave it based on incomplete information from the doctors, none of whom were pathologists. The subsequent autopsy, x-rays, autopsy photos and pathologist testimony is irrefutable. Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck and the back of the head.

Having read most of the Warren Report and the Hearings and Exhibits, it does not add up. It was a poorly executed investigation from day one, along with the FBI and DPD work, combined with a farce of an autopsy.
There are major questions and conflicting testimony in almost every facet of this case. If it was so clear cut, then why is the comtroversey still with us from 1963?

I defy anyone to read the Warren Report and still have any reasonable doubts about Oswald's guilt.

1. Oswald’s rifle was found near the "sniper's nest" in the Book Depository building, and a bullet involved in the shooting had markings proving it was fired from that rifle.

2. Oswald was present on the sixth floor around the time of the shooting, and was even spotted in the window.

3. Medical evidence showed that all bullets striking the motorcade came from behind.

4. Oswald’s flight from the crime scene indicates involvement, and his murder of Dallas Police officer Tippit proves his capacity for violence.

5. Since no one could have known that the motorcade would pass by the Book Depository building when Oswald got his job there in October 1963, no conspiracy could have placed him there.

6. Oswald was a sociopathic loner and malcontent, and thus had no associates who would have aided him in the crime.

7. Jack Ruby did not "rub out" Oswald. The timing of his entry to the police basement was pure luck and could not have been planned, since Oswald was supposed to have been moved earlier. And it makes no sense to silence Oswald--then someone would have to silence Ruby.

If the full truth ever comes out, I will be first in line to put my hands up and say I was wrong. Sadly, I dont think I will be around if and when the truth ever comes out.

The full truth has come out and if you took the trouble to look. Hands up.

The only people who believe there was a conspiracy are those who have never looked at the real evidence and have only read conspiracy orientated literature about the JFK murder or are conspiracy theorists who have cynically made a career out of deliberate falsehoods - Mark Lane et al

kryogen

Bill Hicks says it was a conspiracy and thats good enough for me

bog master

chainsaws wrote: »

The three tramps have been proven to be nothing other than tramps as their arrest records clearly show.

I agree and never personally believed they were involved. But this could have been cleared up a long time ago. Why was it not?

Kilduff was not a doctor and he was pressed by the media for an opinion and he gave it based on incomplete information from the doctors, none of whom were pathologists. The subsequent autopsy, x-rays, autopsy photos and pathologist testimony is irrefutable. Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck and the back of the head.

The autopsy was incomplete and poorly done.
Which autopsy report, the one Humes burned in his fireplace or the one he submitted. And his original notes that he also burned.

Why has Finck's autopsy notes gone missing.

Humes and Boswell had extremely limited experience with gunshot wounds. Finck was a ballistics expert, I will grant you that.

Photographs of the autopsy which are missing as per Humes and Stringer the photographer. No Id tags on any of the photographs. Stringer seeing photographs and claiming he did not take them. Floyd Reibe, Stringer's assistant testified that photographs he took were not in the official inventory.

Finck being denied an examination of the clothing.

Humes and Boswell denied access to photos when writing their report.

Various experts describing some of the photos as very poor in quality.

Large number of witnesses in Dallas and at the autopsy have radically different recollections of location and size of the head wound.

Where is the brain? Why was it not sectioned? Why was it not weighed when removed? And when weighed at the Supplemental Autopsy, ie the brain examination, it weighs in at 1500 grams. The average adult brain is 1300-1400 grams and Parkland Dr.'s and the Autopsy Report and various witnesses spoke of large amount of brain tissue damged and missing.

I defy anyone to read the Warren Report and still have any reasonable doubts about Oswald's guilt.

I have read the WR, thank you. However please note that I am not making any claims of who else was involved, who fired the fatal shot, who was involved. I look at the evidence and testimony and try to judge does it all add up. Why are there such discrpenacies in testimony?













.

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

I agree and never personally believed they were involved. But this could have been cleared up a long time ago. Why was it not?



The autopsy was incomplete and poorly done.
Which autopsy report, the one Humes burned in his fireplace or the one he submitted. And his original notes that he also burned.

Why has Finck's autopsy notes gone missing.

Humes and Boswell had extremely limited experience with gunshot wounds. Finck was a ballistics expert, I will grant you that.

Photographs of the autopsy which are missing as per Humes and Stringer the photographer. No Id tags on any of the photographs. Stringer seeing photographs and claiming he did not take them. Floyd Reibe, Stringer's assistant testified that photographs he took were not in the official inventory.

Finck being denied an examination of the clothing.

Humes and Boswell denied access to photos when writing their report.

Various experts describing some of the photos as very poor in quality.

Large number of witnesses in Dallas and at the autopsy have radically different recollections of location and size of the head wound.

Where is the brain? Why was it not sectioned? Why was it not weighed when removed? And when weighed at the Supplemental Autopsy, ie the brain examination, it weighs in at 1500 grams. The average adult brain is 1300-1400 grams and Parkland Dr.'s and the Autopsy Report and various witnesses spoke of large amount of brain tissue damged and missing.



I have read the WR, thank you. However please note that I am not making any claims of who else was involved, who fired the fatal shot, who was involved. I look at the evidence and testimony and try to judge does it all add up. Why are there such discrpenacies in testimony?













.

A.The conspiracy theorists who made allegations about the 3 men made no effort to clear up the issue of the three tramps. They instead ludicrously turned them into government assassins.

B. The autopsy was heavily influenced by the Kennedy family and JFK's military aides in particular Admiral Burkley who was present. It was Jacqueline Kennedy who wanted the autopsy performed in Bethesda because her husband and been in the Navy.The family did not want a thorough autopsy because of JFK's various ailments which were hidden from the public and would have been politically damaging if they were exposed.
The pathologists nonetheless determined the nature of the wounds - the non-fatal wounds in the neck and the wounds in the head which were both caused by two bullets fired from above and behind.

C. Humes burned his autopsy notes because he says they had some of the President's blood on them. He copied them and burned the originals because he did not want them to become a macabre museum piece like the bloodstained chair that Lincoln in sat when he was assassinated.
Finck's notes are also missing for the same reason.

D. The pathologists present were selected because the Kennedy family wanted the autopsy over with quickly. Robert Kennedy was calling Bethesda urging them to hurry up and asking why the autopsy was not finished.
The HSCA had photo experts examine the autopsy photos for fakery and they were found to be genuine.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/autopsy2.txt
Humes, Boswell and Finck were shown the autopsy photos in 1967 and they found them to be genuine. This is their report.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt
It is clear therefore that the dead man with the head and neck wounds in the autopsy photos is JFK and there is no issues of doubt whatsoever.
The brain is missing because Robert Kennedy had it destroyed.
This is report on the issue.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/brain.txt

This is an interesting essay which outlines how the findings of the HSCA matched the findings of the Warren Report after the conducted interviews and re-examined the autopsy and other physical evidence and testimony. They demonstrated allegations of fakery and dishonesty were unfounded.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/fakeda.txt

If Finck did not get to examine the clothing is irrelevant.
The clothing was examined. A bullet wound was found in back of both the jacket and shirt, two slits with fibres pushed outward were found in the front of the shirt collar and there was a nick in the knot of the tie. The blood stains were consistent with blood coming out of JFK's wounds. The lower position of the rear bullet holes in the both the jacket and shirt indicate as was proven by photographs that Kennedy's jacket and shirt were bunched up as he sat in the rear of the limo when he was shot from behind.
This is a photo of the shirt collar.



E. In my opinion you have made a deliberate misreading of the Warren Report in an attempt find gaps in the official story where none exist in order to support the peddling of conspiracy theories.

bog master

chainsaws wrote: »

bog master wrote: »

A.The conspiracy theorists who made allegations about the 3 men made no effort to clear up the issue of the three tramps. They instead ludicrously turned them into government assassins.

First, can we agree that so called conspiracy theorists come in all sizes.Some have devoted a large amount of time studying and investigating the case, and some have just jumped on the bandwagon. It was never a facet of the case that I was intertested in, so must profess some ignornance ie the three tramps. But I would be quite sure, certain people did try to clear up the issue, and again I ask, why did it take nearly 30 years for the DPD to release the files? Certainly their delay is not proof of a conspiracy, but does it not raise an eyebrow?

B. The autopsy was heavily influenced by the Kennedy family and JFK's military aides in particular Admiral Burkley who was present. It was Jacqueline Kennedy who wanted the autopsy performed in Bethesda because her husband and been in the Navy

.

Absolutely make sense why Bethesda was chosen. But the AFIP was much better equipped to do a gunshot autopsy, but I believe it makes no difference to the final autopsy proceedure or report.

The family did not want a thorough autopsy because of JFK's various ailments which were hidden from the public and would have been politically damaging if they were exposed.

I have no problem with the above, other than Humes testified that Burkley did not advise him not to do a full autopsy, just avoid the adrenals. Boswell testifies Humes was told to do a limited autopsy. Humes claims Burkley was in the autopsy room, Boswell says he never saw Burkley in the autopsy room.

Humes,"the scene in the autopsy room was like trying to do neurosurgery in a three ring circus"

Boswell, "well for all the people in there, it was very quiet....very quiet
and subdued."

Boswell replying when asked, did you understand at any point during the course of the autopsy that anyone wanted the autopsy to be expedited?

Boswell answer "NO"

Now who do you believe here?

The pathologists nonetheless determined the nature of the wounds - the non-fatal wounds in the neck and the wounds in the head which were both caused by two bullets fired from above and behind./QUOTE]

Will get back to you on this statement,

C. Humes burned his autopsy notes because he says they had some of the President's blood on them. He copied them and burned the originals because he did not want them to become a macabre museum piece like the bloodstained chair that Lincoln in sat when he was assassinated.
Finck's notes are also missing for the same reason.

Humes burned the autopsy notes for that reason? I could go with that
explanation in a pinch, BUT why burn the initial autopsy report, that had no bloodstains on it. Did he burn it because it did not reflect the transiting neck wound as of Fri Night or early Saturday morning? Boswell testified they left Bethesda and went to Humes house and wrote the autopsy report.Or shall I say Autopsy Report No 1.

chainsaws

These two videos should interest anyone interesting in trying to peddling conspiracy Bs- the first closely recreating the 'magic' bullet trajectory through both Kennedy and Connally and the second closely recreating the fatal headshot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZRUNYZY71g

chainsaws

This video shows what Oswald would have seen through his scope.

This animation shows how Oswald fired his shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbbIjki-HLo

This video shows a CBS 1967 reenactment of the shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsOEJF6qoy4

bog master

Chainsaws

I have seen all what you have posted many times before. Now, you dont know my stance other than I doubt the official conclusions of the Warren Report.

Perhaps you might reply to some of the points raised in some of my postings.

Again my stance is, there is so many contradictions in testimony and physical evidence in almost every facet in this case that it makes me a bit of a disbeliever.

You might prove that the shooting feat is a feasibility, but that does not prove it happened that way.

Anyway, I await your comments from my previous post.

All the best

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

Chainsaws

I have seen all what you have posted many times before. Now, you dont know my stance other than I doubt the official conclusions of the Warren Report.

Perhaps you might reply to some of the points raised in some of my postings.

Again my stance is, there is so many contradictions in testimony and physical evidence in almost every facet in this case that it makes me a bit of a disbeliever.

You might prove that the shooting feat is a feasibility, but that does not prove it happened that way.

Anyway, I await your comments from my previous post.

All the best

Did you watch the videos?

The physical evidence shows that JFK could only have been shot from above and behind in the back of the neck and the back of the head from the 6th floor of the TSBD with Oswald's rifle and no other weapon.

The reenactments in the videos I just showed you debunk every single conspiracy theory put forward.

Conspiracy theorists have claimed it was not possible to fire three shots accurately in 5.6 secs with the Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38.
CBS debunked that absurdity back in 1967.

Conspiracy theorists claimed there was not a clear line of sight from the 6th floor window.
The Warren Commission showed there was.

Conspiracy theorists claim it is was not possible for a bullet to survive relatively intact after creating 7 wounds in both JFK and Connally.
The 'Beyond The Magic Bullet' team debunked that lie by recreating the shot almost exactly.

Conspiracy theorists claim that Kennedy's head wounds were caused by a shot from the grassy knoll.
The 'Inside The Target Car' documentary team led by Gary Mack, the director of the Sixth Floor Museum proved conclusively that a grassy knoll shot would have created a small entrance wound in the temple and a larger exit wound in the left side of the skull.
A scenario with a bullet striking the back of the skull and exiting the top front right side of the President's head matches the Zapruder film exactly and is entirely consistent with the wounds described by the autopsy doctors and the damage visible in the autopsy photos and the autopsy x-rays.

The whole bullet found on Connally's stretcher at Parkland hospital and the fragments of a bullet found in the limo were matced to Oswald's rifle - the grooves on the bullet and fragments matched the grooves on test bullets fired from the rifle which are a fingerprint that identifies murder weapons.

The obvious conclusion is that only Oswald's rifle could have killed Kennedy.

Oswald brought the weapon to work disguised as a bogus 'curtain rods' parcel, he was last seen by his co-workers on the 6th floor before the shooting, Howard Brennan positively identified him as the man he saw in the 6th floor window shooting a rifle. Oswald fled the building after the shooting and went home and left minutes later wearing a zip up jacket before minutes later Officer Tippet was murdered by a man matching his description.

Oswald's jacket was found discarded in a car lot not far from the murder.

Oswald was arrested in a movie theatre carrying the same types of .38 revolver ammunition and his revolver found on his possession which he drew and attempted to shoot the officers who arrested him, was proven to the weapon in the Tippet murder.

The police were alert by a shoe salesman who saw Oswald duck into the porch of his shop to avoid a police car. The salesman noticed he matched the description of a suspect broadcast on the radio and followed him into the movie theatre and discovered he had not paid for his ticket.

It is utterly ludicrous to finger anyone else as a suspect.

There were never any other suspects arrested, no other rifle was ever found, no other spent cases were ever found and the overwhelming majority of witnesses to the shooting agreed three shots came from the Book Depository.

Fibres of the same shirt Oswald wore to work were found in the crevasse between the butt plate and wooden stock of the weapon while his palm print was found on the barrel when it was dissembled.

Claims of a conspiracy are absolutely absurd.

bog master

Chainsaws

Steady on, we can get to all your new points later. I would like to deal with the autopsy first and still await your comments to my last post concerning the autopsy and am currently writing a new one, so be ready.

All the best

bog master

Perhaps for now could we just deal with the autopsy, although there are many other areas to debate.

So, if I may, allow me to put some questions to you.

Did the autopsy follow standard procedures and protocol, for a gunshot victim?

Were the pathologists in attendance experienced in gun shot wounds?

Were the photographs of the body and wounds of the standard expected when
The subject of the autopsy is the President of the United States?
HSCA and ARRB did not think so!

Why did the chief photographer and his assistant testify that some of the
Photos they took were not their work or photographs they remember taking are not in the official collection?

Why was the autopsy (supposedly limited in its scope)? Or not, read testimony
Of Humes and Boswell.

What authority did Burke have to make any orders? He was the
Personal Doctor to a deceased President and did he have any power at that time?

Why was the initial draft of the Autopsy Report and notes burned? I know we covered
This before but have no response so far.

Why does the autopsy report about the location and size of the head wound differ from attending doctors at Parkland and other witnesses?

Why does the time of arrival of the body to Bethesda differ from witness to
witness?

Read the report of the MDW and its members, the military guard of honour escort that brought the coffin into the Morgue, why does their time differ from when Humes said
He received the body?

So many areas of conflict, does not say anything to you? Maybe its all a coincidence, I don’t know anymore because I have followed this for a long long time. Certain pro conspiracy theories or supposed facts get proven wrong, then, new ones follow
With more questions.

All I ask with anyone I post/debate with is keep an open mind, look at the big picture.
Weigh up the evidence and then make up your own mind.

Lets face, governments all over the world do not have the best track record
In telling its people the truth.

All the best

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

Perhaps for now could we just deal with the autopsy, although there are many other areas to debate.

So, if I may, allow me to put some questions to you.

Did the autopsy follow standard procedures and protocol, for a gunshot victim?

Were the pathologists in attendance experienced in gun shot wounds?

Were the photographs of the body and wounds of the standard expected when
The subject of the autopsy is the President of the United States?
HSCA and ARRB did not think so!

Why did the chief photographer and his assistant testify that some of the
Photos they took were not their work or photographs they remember taking are not in the official collection?

Why was the autopsy (supposedly limited in its scope)? Or not, read testimony
Of Humes and Boswell.

What authority did Burke have to make any orders? He was the
Personal Doctor to a deceased President and did he have any power at that time?

Why was the initial draft of the Autopsy Report and notes burned? I know we covered
This before but have no response so far.

Why does the autopsy report about the location and size of the head wound differ from attending doctors at Parkland and other witnesses?

Why does the time of arrival of the body to Bethesda differ from witness to
witness?

Read the report of the MDW and its members, the military guard of honour escort that brought the coffin into the Morgue, why does their time differ from when Humes said
He received the body?

So many areas of conflict, does not say anything to you? Maybe its all a coincidence, I don’t know anymore because I have followed this for a long long time. Certain pro conspiracy theories or supposed facts get proven wrong, then, new ones follow
With more questions.

All I ask with anyone I post/debate with is keep an open mind, look at the big picture.
Weigh up the evidence and then make up your own mind.

Lets face, governments all over the world do not have the best track record
In telling its people the truth.

All the best

None of those questions are of any relevancy whatsoever.

The HSCA - as I have already told you in my previous posts - examined all the autopsy evidence - photos and x-rays and found them to be genuine and not fakes as conspiracy theorists claim and as you are clearly implying.

The dead man on the autopsy table was JFK and the comparisons between Kennedy's pre-assassination x-rays and autopsy x-rays prove that it is also the same man.
The x-rays of the skull matches the wounds visible in the autopsy photos and match the testimony of the pathology doctors.

More importantly they match the head wound visible in the Zapruder film.



Mod Note: NSFW http://laura-knight-jadczyk.com/images/jfk_colou_%20autopsy_sm.jpeg

Mod Note: NSFW http://www.jfklancer.com/pub/md/jfk03clr.JPG

Mod Note: NSFW http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1268954048014/hscadox-full.jpg

This drawing shows the location of metal fragments inside the head showing the path of the bullet.





They clearly show that two bullets hit the President - in the back of the neck and head.

Mod Note: NSFW http://teaka.free.fr/Pictures/kennedy-back.jpg

Mod Note: NSFW http://teaka.free.fr/Pictures/kennedy-front.jpg



We can therefore lay any questions about the autopsy to rest.

bog master

From Chainsaws "We can therefore lay any questions about the autopsy to rest."

So in post number 3 on 7/10 you say "The ironclad foresnic evidence that shows beyond all doubt that Kennedy was indeed shot from the 6th floor window by Oswald'weapon is thrown out to facilitate the conspiracy argument."

And in your last post you say "None of those questions are of any relevancy whatsoever.

That makes you fully believe in all of the forenesic evidence of which the autopsy is a major part. I point out a few flaws in procedure and evidence and testimony concerning the autopsy, and ask your opinion, and now it is suddenly irrelevant!

If you have no opinion on some of the questions and facts I put to you, fair enough, but you seem to reply with other peoples opinions and information, but seem loathe to offer your own or answer some of my questions.

All the best

bog master

Chainsaws

For some reason cannot quote you directly from your last post, however

I never stated or implied the photographs were fake. I will quote of my post No 7 on 13/10,,,,

"Photographs of the autopsy which are missing as per Humes and Stringer the photographer. No Id tags on any of the photographs. Stringer seeing photographs and claiming he did not take them. Floyd Reibe, Stringer's assistant testified that photographs he took were not in the official inventory."[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Gary/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

From Chainsaws "We can therefore lay any questions about the autopsy to rest."

So in post number 3 on 7/10 you say "The ironclad foresnic evidence that shows beyond all doubt that Kennedy was indeed shot from the 6th floor window by Oswald'weapon is thrown out to facilitate the conspiracy argument."

And in your last post you say "None of those questions are of any relevancy whatsoever.

That makes you fully believe in all of the forenesic evidence of which the autopsy is a major part. I point out a few flaws in procedure and evidence and testimony concerning the autopsy, and ask your opinion, and now it is suddenly irrelevant!

If you have no opinion on some of the questions and facts I put to you, fair enough, but you seem to reply with other peoples opinions and information, but seem loathe to offer your own or answer some of my questions.

All the best

You are just nit picking because you want to keep a fantasy alive.
Any fool can see what the physical evidence says.
It's an open and shut case. Kennedy was hit in the neck and head by two bullets from Oswald's rifle. Physical evidence, circumstantial evidence and eye witness testimony puts Oswald at the scene.
It couldn't be more simple.;)

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

Chainsaws

For some reason cannot quote you directly from your last post, however

I never stated or implied the photographs were fake. I will quote of my post No 7 on 13/10,,,,

"Photographs of the autopsy which are missing as per Humes and Stringer the photographer. No Id tags on any of the photographs. Stringer seeing photographs and claiming he did not take them. Floyd Reibe, Stringer's assistant testified that photographs he took were not in the official inventory."[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Gary/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]

Who cares?:D

The autopsy photos, x-rays, autopsy report and pathologist testimony clinches it and supports the Warren Report.

bog master

Chainsaws

The brain is missing because Robert Kennedy had it destroyed.
This is report on the issue.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/brain.txt

Read the conclusions now from that site, because you did not! (150) Consequently, although the committee has not been able to uncover any direct evidence of the fate of the missing materials, circumstantial evidence tends to show that Robert Kennedy either destroyed these materials or otherwise rendered them inaccessible.

bog master

Might you have an opinion on your esteened Dr Humes and the autopsy report and this quote in his Warren Commission testimony? This is regarding the head shot/

" Scientifically sir, it is impossible for it to have been fired from other than behind, or to have exited from other than behind.!

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

Might you have an opinion on your esteened Dr Humes and the autopsy report and this quote in his Warren Commission testimony? This is regarding the head shot/

" Scientifically sir, it is impossible for it to have been fired from other than behind, or to have exited from other than behind.!

I read all of Humes' testimony.

He makes it quite clear that he believed Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck and head.

http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/history/wc_period/warren_report/JamesJHumes.html

bog master

chainsaws wrote: »

I read all of Humes' testimony.

He makes it quite clear that he believed Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck and head.

I would somewhat agree his Warren Commission testimony seems to indicate that. However, when looking at other apsects of an improperly conducted autopsy that failed to follow accepted procedures, that failed to examine the clothing, riddled with discrpenacies amongst the particpants,his later testimony to the HSCA, (in which he seemed to, then sort of retracted that he misplaced the head wound by 4 inches or so), can anyone seriously take his autopsy report (s), he burned one, possibly 2, drafts,seriously.

If you are well versed in this subject, you might wish to look at the HSCA interview and even more damaging is the ARRB interviews with some of the main participants. Contradiction after contradiction.Some of the extreme medical testimony and terms is hard to follow, but we have Google to help us out. Will gladly post up some of the huge contradictions among those who testified.

Look forward to your reply in due course!

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

I would somewhat agree his Warren Commission testimony seems to indicate that. However, when looking at other apsects of an improperly conducted autopsy that failed to follow accepted procedures, that failed to examine the clothing, riddled with discrpenacies amongst the particpants,his later testimony to the HSCA, (in which he seemed to, then sort of retracted that he misplaced the head wound by 4 inches or so), can anyone seriously take his autopsy report (s), he burned one, possibly 2, drafts,seriously.

If you are well versed in this subject, you might wish to look at the HSCA interview and even more damaging is the ARRB interviews with some of the main participants. Contradiction after contradiction.Some of the extreme medical testimony and terms is hard to follow, but we have Google to help us out. Will gladly post up some of the huge contradictions among those who testified.

Look forward to your reply in due course!

So what about contradictions?
Human beings are fallible and their recollections often contradict eachother.
The physical evidence is though is rock solid.
Three shots and two hits - neck and head fired by Oswald's weapon.

bog master

chainsaws wrote: »

bog master wrote: »

So what about contradictions?
Human beings are fallible and their recollections often contradict eachother.
The physical evidence is though is rock solid.
Three shots and two hits - neck and head fired by Oswald's weapon.

So what about contradictions?
Human beings are fallible and their recollections often contradict eachother.
The physical evidence is though is rock solid.
Three shots and two hits - neck and head fired by Oswald's weapon.

Who collects and interptets the evidence? Humans!

Happy to list plenty of contradictions from photographs, x rays, eyewitness testimonies to wounds at Parkland, Bethesda, and post autopsy. If there were a few contradictions in the evidence, I would not be on here posting. I have never put forward any particular so called conspiracy theory, I just say, it does not add up.

I must say you disappoint me with that reply, thought I had a worthy adversary, but sadly it seems not. How about we go through a bit of evidence or testimony point by point? You up for that, and maybe do some research on your own and form your own opinion rather than relying on others!

So, since humans are fallible, what evidence do you have three shots were fired?

What evidence is rock solid, from a flawed autopsy? From the chief prosector who burned the first if not second draft of the autopsy report?
Who under oath who admitted he made a 4 inch error in the entry wound of the head? Who did not realise at the conclusion of the autopsy that the neck wound was supposedely transiting? Whose sworn testimony is different in each inquiry held. John and Nellie Connolly's testimony questions the Magic Bullet Theory. Secret Service Agents question the location of the wound from photos and pics, Dallas Dr.'s dont agree with autopsy photos., those who took photos and xrays testify some are missing, and some they saw were not taken by them.

Name any part of this saga from when the plane landed with Kennedy's body in Washington and I can provide alternative testimony to the so called official record.And yes, some in this on both sides are making a good living out of it, but tends not to be witnesses. And yes, memories and recollections do fade with time. But read Finck's testimony in his ARRB testimony compared to Custer or Reed. One would think Finck never attended the autopsy with his i dont remember, dont recall.

Come on dude, lets get it on!


All the best

chainsaws

bog master wrote: »

Who collects and interptets the evidence? Humans!

Happy to list plenty of contradictions from photographs, x rays, eyewitness testimonies to wounds at Parkland, Bethesda, and post autopsy. If there were a few contradictions in the evidence, I would not be on here posting. I have never put forward any particular so called conspiracy theory, I just say, it does not add up.

I must say you disappoint me with that reply, thought I had a worthy adversary, but sadly it seems not. How about we go through a bit of evidence or testimony point by point? You up for that, and maybe do some research on your own and form your own opinion rather than relying on others!

So, since humans are fallible, what evidence do you have three shots were fired?

What evidence is rock solid, from a flawed autopsy? From the chief prosector who burned the first if not second draft of the autopsy report?
Who under oath who admitted he made a 4 inch error in the entry wound of the head? Who did not realise at the conclusion of the autopsy that the neck wound was supposedely transiting? Whose sworn testimony is different in each inquiry held. John and Nellie Connolly's testimony questions the Magic Bullet Theory. Secret Service Agents question the location of the wound from photos and pics, Dallas Dr.'s dont agree with autopsy photos., those who took photos and xrays testify some are missing, and some they saw were not taken by them.

Name any part of this saga from when the plane landed with Kennedy's body in Washington and I can provide alternative testimony to the so called official record.And yes, some in this on both sides are making a good living out of it, but tends not to be witnesses. And yes, memories and recollections do fade with time. But read Finck's testimony in his ARRB testimony compared to Custer or Reed. One would think Finck never attended the autopsy with his i dont remember, dont recall.

Come on dude, lets get it on!


All the best

We've already gone over this.

I have shown you photographic evidence that shows that two bullets struck JFK in the back of the neck and the back of the head - the autopsy photos clearly show two bullet entry wounds exactly where the Warren Commission said there were.

I have already shown you video of a scientific experiment which proves that the magic bullet was not only possible but the only way JFK and Connally could have been wounded during the assassination.

I have already shown you a video of a scientific experiment which proves that Kennedy's fatal head wounds could only have been created by a shot fire from above and behind from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

The autopsy photos, x-rays, autopsy report and pathologist testimony prove that Kennedy was hit twice from above and behind.

The CE399 bullet found in Connally's stretcher at Parkland hospital and the bullet fragments found on the front seat of the limousine were ballistically matched to Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38 rifle.

I have already shown you a video of a scientific experiment proving three accurate shots could be fired with the weapon in less than 5.6 secs at a 11mph target moving in the direction of the limousine as it did in Dealey Plaza.

You are trying to second guess iron-clad physical and scientific evidence.

You should just save yourself the trouble and admit that Oswald was guilty.

There were no other shooters, there were no other shots, there was no conspiracy because there is no evidence that there was.

fergus o brien

"I defy anyone to read the Warren Report and still have any reasonable doubts about Oswald's guilt.

1. Oswald’s rifle was found near the "sniper's nest" in the Book Depository building, and a bullet involved in the shooting had markings proving it was fired from that rifle.

2. Oswald was present on the sixth floor around the time of the shooting, and was even spotted in the window.

3. Medical evidence showed that all bullets striking the motorcade came from behind.

4. Oswald’s flight from the crime scene indicates involvement, and his murder of Dallas Police officer Tippit proves his capacity for violence.

5. Since no one could have known that the motorcade would pass by the Book Depository building when Oswald got his job there in October 1963, no conspiracy could have placed him there.

6. Oswald was a sociopathic loner and malcontent, and thus had no associates who would have aided him in the crime.

7. Jack Ruby did not "rub out" Oswald. The timing of his entry to the police basement was pure luck and could not have been planned, since Oswald was supposed to have been moved earlier. And it makes no sense to silence Oswald--then someone would have to silence Ruby."

i know this an older post and the person who posted it appears to have been banned but i thought i would like to address a few things mentioned.


"2. Oswald was present on the sixth floor around the time of the shooting, and was even spotted in the window."

thats rubbish not one witness ever saw oswald on the sixth floor at about 11.50 am ,the man whom i belive you think saw oswald was howard brennan who simply said he saw a slim white male .

"3. Medical evidence showed that all bullets striking the motorcade came from behind."

i have no doubt that shots came from behind ,the shallow back wound and the shot that struck connally in the back and exited his chest but medical evidence in the warren commission also clearly states connallys wrist wound was not caused by the pristine bullet which means atlaest a fourth shot.


"4. Oswald’s flight from the crime scene indicates involvement, and his murder of Dallas Police officer Tippit proves his capacity for violence."

oswald did leave his place of work this is true ,but there is much evidence suggesting oswald did not shoot tippit .

in a post below the same member posted 5 links all from the same site mcadams and in two posts after that videos all by dale myers ,these 2 people are claerly doing their work well.