Busking in Dublin - Crack Down on Amps?

elhombre

Hola,

Just wondering has anyone heard about these new by-laws that were supposedly passed a few weeks ago (on the 3rd June) regarding the use of amplification when busking?

For anyone who has busked using amps you're probably aware that using amps was always illegal. We've been busking with amps for about 18 months now, but the Gardai always turned a blind eye to it unless a complaint was made by one of the shops. Even then the Gardai were usually pretty cool if you offered to turn down - and most often we'd get a thumbs up from them!

However the last time we went out (bout 3 weeks ago) we got shut down after 2 songs, and the garda told us that some new laws had just been passed the day before which is aimed at cracking down on buskers using amps on pedestrian streets - Grafton Street and Temple Bar being the 2 main places where buskers would be obviously. Basically was going to be a zero tolerance regardless of shop complaints.

We've been busy with other things so haven't been out busking since, but one of the lads in our band was in town over the weekend and said he didnt notice any bands using amps - so is this law now in full affect????

Its such a shame if it is, because although i can understand that shops get annoyed by loud music all the time - it's the buskers that make Grafton Street what it is - named Dublin's favourite street recently.

Anyone any inside scoops / thoughts on this?

Vomit

What a f**king stupid crackdown that would be. There are many great performers who rely on amps. Some of my favourite Grafton Street guitarists will either have to switch to acoustic or leave completely. I mean WTF harm are they doing to anyone?

gar-hats

Story dude?!

Yea mate, it's over! The've been shutting down everyone, even Rebecca the opera singer with the tiny amp!! It was good while it lasted! We went out saturday last and were stopped before we even set up, some dude that hangs up paintings was threatened to be arrested if he didn't move along!! The only buskers being left alone are the one's playing wonderwall on acoustic guitars!! poxy shops, they don't realise people go to grafton st and temple bar to check out free entertainment!

Anyway! All the best!

Gar- T.R.M

elhombre

Vomit wrote: »

What a f**king stupid crackdown that would be. There are many great performers who rely on amps. Some of my favourite Grafton Street guitarists will either have to switch to acoustic or leave completely. I mean WTF harm are they doing to anyone?

yeah i hear ya, the and i play in won't be able to busk anymore if it's the case as you simply wont hear us properly.

Basically the shops were on to the council saying that they pay high rents and get head wrecked by loud buskers. Which is fair enough, but surely there can be a compromise - like in london you have to audition to get a pitch, and as far as i know the pitches are time sensitive so you cant use the same place all the time etc

Vomit

As one last 'FU' to the council, I think one of them should mic up their amp and blast it down Grafton Street through a PA. Can't stop the rock!!

Zombienosh

sometimes those fellas outside M&S annoy me, but only cos the crowd gets so big

elhombre

gar-hats wrote: »

Story dude?!

Yea mate, it's over! The've been shutting down everyone, even Rebecca the opera singer with the tiny amp!! It was good while it lasted! We went out saturday last and were stopped before we even set up, some dude that hangs up paintings was threatened to be arrested if he didn't move along!! The only buskers being left alone are the one's playing wonderwall on acoustic guitars!! poxy shops, they don't realise people go to grafton st and temple bar to check out free entertainment!

Anyway! All the best!

Gar- T.R.M

hey Gar - thats a sh*t one!!

......well we're f**ked for funding EHJ now!

As you say people came to those places to enjoy some free music. we even would have people asking us through facebook etc when we're busking and they'd come in especially. i'm sure you lads got to recognise regular faces as well...and everyone seemed to enjoy some cool tunes on a Sat avo....

Maybe Jooooooe Duffy will champion the cause!

raindog.promo

Surely some thought could have gone into this rather than just a blanket ban.

The London idea of people auditioning for a licence and perhaps a designated open area for more "experimental" musicians to ply their trade would be good.

Also, there's the area around Temple Bar that in general has quality musicians playing there.

Boo-urns.

Arpa

Sorry, who proposed these laws and how come nobody hears about it till they've already been passed? This is ridiculous. Busking is part of Dublin culture. Temple bar is Dublins cultural quarter, they can't expect it to remain as such if they take away the musicians and peformers. As a time to time busker myself, I understand that many acts just can't do with an acoustic guitar. An amp is needed sometimes to perform a certain style of music.
If anything they should be happy that buskers are there. They draw in the crowds to the shopping district, keep people in the area, so they spend more money in food outlets in the area, and keep the junkies mellowed out with a bit of comfortably numb.
As for the London system, I think it has its ups and downs. Street performance should not be regulated, it goes against its nature. People claim that it is a fair system and ensures a certain standard of musical ability, but everybody starts somewhere. I was terrible when I begun, but I built my confidence performing on the streets, ok probably wasn't great for the people listening at first, but it's this experience that makes you develop the performance side of your talent. I wouldn't have had that opportunity under the London system. Also, when you need €40 for a night out, what better way to earn it than doing something you love and that pleases others. Is there any way we can protest these laws?

raindog.promo

Get in touch with a TD. I'll try and dig up some info. Does anyone have a link to an article that reports this new law? or the name of the law even?

Effects

So what's the deal with busking and street performance on Grafton St. Do you need a permit or licence or is it just first come first served? I figure there is some code of practise so you can't just use a space that a regular uses?

IVRZ

Ive busked off and on over the past 22 years in dublin, grafton, henry st, temple bar. In that time ive seen all sorts of fashions with the police depending on the time of year, what's going on in terms of public events or occasions, what dignitaries are in town, who the superintendent in the station happens to be, etc.
Its like everything else in ireland, there's no policy with vision, just spur of the moment decisions which will see us through until the next difficulty.
The cops on the street have always been very good and sensible in that time and helpful, but they're just following orders and what else can they say but "its the law".
Ive heard of about a million of these so called laws.

Once when we were busking, a big band, saturday, standing to make about 100 quid each for the day in middle abbey street, early 90s, a new coper told us we couldnt play that day. We knew this was because there was a big match replay on and someone had been stabbed at the last one. We said ok deciding to pack it in till next week. But then he said "and you cant play here any other day either or ill have to arrest ye". Well that was it, we asked him to arrest us. He called for a van from the station but only a car came. Couldn't fit 9 musicians with guitars, banjos, double bass, etc, into the car, so we offered to walk down to store street. As we walked down the cop lagged slowly behind and we had to wait for him. Got to the station and he went in to report. We could hear his boss shouting at him "im facing a possible riot or a murderhere today and your bringing me in f....ing musicianns!!!!"....
Well he came out with the sweat running off him and wrote down our names. We said we're off out to play so. He pleaded with us to please leave it for a few hours before going out again. I suppose it would have ruined his street cred if we reappeared right away. The whole street knew us and had watched the whole thing.
Ive had many experiennces like that. In fact once a banjo player i used to busk with went all the way to court and the case was thrown out.
Youll find the pitch changes all the time, one day you can, the next you cant, then you can again.
The word comes down from above, from people who dont know or care. "Clear Henry street today" and the cops have to do it, just doing their job. Be nice to them.

And just to add. The reason ive busked less in the past few years is not because of the cops and laws but because of a dissapearance of the old etiquette between buskers. It used to be understood that you didnt set up too close to somebody else, go into competition with them, and drown them out. This started happening to me so often that i just packed it in.

elhombre

Effects wrote: »

So what's the deal with busking and street performance on Grafton St. Do you need a permit or licence or is it just first come first served? I figure there is some code of practise so you can't just use a space that a regular uses?

eh...........did you take time to actually read the posts here before replying with the above?

Y'know what? I'm happy to see this law being brought in*. Some acts on Grafton St were really taking the pi$$ with volume levels. Also I *HATE* whispery singers. Y'know the ones that didn't busk before mics came into play. Ask Glen Hansard, how much busking improved his voice as he had to train it to be heard on the street. Busking should not be mic'd up in my opinion.


*Addendum: Yes there were some amazing guys that were using electric guitars that obviously can't do it anymore. And blanket bans are always retarded. A volume limit would have been much more reasonable.

Effects

elhombre wrote: »

eh...........did you take time to actually read the posts here before replying with the above?

Yes, I did. I don't think you read them yourself though, or maybe you didn't read my post. I was asking if you needed a permit or licence. Most of the posts are in regards to a crack down on amps being used. :rolleyes:

elhombre

Effects wrote: »

Yes, I did. I don't think you read them yourself though, or maybe you didn't read my post. I was asking if you needed a permit or licence. Most of the posts are in regards to a crack down on amps being used. :rolleyes:

sorry dude, but this thread is talking about busking WITH amps. You never specified that you were talking about busking without amps.

so to answer your questions on busking - technically you legally do need a licence, but its an old law that is overlooked by the Gardai. It's never enforced so its not something you need to worry about.

There are no fixed pitches - first come first served, and no regular buskers can demand a spot. However, most buskers are more than happy to share their pitch if another busker asks - we did this quite a bit and everythings cool if everyone's cool.

I don't know what kind of instrument you play - but busking in Dublin without amps is very difficult for most instruments. The street noise just drowns you out, nobody can hear what you're playing so they don't stop - and you make no money.

revz

My friends and I busked last year with amps, and most of the time got moved on by gards when in Grafton street but not in Temple Bar. Was looking forward to some this year!
We ended up plying most of our trade on Henry Street (with amps) and weren't ever moved on for noise anyway, anyone tried it this year?

Effects

I'm just interesting in a once off street performance, not music. That's why I was asking about the need for a licence. I just didn't want to start a new thread on it. Thanks for the info elhombre.

hob150

This is insane, I see the shops point of view, but a blanket ban is pretty unreasonable. I've been moved on by people in shops for being too loud, but its not like me, or any other buskers would give the shops hassle for asking us to move! we should really get a group together on facebook or just have an online petition to have the ban removed or at least changed!


It worked pretty well with the college fees thing, all the college reps went ringing their tds every few days until the issue was dropped, wouldn't be hard to get buskers and any music lovers to do the same!

ortadox

:cool: yeah , hi yeah, i used to busk most sunday,s outside captain america,s on grafton street,with my tiny amp and just myself,A couple of week,s ago i was moved on by a bann garda,who said, there has been a bylaw passed.[quote.no more amps on grafton street,]quote, she said i can busk without the amp or head on down to temple bar or henry street,which i did.what a sad day i said as leaving, no more jobs, no more future, no more fun.probably have to tie myself to the railings of the dail soon enough anyway,some of us depend on the few honest bob we make.shame on this arsehole who passed this law.you,ll be hearing more from me in the near future.by the way, i think all off us buskers should get together and should hold a protest lets put it to a vote ,and let the people decide.[DO YOU WANT TO HEAR THE MUSIC IN THE CITY OF CULTURE OR NOT]anymore on this please reply,cause im taking it furter anyway.and notin against the bann garda,she was as ambarassed as i was.

elhombre wrote: »

Hola,

Just wondering has anyone heard about these new by-laws that were supposedly passed a few weeks ago (on the 3rd June) regarding the use of amplification when busking?

For anyone who has busked using amps you're probably aware that using amps was always illegal. We've been busking with amps for about 18 months now, but the Gardai always turned a blind eye to it unless a complaint was made by one of the shops. Even then the Gardai were usually pretty cool if you offered to turn down - and most often we'd get a thumbs up from them!

However the last time we went out (bout 3 weeks ago) we got shut down after 2 songs, and the garda told us that some new laws had just been passed the day before which is aimed at cracking down on buskers using amps on pedestrian streets - Grafton Street and Temple Bar being the 2 main places where buskers would be obviously. Basically was going to be a zero tolerance regardless of shop complaints.

We've been busy with other things so haven't been out busking since, but one of the lads in our band was in town over the weekend and said he didnt notice any bands using amps - so is this law now in full affect????

Its such a shame if it is, because although i can understand that shops get annoyed by loud music all the time - it's the buskers that make Grafton Street what it is - named Dublin's favourite street recently.

Anyone any inside scoops / thoughts on this?

roast

Sounds like one of the most retarded laws ever.

I've seen some of the most amazing music and musicians of my life busking on streets.
Who would have thought that entertainment is now a crime....what a shame.

hob150

hob150 wrote: »

we should really get a group together on facebook or just have an online petition to have the ban removed or at least changed!

roast wrote: »

Who would have thought that entertainment is now a crime....what a shame.

Really? THIS will get you marching on the street? Ringing TD's? Why don't you take a look around your cosseted little world and open your eyes if you want to find something worthy to be disgusted!
Entertainment isn't a crime. Taking the pi$$ with volume levels is. And who's fault is that? If the singer songerwriter busker type hadn't taken the absolute pi$$ out of blasting everyone out of it, this law would never have been put in place. You wouldn't have had a mic, let alone an amp 10 years ago, yet I seem to remember people busking then.

ortadox wrote: »

probably have to tie myself to the railings of the dail soon enough anyway,some of us depend on the few honest bob we make.shame on this arsehole who passed this law.you,ll be hearing more from me in the near future.by the way, i think all off us buskers should get together and should hold a protest lets put it to a vote ,and let the people decide.[DO YOU WANT TO HEAR THE MUSIC IN THE CITY OF CULTURE OR NOT]anymore on this please reply,cause im taking it furter anyway.and notin against the bann garda,she was as ambarassed as i was.

And you pay tax on this few honest bob? And you declare your income to the social welfare too? (assuming your unemployed, most buskers I know are)

There's a few people on high horses that put themselves up there in the first place. Get over it. It's your own collective fault.

Guitareaxe

Papa Smut wrote: »

Really? THIS will get you marching on the street? Ringing TD's? Why don't you take a look around your cosseted little world and open your eyes if you want to find something worthy to be disgusted!
Entertainment isn't a crime. Taking the pi$$ with volume levels is. And who's fault is that? If the singer songerwriter busker type hadn't taken the absolute pi$$ out of blasting everyone out of it, this law would never have been put in place. You wouldn't have had a mic, let alone an amp 10 years ago, yet I seem to remember people busking then.



And you pay tax on this few honest bob? And you declare your income to the social welfare too? (assuming your unemployed, most buskers I know are)

There's a few people on high horses that put themselves up there in the first place. Get over it. It's your own collective fault.

This post isn't necessarily aimed at the above quoted poster, but as a general response to those who agree with this ban.

Music is part of our culture, we are the only nation on Earth ever to have a musical instrument as our official national symbol. Pick up any tourist information book, any book on Ireland's city's, or check out the Wikipedia on Dublin, Busking is mentioned, In fact its celebrated.

Some buskers do take the P*** but they should be individually reprimanded and their OTT playing should not effect the livelihoods of the many who play quality music at a perfectly reasonable level.

Amps have been around for decades now so don't know where your going with the comment about not having amps/mics 10 years ago. Amps have been around longer then electric guitars have been around for instance.

I play electric guitar, Its what I do, I do pay taxes, I occasionally busk and include this as tips in my tax returns each year (self employed).

Its my constitutional right to earn a living.
Its my constitutional right to express myself freely

I need an amp in order to play electric guitar, I play at the same volume as acoustic instruments, so there is no difference in levels between me and an acoustic player. Unless its an OTT acoustic player who is louder then me.

the other day I was on Grafton street and got moved on, just up the street there was a classical group playing, no amp but they did have a CD player to play along with for timing.THEY WERE INCREDIBLY LOUD, you could hear them from anywhere on Grafton street. I was not loud, The only difference is I had an amp, they were acoustic.

You could hear me in a 20 foot radius, and unless you stood in front of me to listen (and many many did) it was only faint.

I pointed out to the Garda officer that The classical band were the loudest thing around, He agreed but said unfortunately they didn't have amps so technically they weren't breaking the law.
He pointed out that this was because of Brown Thomas and some of the jewelery shops regular complaints.

I asked if anyone had complained about me and he said "not at all, I think your brilliant, but you have an amp, even if your keeping it low".
He said He thought it was a shame as he loves electric guitar but its his orders to keep the amps off Grafton street and he had to move me on.

So, people who don't understand that an amp can be used at reasonable volumes, equivalent to acoustic volumes, should think more before they make sweeping judgements.

They should be aware that Using a resonator guitar, large classical instruments and brass/wind instruments is usually alot louder then a soloist using an amp.


I don't play acoustic on the street as I play virtuoso soloing over live loops. An electric guitar with a tremelo bar and an acoustic guitar are two different instruments. I play the former.

If a pub can blast out music onto the streets, If a classical group can cover an entire street with music, If preachers can stand on soap boxes with mics causing a disturbance music never will, If drunk people can scream shout and sing at the top of their voices on the streets at night, then I can use my tiny amp to play electric guitar solo's using an amp at the same volume as a strummed acoustic guitar .

In all my busking experiences I have had nothing but compliments and admiration from people, thanking me for the free entertainment. I've had shopkeepers/owners asking me to play outside their establishment, I've had gardai watch me and compliment me, even get photographs with me.
I've not made a fortune and everything I did make I declared as tips. I am a musician by trade, I have musical qualifications, I work in a legitimate and recognized industry (entertainment/arts/music). if I am playing somewhere the chuggers and panhandlers clear out of the area, I do the streets good and I do Irelands tourist industry a favour.

Should I be criminalized?

There is no collective of buskers and artists, we should be treated individually , if someone causes a disturbance to the peace whether they are busking or not, they should be dealt with according to the law. Otherwise, if a person is operating within their rights, then they are free to do so unhindered, no matter what anyone says, as this is a democratic and free republic. The Public streets don't belong to the shops , the gardai, or the government, they belong to the Irish citizens who pay for them, their upkeep and maintenance through taxes.

Jimmy Bottlehead

I'd agree with the above poster; it shouldn't be a blanket ban on amps. Individual buskers should be assessed seperately by Gardai, and if deemed to be causing noise pollution, should be moved on.

This is slightly too close to a nanny state for my liking. I like maybe 1 out of every five buskers I hear, most don't interest me, but they all have the right to play music, provided it is at acceptable volume and doesn't break any laws.

raindog.promo

What are the pro's and cons to the law.
I can see points for each.

Papa Smut made some good points re having to develop your style to compensate for not having amplification (which can only stand to you and help in your development) and I can see the points made in Guitaraxes post too.

Personally, I do not like seeing the people of this island being turned into a purely consumer culture at the beck and call of those who provide consumables . If jewellery shops don't like having buskers outside their shop then piss off to another area.

The ban (as far as I'm aware) is only on Grafton Street, so that may allow other performers of instruments lesser in volume to display their talent in an enviroment where they would usually be drowned out.

If you do feel that strong about it, by all means, take it to your TD and see how far you get politically. And by that, I mean properly political, lobby TD's and find out who else you have to get in touch with. Look for lobby groups to support you. Please don't be chaining yourself to the gates of the Dail. It may get some exposure but I would imagine you'll come off looking the fool and exposure will be negative.

I tried looking into it (not incredibly hard I must admit) and got nowhere. Has anyone who has been moved on asked for the name of the law being enforced or where they could look it up? Maybe emailing the garda station that deals with Grafton St and asking will get you the information.

If you feel strongly about this you can do something that may get results. Or you can bitch and moan about it which will change nothing.

Pat D. Almighty

Papa Smut wrote: »

Busking should not be mic'd up in my opinion.

agreed. If it's just one bloke with a an acoustic, then they shouldn't use a mic. I was busking in temple bar a while back, and some bloke set up less than 10 meters from me, with a weird looking guitar-type instrument mic'd up, walked over to me, gave me five euro and said 'here's five bucks, im gona set up here and i use an amp'. Pretty much bought me out. If I wasnt desperate, I wouldn't have taken it.
The 'respect' buskers had for each other is long gone.

aaron1lee

It's a real drag, that the enforcement of amps has been put in place. I dont have an amp yet and i was considering singing italian opera,acapella, until i get one. I don't yet know how opera will go down yet, but the voice i have is a lyric tenor. I have a big voice, so i should be able to get myself heard, and i hope there is a market for this music. I was hoping to sing to opera backing tracks, when i have the amp, but that seems in doubt now. some operatic arias work without the accompniament of music, but there are a lot also that won't, so i'm hoping the rug has not left my feet before i start.

Does anyone know how opera goes down on the Dublin streets? as i dont know anyone else who has done it. Thanks for any reply recieved.

lhdrummer

bad news are coming this week about our old busking...

...good times...

Fandango

Vomit wrote: »

As one last 'FU' to the council, I think one of them should mic up their amp and blast it down Grafton Street through a PA. Can't stop the rock!!

Dont know if anyone else suggested it but how about 100 or so people get together with acoustic guitars and play. Let them see if a small amp or 100 unamplified guitars are louder and then suggest they pull the new law

ride-the-spiral

Damnit, I really liked that guy who plays hard rock/metal stuff with the electric and loop pedal, and was thinking of taking the old looper out myself.

Looks like I'm gonna have to resort to acoustic songs if I want to busk at all now.

Sam Fehily

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdKGeSl9Pcg

thebrackster

this is real sad.
i used to busk all the time playing an electric guitar with effects and all that jazz playing country and rock with all sorts in between and it always worked out great because i had a wee roland micro cube to pump it out. In the past before amps i remember watching guitarists struggle to be heard on the street and mnake no money whatsoever in comparison to other louder accoustic outfits such as string quartets and those woeful singers outside of hmv. the amps gave us a platform and even footing with the rest of the acts.


i find it hard to understand the shops reasons for putting forward this law, they all have music blaring inside them anyway and most of the shops have doors that close over which provides a further sound barrier.

what i have noticed is that in the 5 or so years since the microcube line from roland came out these have been appearing everywhere with some performers using 2 at a time. the pignose used to be the only one available and it wasnt super loud at all, as more an more battery powered technology is appearing such as the micro cube with 2 and 4 speakers in them ive seen buskers make full use of the added volume in an attempt to drown out competition and make their sound travel further and attract listeners, in fact it was getting to the stage where it was strange if you didnt have an amp to start off with.

anyway its definitely complete bull**** that they actually were allowed bring through such a deliberate and concise square ass law attacking street performers considering many of these shops play music directly onto the street themselves.

drumdrum

Agree the shops do seem a bit heavy handed in their approach alright.

That video on the Cork busking is a good watch anyways, thanks for that Sam Fehily.

I think the shops point of view is that if there is a terrible busker outside their shop, or a style of busker that doesn't appeal to their "clientele", then people will avoid the area around the busker and therefore the shop itself. I admit that there is a point to be made here, but getting legislation to restrict it is a bit harsh.
And for electric guitar performers, because of the nature of the instrument, you NEED an amp to get sound. You can still see buskers using amps on grafton street today and personally I've never once thought that they were too loud. The buskers were fair about it and set the amp to a fair level for all concerned.

Sure the buskers add to the atmosphere of the place and they are great for tourist purposes, especially in the summer months.

Sam Fehily

Oh sure, no problem..