Gay Byrne - Road Safety

I.S.T.

The following letter from Gay Byrne appeared in the Independent today:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/gay-byrne-still-too-many-dying-on-our-roads-2230844.html

This quote in particular caught my attention:

The last two years alone have been the safest since records began in 1959....I put this achievement down to a willingness by road users to embrace a new culture of road safety. Well done and thank you. This is your success.

It just shows you what can be achieved when we all take responsibility, make small changes in our road behaviour, and when this is backed up by education, engineering and robust enforcement at the roadside and in the courts.

It appears to me that the RSA continuously downplay the impact the new motorway network has had on reducing crash rates. I find it difficult to believe that the Irish attitude to driving has changed overnight and we have all become safer drivers. This certainly warrents some further investigation which I intend to look into but I was interested in your opinions on what has contributed to our roads becoming so safe in the past two years.

EDIT:
Of course he is using the opportunity to promote the introduction of speed cameras...

We know what must be done. The remaining measures contained in the Government's Road Safety Strategy must be implemented in full.

This means rolling out the network of safety cameras to tackle our chronic speed culture. If you don't believe me when I say we have a lust for speed, then visit any A&E in this country and ask the paramedics, nurses and doctors in emergency medicine. Every week, they see lives torn apart and families shattered in a heartbeat.

AlekSmart

I would share your scepticism I.S.T.

I would also agree that the RSA have a somewhat different perspective of the Motorway element and also the fact that the past two-years also parallells the most rapid collapse of economic activity the State has ever witnessed.

The volumes of traffic are considerably reduced on the boom-times,with even the much vaunted Dublin Grid-Lock not really amounting to a hill o beans any more.

And it`s reassuring to see the bould Gay fully on board with the terminology also...."Safety" Cameras as opposed to lodgement-only ATM`s.... :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

This means rolling out the network of safety cameras to tackle our chronic speed culture.

rolling out safety spikes that automatically puncture your tryes when you speed would work an awful lot better

Cookie_Monster

Gay Byrne can go and **** right off.


there is no chronic speeding in this country and compared to anywhere else I've been to we are quite relaxed. Other driving bad habits and general incompedance is very high here but our "chronic speed culture" is non existant IMO.

Absurdum

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

EDIT:
Of course he is using the opportunity to promote the introduction of speed cameras...

of course, the new ones on the M50 will be particulary lucrative, how could he acknowledge the safety of motorways when they're about to put speed cameras on the busiest one :P

Absurdum

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Gay Byrne can go and **** right off.


there is no chronic speeding in this country and compared to anywhere else I've been to we are quite relaxed. Other driving bad habits and general incompedance is very high here but our "chronic speed culture" is non existant IMO.

Agree 100%.

I wouldn't even bother listing the bad habits and incompetence because driver education in this country is a joke and is the real problem.

GTE

Im getting so fed up of the RSA. So much so Im finding it hard to even complain about them at this stage.

I think we should see if we can get some kind of response from Gay Byrne about this thread that contains no obvious or hidden statistics.

The sooner Gay Byrne gets out of the job the better. I always feel like Im being talked down to when he does things like this.

Capt'n Midnight

How do the death rates relate to excise on fuel or other measures of road usage / mileage ?

DWCommuter

Recession has reduced the number of road deaths. Less traffic. Less money to get off your bin on drugs and booze and then drive. There's also higher unemployment which in turn leads to less youngsters forking out for suped up pieces of ****e. Road deaths in the 1970s were staggeringly high, but that was due to the very high level of tolerance towards drink driving, combined with an almost zero enforcement of road traffic laws.

While motorways are safer roads and some people like myself, take less risks, I have serious doubts about Gay Byrnes rather simple assumptions. Economically, the country has gone from Formula one to Formula Ford and that in itself, automatically brings huge change to the entire spectrum of road traffic accidents.

Victor

Motorways can't have been all of the solution. Only about 40% of road deaths are on the national route network. Motorways only account for a fraction of the national route network. Building the motorways only saved some lives.

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Of course he is using the opportunity to promote the introduction of speed cameras...

I'm sure you'll be making money from it.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

Motorways can't have been all of the solution. Only about 40% of road deaths are on the national route network. Motorways only account for a fraction of the national route network. Building the motorways only saved some lives.

The motorway network also removes people from non Motorway routes, as the Motorway route even though longer is quicker.
Have you data which show the relative amounts of traffic on non motorway to motorway routes?

The three months after penalty points for non-seatbelt wearing came in, deaths rose. I didn't see anyone in govt linking these two points, yet whenever deaths fall, a link is always made.

ICE HOUSE

I wonder if every motorist just handed over €100 a year to the RSA would they F**K off, after all its all just about money nothing else the whole lot of it.

SeanW

In 1990 we had no Motorway worth talking about. Parts of the M50 (perphaps with N50 sections?) maybe a few miles of Motorway along the M7 around Naas, Limerick-Annacotty etc.

You say "only 40%" like thats a trivial figure - its not, that's nearly half. The National road network is considered primary and secondary for a specific reason - it carries the most traffic including long distance and long distance regional. The Motorways programme in turn has converted the most travelled sections to M.

The effect of this should not be understated, though as you have shown this is easy to do.

I would put the reductions in road fatalities down to a number of key factors.

1. Zero tolerance of drink driving. In many places, rural in particular, driving home from the pub was the done thing.
2. Motorways and other N road improvements.
3. The recession.

I'm sure you'll be making money from it.

And what's wrong with that? In any case it's not as much as the gov is going to be making putting speed cameras everywhere, including the places where accidents don't tend to happen.

Amtmann

Carawaystick wrote: »

The motorway network also removes people from non Motorway routes, as the Motorway route even though longer is quicker.

That's true. Today I went from Cahir to Gorey via the N24, N25, N30 and N11. It took 2.5 hours. Coming home I took the M11, M50, M7, M8. Counter-intuitively, it was the quicker route though longer, and it took me off four single-carriageway N-roads (bar the N11 gap).

KevR

Victor wrote: »

Motorways can't have been all of the solution. Only about 40% of road deaths are on the national route network. Motorways only account for a fraction of the national route network. Building the motorways only saved some lives.

Some of the old N roads would have been congested to the point where people were doing rat-runs on death trap R or L roads. When a motorway opens, it frees up loads of capacity on the old N road (now an R road, often with a lower limit) which eliminates the need for rat-runs.

Davidth88

Motorways are clearly the safest form of roads , you have separated flows of traffic.

I have to agree with Cookie_monster , I have not really seen a ' chronic speeding culture ' in this country.

What I do see is people ' ignoring ' what I would class as ill thought out/ill explained speed limits

I commute via the N4 Lucan bypass. If you were to stick to the 80kph limit you would be a rolling road block, and actually causing problems ( as I often see a person hogging the middle lane sticking to the limit like glue , no doubt tutting at us all ). But to be honest , virtually no one is breaking 100kph. I don't feel 100kph is excessive on that stretch of road ( not if you consider 100kph is also the limit on the vast majority of the single lane N roads ).

But I will lay money ( maybe Paddy Power will take it ) that the first cameras will be positioned on this ' dangerous ' of road.

Gay needs to change the record , look at dangerous overtaking , look at using the phone while driving , look at poor car maintenance and things like that.

Don't stop policing roads, and stop people speeding by all means but pick the right places , and adjust limits that seem obviously wrong ( to me with 20 years accident free driving experience ).

People will just lose any respect for the law if the law makes an ass of itself.

Victor

ICE HOUSE wrote: »

I wonder if every motorist just handed over €100 a year to the RSA would they F**K off, after all its all just about money nothing else the whole lot of it.

You mean you would for for a licence to speed?

doolox

The Lucan Bypass is just a Revenue Road.
At this stage I have to do 80,60 kph as the case may be as I have been caught doing 100 kph before, cost me €80 and 2 points which have now gone off my licence. I cannot afford to be caught again. The Local cops are revenue hungry and in no way enhance local public relations, never around when alarms, both house and car are blaring out at 2 in the morning but ready to pounce on tax-paying commuters in the morning, lunchtime or evening rush hours to extract more cash from the hapless people of West Dublin.

They are very selective in their enforcement, while jeeps and bikes scour the bypass looking for "dangerous" speeders the backroads by strawberry beds etc are left untouched, perhaps too dangerous for the cops to patrol?
Yet I have witnessed high speed stuff on these roads far more dangerous than on the bypass.

Also watch the Belgard rd, M50 south of the toll bridge, 100kph in sections, Athlone bypass, 100 kph in sections and the Adamstown approach road, a barrier divided two-lane raod with Bus lanes in both directions for the 20 busses a day that use it and a 50 kph limit...pure nonsense.

Also note the grudgingly small left turn lanes into the Bus lanes on the Newcastle Road, Most drivers cut into the Bus Lanes early cutting off the compliant drivers who leave entering the left lane until the correct, legal time. These left lanes should be longer. I now use my mirror to observe traffic behind me and time my move into the left lane when the car behind me moves in, even if this is before the Bus Lane ends. Otherwise you get cut off and forced straight on or into waiting at the correct point to turn into the left lane in a dangerous fashion.

I also do the same when joining a major road through an acceleration lane that suddenly becomes a bus lane, I have observed drivers swerving out in front of traffic in an effort to avoid driving on the bus lanes at all costs. This is a greater evil than accelerating to match traffic speeds and joining at a safe speed and distance from other traffic. I also do the same with hard shoulders. The relative positions of cars in a line of traffic is of paramount importance and should take precedence over BUs Lane/ Hard shoulder rules which some drivers follow rigidly to the detriment of themselves and other road users.

Perhaps if the main stream traffic allowed spaces for the merging traffic things would be better but this doesn't happen often.

highlydebased

Speed limits need to be sorted in a case-by-case basis. To give an example theres a massive road near where I live with a 50kmh limit, not much of a "built up area"....there's a few houses at the side of the road.

Capt'n Midnight

Davidth88 wrote: »

But I will lay money ( maybe Paddy Power will take it ) that the first cameras will be positioned on this ' dangerous ' of road.

What about the camera on the eastbound lane opposite the Spa Hotel ?

Davidth88

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What about the camera on the eastbound lane opposite the Spa Hotel ?

That got taken out when the road was upgraded , and never put back

That used to catch so many people , down hill , just off a motorway , however was needed because you had a set of lights in those days.

Ham'nd'egger

KevR wrote: »

Some of the old N roads would have been congested to the point where people were doing rat-runs on death trap R or L roads. When a motorway opens, it frees up loads of capacity on the old N road (now an R road, often with a lower limit) which eliminates the need for rat-runs.

A significant amount of road deaths are young men and tend to happen at night so packed roads would not make any huge difference to the death level.

I.S.T.

Victor wrote: »

Motorways can't have been all of the solution. Only about 40% of road deaths are on the national route network. Motorways only account for a fraction of the national route network. Building the motorways only saved some lives.

Do you think Gay Byrne is downplaying the effect Motorways have had on reducing road deaths? Do you really think it is mostly down to a change in attitude as he suggests?

Victor wrote: »

I'm sure you'll be making money from it.

Ouch!

Absurdum

Hamndegger wrote: »

A significant amount of road deaths are young men and tend to happen at night so packed roads would not make any huge difference to the death level.

I believe that some of them are also suicides - yet we only pay lip service to prevention of that. I guess there's more profit in speed prevention

SeanW

Davidth88 wrote: »

That got taken out when the road was upgraded , and never put back

That used to catch so many people , down hill , just off a motorway , however was needed because you had a set of lights in those days.

I've been on that section of the N4 a few times, and it seems the equipment is still there, the pole, arm and some class of equipment on the arm. On the Dublin bound carriageway.

It was gone IIRC during the N4s upgrade to Grade Separated DC but is back.

So, is it that it's just that it's inactive?

Davidth88

SeanW wrote: »

I've been on that section of the N4 a few times, and it seems the equipment is still there, the pole, arm and some class of equipment on the arm. On the Dublin bound carriageway.

It was gone IIRC during the N4s upgrade to Grade Separated DC but is back.

So, is it that it's just that it's inactive?

no, its that it's gone ( 10000% sure ) I drive that road 2 times a day , it's not there any more . But I reckon as soon as the private ones come in , there will be a replacement for sure.

alias no.9

Davidth88 wrote: »

That got taken out when the road was upgraded , and never put back

That used to catch so many people , down hill , just off a motorway , however was needed because you had a set of lights in those days.

It was a rare example of a well positioned speed camera, just off a motorway and before a long sweeping incline to a set of traffic lights. No camera is necessary there now but I expect the ANPR cameras on the gantries will become average speed cameras in time.
As regards the speed limit on this road, I'm more inclined to think that rather than bemoaning the 80kmh that it may be an appropriate candidate for a variable speed limit, 100km/h at quiet times and as low as 60 km/h for sections at busy times (maybe inbound in the morning, outbound in the evening and peak shopping periods), particularly around the Liffey Valley and M50 slip lanes. The real risk on this stretch of road is slow moving traffic crossing lanes to make exits and I think a variable speed limit could address this.

Davidth88

alias no.9 wrote: »

I'm more inclined to think that rather than bemoaning the 80kmh that it may be an appropriate candidate for a variable speed limit, 100km/h at quiet times and as low as 60 km/h for sections at busy times (maybe inbound in the morning, outbound in the evening and peak shopping periods), particularly around the Liffey Valley and M50 slip lanes. The real risk on this stretch of road is slow moving traffic crossing lanes to make exits and I think a variable speed limit could address this.

You know that's not a bad idea !

Around Liffey Valley you sometimes get queues coming onto the main carrageway.

Ok, I stand corrected , you see I mainly drive it at 06:45 and 16:00 when there is little traffic.

I.S.T.

Interesting report released today by the Road Safety Foundation in the UK and the European Road Assesment Programme in which they analyse the frequency of accidents on the different type of roads and make suggestions to improve road safety.

Surprisingly (!) they make no recommendation to install speed cameras to improve road safety, instead concentrating on engineering improvements, which they claim contribute to 70% fewer fatal and serious collisions:

Consultation with road authorities on improvements show that simple, relatively inexpensive engineering measures are paying dividends, contributing to more than 70% fewer fatal and serious collision in the last three years on the top ten roads listed. Improvements to signing and markings, resurfacing, particularly the use of high-friction anti-skid treatments, and the layout and signing of junctions are common.

It will astonish most that this report shows that significant loss of life can be stopped by measures as simple as getting road markings right on major A routes. This practical evidence reinforces the Foundation’s estimation that a third of road deaths could be prevented with high economic
payback with systematic attention to detail. Nor are these findings remarkable when looking at the policies of countries that lead in road safety. For more than a decade they have focused on the untapped potential from systematic attention to safe road design.

Saving families from the grief of sudden, violent death of a loved one is worthwhile in itself. Where money spent on road markings and safety fences is also much cheaper than the costs of emergency services, hospitals and the care of the disabled there is no sense in failing to make provision.

Read more here.

Capt'n Midnight

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Interesting report released today by the Road Safety Foundation in the UK and the European Road Assesment Programme in which they analyse the frequency of accidents on the different type of roads and make suggestions to improve road safety.

Surprisingly (!) they make no recommendation to install speed cameras to improve road safety, instead concentrating on engineering improvements, which they claim contribute to 70% fewer fatal and serious collisions:




Read more here.

Link to original report and maps - http://www.eurorap.org/news_item?search=y&ID=370

The event is sponsored by the Refined Bitumen Association, the consolidated voice of the UK bitumen supply industry, comprising the UK's five major bitumen producers (ExxonMobil, Nynas, Petroplus, Shell, Total). The RBA promotes the most effective use of bituminous materials within the construction industry, provides technical advice and information, and funds research into bituminous products.

Ham'nd'egger

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Link to original report and maps - http://www.eurorap.org/news_item?search=y&ID=370

Hmmmm, The Bitumen producers commission a report telling people to buy bitumen of all things to make roads safer. What a good idea

I.S.T.

Hamndegger wrote: »

Hmmmm, The Bitumen producers commission a report telling people to buy bitumen of all things to make roads safer. What a good idea

In fairness the group who produced the report appear to be a well respected organisation:

The European Road Assessment Programme - EuroRAP AISBL - is an international not-for profit association (Associations internationales sans but lucratif) registered in Belgium. Its members are motoring organisations, national and regional road authorities, and experts who have been elected because of the special contribution they have made to EuroRAP.

EuroRAP is a sister programme to EuroNCAP, the independent crash test programme that star rates new cars for the crash protection they provide to passengers and pedestrians. EuroNCAP demonstrates that well-designed crash protection can make family cars safer. Similarly, EuroRAP is beginning to show how roads can be made safer, so that the car and road work together to protect life.

Their partners include AA, National Roads Authority, Department for Regional Development and the Road Safety Foundation:
http://www.eurorap.org/partners

They are funded by the European Commission, FIA Foundation for the Automobile and Society and ACEA (European Automobile Manufacturers Association) (http://www.eurorap.org/fin_supporters)

Our man in Havana

I wonder how long it take until one of the private money makers is torched?

Cookie_Monster

Haddockman wrote: »

I wonder how long it take until one of the private money makers is torched?

no need for that. Cling film over the lense. They can't visibly see the difference but the flash reflect so the reg can't be read...

or expanding foam, tthe Dutch are fond of this one

... I mean don't do anything like that. It illegal and not nice...