Swim Etiquette In Triathlon

levitronix

I done my first open sea swim race on sunday at windsurfers peir around 1500m or so no wetsuits, and i couldnt believe how well the swim went everybody holds their line faster swimmers swim round you, not over you! and no body is was climbing all over my back the start.

What is the story with the mongos and i say mongos who swim all over you in triathlons ??

hunnymonster

yes it's s huge difference isn't it. 2 different sports, 2 very different ways of doing things. If you have a look at the olympic OW swimming though, you'll see a lot more "aggression" than at your average sea swim in Ireland.

levitronix

But you dont see that on the ITU circuit and thats all positioning

you wont swim any faster swimming on someones back for the first 100m

by the way im just having rant

hunnymonster

you won't swim faster but they will swim slower.... it's not right but it happens.

I think it does happen in ITU races.

hunnymonster

mind you, you're talking to the converted here. I'm the woman who got punched and had her nose broken in a triathlon swim last year.

levitronix

Funny thing was even my water poler playing friends complained haha and they swim with flying elbows if someone annoys them.

I know its part of the sport now, but last year i meet a guy from louth in austria and he was a nervous swimmer and he pulled out because he said he got pummelled during the swim and paniced big time.

levitronix

hunnymonster wrote: »

mind you, you're talking to the converted here. I'm the woman who got punched and had her nose broken in a triathlon swim last year.

ouch !!!

levitronix

I only brought this up because i just watched a video " ironman swim trainning " and the idea was to try drown the swimmers haha rather than faster bunch swimming, the coach was shouting " get him, get him "

interested

I think you're description of those swimming all over others during triathlon swims is offensive .... to mongo's

I spent a childhood swimming in the pool and also enjoyed all of the open water swims a life time ago. None of those experiences were anything like the physicality that can occur during a triathlon swim.

As hunnymonster says, they're entirely different sports. Its ironic that you can get a 2 min penalty for a number violation and probably more for drafting but throwing a punch during the swim seemingly goes completely unpunished. That said, no one is really identifiable and it is alot more difficult to police but then again, people should behave with respect to those around them I guess.

IMHO contact of some description with other swimmers around you can sometimes be inevitable at some starts and my theory is that some of those starts people are penned in to ensure good photo's for the wedding photographer on the day. However, contact means a clash of hands or arms ... and NEVER an excuse to start throwing punches ... I mean if you did any of that crap on the bike or run you'd be disqualified so.

Since the swim is often the section of triathlon that deters people from either running or biking or other sports or none at all from taking up their first event then itd be great if they didnt get clobbered in the first 25 metres.

I hope Im right in thinking that sometimes things get talked up and its never as bad as you hear.

Poncherello

If you cant handle it start at the back. You are told the same in every race you do.
Be smart start out wide, I can never understand why average swimmers allow themselves to get caught up in the middle of a big bunch start.

interested

Poncherello wrote: »

If you cant handle it start at the back. You are told the same in every race you do.
Be smart start out wide, I can never understand why average swimmers allow themselves to get caught up in the middle of a big bunch start.

fair point, race briefings do state that weaker swimmers should start to the side or wait towards the rear of the wave. Maybe they should also say, that swimming over someone or pulling them back by the leg etc is slower than keeping your own stroke and swimming around them.

wrt average swimmers: the thing about most sports is that theres always a bigger dog ... in that in some races you can be top level swimmer at the front of the wave but in others you'll find yourself getting your leg pulled.

tunney

levitronix wrote: »

I done my first open sea swim race on sunday at windsurfers peir around 1500m or so no wetsuits, and i couldnt believe how well the swim went everybody holds their line faster swimmers swim round you, not over you! and no body is was climbing all over my back the start.

What is the story with the mongos and i say mongos who swim all over you in triathlons ??

Some would argue that the mongos are the ones that position themselves incorrectly.

If you getting swum over you're positioning yourself too far forward, start with people that swim at the same level as you?

interested

tunney wrote: »

Some would argue that the mongos are the ones that position themselves incorrectly.

If you getting swum over you're positioning yourself too far forward, start with people that swim at the same level as you?

Again, fair comment. Is there any easy steps to determining the swim level of those about you at the start ?

tunney

interested wrote: »

Again, fair comment. Is there any easy steps to determining the swim level of those about you at the start ?

Experience.

The same people who position themselves incorrectly, then get hammered are the same ones who insist on getting in the fast lane and swimming at 2:00 per 100m pace when the medium and slow are there to be used.

People like to think they are fast, then they get swum over, hammered and battered.

hunnymonster

look at the swim times for previous years, figure out which percentile you're in and start that far back. Of course that depends on everyone else being in the right place.

mloc123

Easy to see I have never been at the business end of a race, worst I've had it a race is the odd slap with no intention behind it.

interested

tunney wrote: »

Experience.

Agreed. If people persistently place themselves at the front of a wave in each race and then fret about getting swum over regularly then its their own look out. People coming into the sport dont have that experience so, for sure they should be paying attention at race briefings to ensure they dont get swum over.

Thinking about it, I guess race organisers give people the chance to provide an estimated swim time for pre-allocating people to waves ... but as always this comes down to their honesty and the point you made ....

People like to think they are fast, then they get swum over, hammered and battered.

I guess its like everything else, its the negative experience that is discussed more ... if someone enters their first triathlon, assumes they can swim in OW since they can swim in a pool and finds themselves at the wrong end of the wave. They tell the world about how awful it all was ... whereas someone with more reasonable expectations that starts the swim to the side or waits until everyones moved off / calmed down to get going is less likely to see the same physical side of the swim start.

The same people who position themselves incorrectly, then get hammered are the same ones who insist on getting in the fast lane and swimming at 2:00 per 100m pace when the medium and slow are there to be used.

Ive alot less patience when people do this in a pool - where its more difficult to pass someone if its busy.

anyhow - OP, very best of luck in Nice
Tunney, great to see you back racing - albeit at sprinty aquathlons (for now I guess;))

tunney

interested wrote: »

Ive alot less patience when people do this in a pool - where its more difficult to pass someone if its busy.

A friend who could do fly very very well used to hop in the fast lane of a 25m pool, do 100m fly and then anyone left in lane was obviously a proper swimmer.

interested wrote: »

anyhow - OP, very best of luck in Nice
Tunney, great to see you back racing - albeit at sprinty aquathlons (for now I guess;))

Not back racing, just back for one show only

interested

tunney wrote: »

A friend who could do fly very very well used to hop in the fast lane of a 25m pool, do 100m fly and then anyone left in lane was obviously a proper swimmer.

Yeah, its a bit showy ... the other one is to get in and use the BFOP (Big F*** O** Paddles) - move or I cut you ... but hey, its nice to be nice ... sometimes -

Not back racing, just back for one show only

Ahh ... I see ... maybe another show at the second of those aquathons next month ? I mean, its a seaside town with a nice prom for a walk for the family and all.

Sport101

levitronix wrote: »

I done my first open sea swim race on sunday at windsurfers peir around 1500m or so no wetsuits, and i couldnt believe how well the swim went everybody holds their line faster swimmers swim round you, not over you! and no body is was climbing all over my back the start.

What is the story with the mongos and i say mongos who swim all over you in triathlons ??

There are couple of major differences between the sea swims & triathlon swims:

1)The seas swims are handicapped so there is no mass frenzied start, therefore you are more likely to have a string of people already along the course before you start so its much easier to navigate your route. I'm pretty sure if it was a group start with sealed handicaps then there would be punching and kicking a plenty.

2)Open water swimming is a contact sport, if you swim on top of one of the competitors (who are mostly experienced sea swimmers) in the sea swims , they will usually kick back, and pretty hard too ( whereas swimmers in Triathlons tend to stop and look around), so people tend to avoid contact unless necessary.

I for one tend not to have too much sympathy for slow swimmers who start at the front of triathlons, if they have to have the goggles knocked off them once in order to listen to clear pre-race instructions then so be it, as they are impeding other competitors who are trying gain the most advantage from their strongest discipline.

hunnymonster

Our local OW swims are not handicapped and I don't know many triathletes who stop and look around.

Sport101

Apologies, I presumed Levitronix was referring to an open water sea swim that was run by Swim Leinster (http://www.swimleinster.com/opensea.htm), which are all handicapped bar 2 scratch races at the end of the season.

n-dawg

I feel that this has a lot to do with locations of Triathlon swims... For example Triathy starts in a narrow river where getting into the fast current is key to a good swim time. On top of this the water is dark and everybody is waring black so contact is always going to happen. No excuse for punching another swimmer though (Some people are always agro).

When you come to a Sea swim the water is clearer, people are white, easy to spot and the start is much wider without a significantly faster route.

I think when Triathlon swims are in the sea a lot of the aggression isn't there, for example killkee this weekend is one of the best swims of the season. Wide start, buoys are easy to spot and clear water with excellent visibility. I would be very suprised to here stories of swimming over people, punching and other aggressive behaviour from there.

Stark

I find triathlon swims fun, but then I haven't had my nose broken yet. I usually start near enough to the back so that I only get a few people trying to swim over me. And I'm not afraid to kick hard if someone's acting the bollix behind me.

Anyway, for the lulz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_6tOzt-nfM

hunnymonster

Sport101 wrote: »

Apologies, I presumed Levitronix was referring to an open water sea swim that was run by Swim Leinster (http://www.swimleinster.com/opensea.htm), which are all handicapped bar 2 scratch races at the end of the season.

apologies from me too. I thought you were making a general comment about OW swim races. I have been exiled to the sticks for too long and indoctrinated with the "there is life beyond the pale line""


love that clif ad. I would love to make one with a triathlete in a washing machine on the spin cycle if I had the techie know how.

dmg10

What I can't figure out is, for the person who's behind me in an open water swim and keeps whacking my legs....once, twice I can understand if they're not the type to be looking forward, but when it goes for 5 times, that's when I start getting a little peeved....it's just an annoyance factor for me and forgive me if my leg feels the need to react to it... but come on, do they not get annoyed themselves continuing to hit someone mid-stroke??? If I end up on someone's feet, I won't hit their feet just because I can, I'll go and find my own space if I want to go on past. Makes sense to me anyway...

levitronix

OMG the amount of negativity here !

Im in the this sport about 5 years with pbs of 2h 18 OL and 5h 10 HIM not the fastest guy the race not the slowest i know where to postion myself in a swim !!! Friends of mine have placed in the liffey and won the harbour swim, they all say the same thing the triathlon swims they are all over the place compared to sea swim races, it seems plenty acceptable to knock your way through someone for better position

Stark

dmg10 wrote: »

What I can't figure out is, for the person who's behind me in an open water swim and keeps whacking my legs....once, twice I can understand if they're not the type to be looking forward, but when it goes for 5 times, that's when I start getting a little peeved....it's just an annoyance factor for me and forgive me if my leg feels the need to react to it... but come on, do they not get annoyed themselves continuing to hit someone mid-stroke??? If I end up on someone's feet, I won't hit their feet just because I can, I'll go and find my own space if I want to go on past. Makes sense to me anyway...

By staying right behind you, they can ride in your wake and it's much less effort them. Overtaking someone is a lot of work, especially as they can then get a boost from you as you're swimming past them. Just switch temporarily to breast stroke and you won't be long rid of the person behind you.

Clum

I don't see why the swim has to be a free for all.

Whatever about slow swimmers starting up front, that's wrong, but there's no need to go slapping folk around just because they're in front of you. Elite runners don't trip up or kick fun runners who either blantantly or mistakenly started too close to the front of the field. Similarly with cyclists, they don't push other cyclists in to the side of the road just because they happen to be going a bit slower.

Stark

Clum wrote:

Elite runners don't trip up or kick fun runners who either blantantly or mistakenly started too close to the front of the field.

They should though.

levitronix

Clum wrote: »

I don't see why the swim has to be a free for all.

Whatever about slow swimmers starting up front, that's wrong, but there's no need to go slapping folk around just because they're in front of you. Elite runners don't trip up or kick fun runners who either blantantly or mistakenly started too close to the front of the field. Similarly with cyclists, they don't push other cyclists in to the side of the road just because they happen to be going a bit slower.

I race on the bike in open races as well and have scored points, so i have an idea what im doing, but if you go nuts through a corners and hold crazy lines you get a bolloxing from everyone, i ve seen hand bags at the side of the road over it, it might look like theres no etiquette but there is.

I know triathlon swims are not going to change but its just a shame when some new people to the sport are put off and panic because of getting swam over

tunney

levitronix wrote: »

OMG the amount of negativity here !

Im in the this sport about 5 years with pbs of 2h 18 OL and 5h 10 HIM not the fastest guy the race not the slowest i know where to postion myself in a swim !!! Friends of mine have placed in the liffey and won the harbour swim, they all say the same thing the triathlon swims they are all over the place compared to sea swim races, it seems plenty acceptable to knock your way through someone for better position

Well keep at it, you'll get the times down eventually.

tunney

Clum wrote: »

I don't see why the swim has to be a free for all.

Whatever about slow swimmers starting up front, that's wrong, but there's no need to go slapping folk around just because they're in front of you. Elite runners don't trip up or kick fun runners who either blantantly or mistakenly started too close to the front of the field. Similarly with cyclists, they don't push other cyclists in to the side of the road just because they happen to be going a bit slower.

Watch a running race in the park - every year fun runners start at the front. Are they gentlely sheparded to the back? Are they fvck.

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.

tunney

levitronix wrote: »

I race on the bike in open races as well and have scored points, so i have an idea what im doing, but if you go nuts through a corners and hold crazy lines you get a bolloxing from everyone, i ve seen hand bags at the side of the road over it, it might look like theres no etiquette but there is.

I know triathlon swims are not going to change but its just a shame when some new people to the sport are put off and panic because of getting swam over

Then they should listen to the briefing and start from the very very back and to the side.

levitronix

tunney wrote: »

Well keep at it, you'll get the times down eventually.

haha funny f**ker .. funny thing i think they re going the other way now ..

Clum

tunney wrote: »

Watch a running race in the park - every year fun runners start at the front. Are they gentlely sheparded to the back? Are they fvck.

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.

I've been up the front at plenty of races in the park myself. Just like the rest of the front runners I always have joggers and walkers get in my way but I've never seen them being mishandled.

MrCreosote

Clum wrote: »

I've been up the front at plenty of races in the park myself. Just like the rest of the front runners I always have joggers and walkers get in my way but I've never seen them being mishandled.

The difference is that usually you can give a shout to get through in a run.

As for the tris-some people do take the mickey a bit, but most of the jostling is just part of having a few hundred trying to get through a small space as quickly as possible. Just another part of the experience, and usually easy to avoid. And it doesn't matter if you can do 200m in 2:40 in the pool or whatever- if you're a bit freaked out by the bashing then don't go to the front. Personally I go to the side and find it a lot better- usually much more space and easier to get a rhythm going, at the cost of a slightly longer swim.

By the way, not talking about swimming on top of people deliberately either- that's just plain obnoxious. These are prob the same guys that will spend the bike drafting too...

shotgunmcos

What else would you expect if you have a line of 30 swimmers, 5 deep treading water and all looking at the same target :rolleyes: There is going to be some bumping etc... Of course I don't advocate the punching aka HMs IM incident (I'd happily whallop someone myself if I saw them punch a girl like that) but its no coincidence that a more narrow river swim in murkier waters is more physical.

Last year the roughest swim for me was triAthy. Narrow murky river, downstream and a mix of all abilities in the wave. Proper mosh pit

The nicest swim was Kilkee by a distance. I remember thinking how 'polite' the swim was! The water was lovely and clear and that had to be a contributing factor.

I'd echo the sentiments, if you are a nervous OW swimmer, or weak swimmer or just weak, or hate the washing machine, then stay back out of it at the start. You can always move up through the field when it strings out.

Personally, I love the madness at the start!

ir666

Did Mullaghmore last weekend. Started at the edge near the front in wave 3 and never even touched another swimmer.

@ the Crooked lake there was some contact, a few light kicks to the face. I also "contacted" a few others by accident.

Both swims were a mighty buzz and my first Tris.

However I am very confident in the water.

The bottom line is if you are nervous,,, starting at the back is the way to go.:cool: