Gert Smal's assertion about John Hayes

heybaby

In todays Irish times amongst other things Gert Smal believes John Hayes will make it to the world cup, lets hope its only as a spectator for Godsake!! Poor oul bull has been through enough punishment why bring him to the world cup as a player at almost 38 years of age..its utter lunacy!!:eek:


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0621/1224272952581.html

Werent people concerned that he wouldnt make the 07 WC, let alone the 11 one?! :eek:
I'm starting to feel sorry for him

Shane10

just cause hes getting on dosent mean he shouldnt be there. im sure he wants to play on for ireland and why shouldnt he.

heybaby

Shane10 wrote: »

just cause hes getting on dosent mean he shouldnt be there. im sure he wants to play on for ireland and why shouldnt he.

Purely and simply he cant deliver anymore, the only reason he is still in the frame at all is because of the severe shortage of tight head props in irish rugby. The arguement could be made that he is suspect now even at provincial level for munster. I dont doubt for one moment he wants to play for ireland, but his best days are behind him, and to consider him for inclusion in next years world cup is crazy, particularly when Smal seems to think Buckley has the potential to be world class (his words not mine), so if he thinks that, he has to allow him to build on his terrific performance against the kiwis, and have buckley replace hayes as the number one. Time for hayes to retire from international rugby end of.

Podge_irl

He's hardly going to come out and say that Hayes is past it and isn't going to make it.

CouchSmart

Ireland's most consistently inconsistent player, Buckley, has a decent game against a very disjoint NZ side and people think Hayes is now surplus to requirements? Hayes has been poor for the last two years but until someone else is consistently less poor there's nothing to suggest he won't be headed next year.

I would take these comments more as a challenge to players such as Buckley and Ross to up there games because right now Hayes is on the plane to NZ Autumn 2011.

bamboozle

Shane10 wrote: »

just cause hes getting on dosent mean he shouldnt be there. im sure he wants to play on for ireland and why shouldnt he.

if this season has proved anything its that Hayes is past it, great servant but time to ditch and give valuable experience to Court, Buckley or Ross

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's hardly going to come out and say that Hayes is past it and isn't going to make it.

Why say anything though? He seems to be a fairly straight forward bloke. He wasn't sparing in his criticism of the disfunctioning LO against the ABs (which he put down to "... we cocked up a couple of things and it’s not all down to the hooker (Cronin),” he stressed, before itemising a lengthy list of other aspects than went wrong, such as not listening or reacting to calls, timing and incorrect lifting..

He was also critical of the LO for the Maori game "In the second half we changed to another system and it got a lot better."

Hayes was on for the second half of the Maori game.

Mr.Applepie

thehighground wrote: »

He was also critical of the LO for the Maori game "In the second half we changed to another system and it got a lot better."

Hayes was on for the second half of the Maori game.

Unfortunately that's the only part of his game which is still going well. He's form at scrumtime has been poor this year and was never the best ball in hand.

Ciaran-Irl

thehighground wrote: »

Why say anything though? He seems to be a fairly straight forward bloke. He wasn't sparing in his criticism of the disfunctioning LO against the ABs (which he put down to "... we cocked up a couple of things and it’s not all down to the hooker (Cronin),” he stressed, before itemising a lengthy list of other aspects than went wrong, such as not listening or reacting to calls, timing and incorrect lifting..

He was also critical of the LO for the Maori game "In the second half we changed to another system and it got a lot better."

Hayes was on for the second half of the Maori game.

a) He was almost certainly asked by the journalist, and b) In your examples, he is not criticizing an individual. Massive difference.

He hasn't played any more than 40 minutes for Ireland since the 6 nations. He didn't do anything particularly wrong in that 40 minutes, so what would he say about the man?

Obviously he would criticize Hayes.

thehighground

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

a) He was almost certainly asked by the journalist, and b) In your examples, he is not criticizing an individual. Massive difference.

He hasn't played any more than 40 minutes for Ireland since the 6 nations. He didn't do anything particularly wrong in that 40 minutes, so what would he say about the man?

Obviously he would criticize Hayes.

I still think Smal would answer honestly and ask Thornley to say nothing if he felt he wouldn't make it.

Of course Smal isn't going to criticise anyone in particular - but its interesting that the area that John Hayes is lauded for (LO) was criticised by Smal when Hayes wasn't on the pitch.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

He was also critical of the LO for the Maori game "In the second half we changed to another system and it got a lot better."

Hayes was on for the second half of the Maori game.

“Again, it’s all about experience and the Maori came up with a completely different lineout from the previous week. But then you must be able to adapt."

Lineout adapted in second half because Maori changed their LO from previous week. You're implying Hayes shored up the LO, which is taking Smal out of context. His tactical nous shored up the LO. Whether Hayes extra height over Court was part of this tactic remains unknown.

thehighground

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Unfortunately that's the only part of his game which is still going well. He's form at scrumtime has been poor this year and was never the best ball in hand.

Can you tell me who have been good at scrumtime.

Healy. No. (Fantastic in the Loose though).
Horan. OKish - in one game anyway - Euan Murray in Northampton Game.
Court. Has done very well at LH in Ulster (then he is playing with a top TH). Wasn't great at TH against Maori.
Buckley. No. but has been fantastic in the loose.
Ross - scrumtime Great (magners though). Just not mobile enough for Inter. rugby.

Thats about it then.

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

“Again, it’s all about experience and the Maori came up with a completely different lineout from the previous week. But then you must be able to adapt."

Lineout adapted in second half because Maori changed their LO from previous week. You're implying Hayes shored up the LO, which is taking Smal out of context. His tactical nous shored up the LO. Whether Hayes extra height over Court was part of this tactic remains unknown.

Your taking that quote out of context in my post. There are two games he referred to, not just the Maori game. Hayes' timing and the fact that he can lift on his own was Smal's tactic I'd guess.

Why did Court come off by the way? I can't remember him getting injured.

Mr.Applepie

thehighground wrote: »

Can you tell me who have been good at scrumtime.

Healy. No. (Fantastic in the Loose though).
Horan. OKish - in one game anyway - Euan Murray in Northampton Game.

I would say that Healy has been a lot better that Horan this season. Horan has been very poor since returning from injury.

thehighground wrote: »

Court. Has done very well at LH in Ulster (then he is playing with a top TH). Wasn't great at TH against Maori.
Buckley. No. but has been fantastic in the loose.
Ross - scrumtime Great (magners though). Just not mobile enough for Inter. rugby.

Thats about it then.

Ross and Court(when played there) have been better at scrumtime at TH. If I recall correctly Buckley didn't play well at the beginning of this season but has seemed* to turn a corner around 6 nations time.

It really depends on what you want your props to do. With the new interpretations I think focus has moved towards the scrum from the lineout (set piece wise).

Personally my ability preference for props would be:

1. Scrumage
2. Handling
3. Lineout

*Who knows what Mushy will do game by game.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

Your taking that quote out of context in my post. There are two games he referred to, not just the Maori game. Hayes' timing and the fact that he can lift on his own was Smal's tactic I'd guess.

You only part quoted Smal and then threw your own statement in straight afterwards. This is misleading as Smal never even mentioned Hayes while discussing the lineout. O'Callaghan came on too. As did Wallace. All of this could have made a difference. I'm sure he also analysed their lineout and saw a pattern in it. Hardly as simple as let's put the taller guy in.

thehighground wrote: »

Why did Court come off by the way? I can't remember him getting injured.

There was probably a whole host of reasons to take him off. Rest him for this week, give Hayes game time(Kidney said everyone on tour would get game time, Hayes had to get it last week), easily could have tweaked something. He was having a poor game too so maybe they wanted him off to see if Hayes would be an improvement. He wasn't.

Mothman

heybaby wrote: »

Gert Smal believes John Hayes will make it to the world cup,

How many Tight Heads will be traveling to RWC

Would it be 3? If so, not hard to imagine Hayes would be at least 3rd choice and hence at RWC.

thomond2006

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's hardly going to come out and say that Hayes is past it and isn't going to make it.

I need say no more, spot on.

thehighground

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

I would say that Healy has been a lot better that Horan this season. Horan has been very poor since returning from injury.

If we're talking about scrummaging - Horan had a very good outing against Euan Murray, a highly rated scrummager (who was taken off at about 60mins)

Ross and Court(when played there) have been better at scrumtime at TH. If I recall correctly Buckley didn't play well at the beginning of this season but has seemed* to turn a corner around 6 nations time.

The thing is they (Ross & Court) rarely play there and when they do, it in the Magners.

It really depends on what you want your props to do. With the new interpretations I think focus has moved towards the scrum from the lineout (set piece wise).

Personally my ability preference for props would be:

1. Scrumage
2. Handling
3. Lineout

*Who knows what Mushy will do game by game.

I think old Gert likes a decent lineout and then of course there are generally a hell of a lot more LOs than scrums (in the ABs game - there were 7 scrums and 21 lineouts in all).

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

You only part quoted Smal and then threw your own statement in straight afterwards. This is misleading as Smal never even mentioned Hayes while discussing the lineout. O'Callaghan came on too. As did Wallace. All of this could have made a difference. I'm sure he also analysed their lineout and saw a pattern in it. Hardly as simple as let's put the taller guy in.

I don't know how you could have found that misleading (and I would be thick to try it considering everyone has access to the article - which is why I didn't quote the whole thing in the first place). I never claimed that Smal mentioned Hayes as the reason the LO improved! If its ok for people to claim that Smal was lying when he said he felt that Hayes would make the RWC, I can't see why that an improvement in the LO could be down to John Hayes (who is famed for his lifting and timing ability which is what Smal was criticial of in the first half of the Maori game and all through the ABs game).

Timeline for substitutions: Hayes (42mins), Wallace 63 mins, O'Callaghan 64 mins.

It is my guess that Hayes was brought on to see if the LO would improve with Hayes and give Tuohy & O'Donoghue the extra time.

There was probably a whole host of reasons to take him off. Rest him for this week, give Hayes game time(Kidney said everyone on tour would get game time, Hayes had to get it last week), easily could have tweaked something. He was having a poor game too so maybe they wanted him off to see if Hayes would be an improvement. He wasn't.

Court got 3 mins against the ABs and 15 mins against the Barbarians (for Marcus Horan). He would need the time more than anyone. I don't think Hayes needs gametime, particularly when he has been sick - they would have been better off sending him home to rest if he wasn't needed.

The LO improved according to Small though.

Mr.Applepie

thehighground wrote: »

If we're talking about scrummaging - Horan had a very good outing against Euan Murray, a highly rated scrummager (who was taken off at about 60mins)

Was this the QF? I can't recall. You have to admit he has being pinged an awful lot.

thehighground wrote: »

The thing is they (Ross & Court) rarely play there and when they do, it in the Magners.

Hayes plays in the ML too. It's comparable and they've done better.

thehighground wrote: »

I think old Gert likes a decent lineout and then of course there are generally a hell of a lot more LOs than scrums (in the ABs game - there were 7 scrums and 21 lineouts in all).

Yeah you really hit the nail on the head there. We kick the ball way to much! Maybe a running front 5 could help there.

pabear

tony buckley is the only real alternative to hayes and he should get as much game time in before next years WC, because he needs every minute he can get!

thehighground

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Was this the QF? I can't recall. You have to admit he has being pinged an awful lot.

It was the QF - I did say he had ONE good performance! I can't recall anyone else having a good one against rated opposition.

Hayes plays in the ML too. It's comparable and they've done better.

Hayes only played 7 Magners and he does start in more challenging games than Court or Ross - Court rarely plays TH for Ulster.

Yeah you really hit the nail on the head there. We kick the ball way to much! Maybe a running front 5 could help there.

So what do you do if the opposition kicks the ball away - SA for instance, who have a very good LO (and a pretty good scrum as well).

Edit: 50% of those LO were AB throws. The Irish LO has been successful because POC (& Cullen) compete very well on opposition ball.

Scrums are generally handling errors. No handling errors. No scrums.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

I don't know how you could have found that misleading (and I would be thick to try it considering everyone has access to the article - which is why I didn't quote the whole thing in the first place). I never claimed that Smal mentioned Hayes as the reason the LO improved!

It seems misleading to me. Just structure you used using quotes followed by personal statements without clearly stating them as your opinion is a dangerous game. I'll leave it at that and take 'the highground', we obviously have different opinions on it.

thehighground wrote: »

If its ok for people to claim that Smal was lying when he said he felt that Hayes would make the RWC

Not really sure if this is aimed at me or what but my opinion on it, as posted earlier:

CouchSmart wrote: »

Ireland's most consistently inconsistent player, Buckley, has a decent game against a very disjoint NZ side and people think Hayes is now surplus to requirements? Hayes has been poor for the last two years but until someone else is consistently less poor there's nothing to suggest he won't be headed next year.

I would take these comments more as a challenge to players such as Buckley and Ross to up there games because right now Hayes is on the plane to NZ Autumn 2011.

thehighground wrote: »

I can't see why that an improvement in the LO could be down to John Hayes (who is famed for his lifting and timing ability which is what Smal was criticial of in the first half of the Maori game and all through the ABs game).

Timeline for substitutions: Hayes (42mins), Wallace 63 mins, O'Callaghan 64 mins.

It is my guess that Hayes was brought on to see if the LO would improve with Hayes and give Tuohy & O'Donoghue the extra time.

I agree with this.

thehighground wrote: »

Court got 3 mins against the ABs and 15 mins against the Barbarians (for Marcus Horan). He would need the time more than anyone. I don't think Hayes needs gametime, particularly when he has been sick - they would have been better off sending him home to rest if he wasn't needed.

The LO improved according to Small though.

I don't think he needs it either. DK said everyone was going to get game time. He delivered on this.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's hardly going to come out and say that Hayes is past it and isn't going to make it.

Better quote here. He certainly seems to say what he thinks!

Hayes can still make impact at World Cup, insists Smal
By Joe Callaghan
Monday, June 21, 2010

Ireland’s most capped player will be 37 by the time the finals roll around in New Zealand next September but national team forwards coach Gert Smal remains confident time will not fully catch up with the Munster tight head in the meantime.

"The challenge is up to him," said Smal yesterday. "I don’t want to say that certain guys are assured of a place in the World Cup. They must fight for it and the more they fight for it, the better they will play and the better the competition then it’s all for the better for Irish rugby, even within the system.

"But where we are at the minute with props, you can’t discard anyone. We know where the top four or five props are and we have to get the best out of them before the World Cup. I don’t think there are any youngsters now in the country who will make a difference and force their way into the World Cup. The guys we have at the moment, we’re going to see how much game time we can get for them and technically and tactically up-skill them as best we can."

http://www.examiner.ie/archives/2010/0621/sport/hayes-can-still-make-impact-at-world-cup-insists-smal-122984.html

thehighground

CouchSmart wrote: »

It seems misleading to me. Just structure you used using quotes followed by personal statements without clearly stating them as your opinion is a dangerous game. I'll leave it at that and take 'the highground', we obviously have different opinions on it.

Sorry about that - I thought quote marks/italics would be enough to indicate it was a quote, particularly as anyone reading the thread would have read the newspaper article in the first place.

CouchSmart

The quoting was fine, totally got that. It was the statement underneath it that irked me. I think it should've been stated as an opinion.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

Better quote here. He certainly seems to say what he thinks!

Must be very disheartening from a Youngsters point of view. On the other hand it might push them on in a, 'I'll show him' kind of way.

sock puppet

Mothman wrote: »

How many Tight Heads will be traveling to RWC

Would it be 3? If so, not hard to imagine Hayes would be at least 3rd choice and hence at RWC.

Probably the same as this tour. 2 specialists in Hayes and Buckley and Court who covers both. Hayes may still be 2nd choice but if Buckley starts then Court is the better option on the bench.

Stev_o

Realistically he should be retire from international rugby this year and end his pro carreer with Munster at the end of the season hopefully with a medal around his neck. The longer he continues about this the more he ll be remembered for how he's playing now (extremely crap) compared to how he should be remembered.

He's possibly doing it for the money and i wouldnt blame him considering the doubts over the farming economy in Ireland in these days but surely he'd see sense and accept that he is risking serious injury which could see him unable to work for the rest of his life.

He's been a superb servant to Munster and Ireland and i don't think we ll ever see a prop last long without injury in club and international level let's not see him ruined by being made a mockery of in future internationals because he really doesn't deserve that.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Ross - scrumtime Great (magners though). Just not mobile enough for Inter. rugby.

It's nonsensical to dismiss an option as not mobile enough when the alternative is Hayes.

I like the guy, he certainly doesn't owe Ireland or Munster anything, but the decline in his performances this year has been shocking and if he ends up going to the RWC the Irish scrum is going to get embarrassed.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's nonsensical to dismiss an option as not mobile enough when the alternative is Hayes.

I like the guy, he certainly doesn't owe Ireland or Munster anything, but the decline in his performances this year has been shocking and if he ends up going to the RWC the Irish scrum is going to get embarrassed.

I doubt if the Irish management want to be embarrassed at the RWC and I don't think the IRFU would be big into subsidising Hayes' farming activities while reducing all central contracts to 22 and fine players like Gordon Darcy are not gifted with a central contract despite there not being huge depth at inside centre.

To put it simple, there are no alternatives to John Hayes at international level. If Ross gets to start for Leinster this season, he may have a chance of getting in front of Hayes, but at the moment he is unproven.

CouchSmart

thehighground wrote: »

I doubt if the Irish management want to be embarrassed at the RWC and I don't think the IRFU would be big into subsidising Hayes' farming activities while reducing all central contracts to 22 and fine players like Gordon Darcy are not gifted with a central contract despite there not being huge depth at inside centre.

To put it simple, there are no alternatives to John Hayes at international level. If Ross gets to start for Leinster this season, he may have a chance of getting in front of Hayes, but at the moment he is unproven.

D'Arce is on a central contract. His pay packet has been reduced along with everyone else who's contract expired this year. Silly cutbacks!