Lydia Foy

L.Jenkins

Finally after 13 years she's won her legal battle to have her birth cert changed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0621/foyl.html

baby and crumble

I'm glad. Lydia is a lovely woman, incredibly intelligent, and a pleasure to know. I was in a writing group with her in Athy library when I was going through my 'poetic tortured teenager' phase...

Plus my Mam liked her, and she was a pretty good judge of character.

unreggd

I dont understand why they'd change it

Its a legal record of your birth. She was born male, that can never be changed.

Don't mean to offend or be negative, just my opinion!

Links234

unreggd wrote: »

I dont understand why they'd change it

Its a legal record of your birth. She was born male, that can never be changed.

Don't mean to offend or be negative, just my opinion!

She needed it changed to be legally a woman, the whole "historical document" angle is meaningless if it stands in the way of that.

unreggd

Links234 wrote: »

She needed it changed to be legally a woman, the whole "historical document" angle is meaningless if it stands in the way of that.

Well thats another debate, but I'll leave it

congrats to her on a personal level I guess

Chinafoot

Major congrats to her..and while I don't want to taint the thread, I don't believe the birth cert should be changed but rather an ammendment should be introduced that acknowledges the change of gender. But as that would be far too simplistic and sensible for our government to introduce, I'm delighted that she got the next best outcome for her.

Giselle

Chinafoot wrote: »

Major congrats to her..and while I don't want to taint the thread, I don't believe the birth cert should be changed but rather an ammendment should be introduced that acknowledges the change of gender. But as that would be far too simplistic and sensible for our government to introduce, I'm delighted that she got the next best outcome for her.

Her gender never changed, only her body.

Links234

My point on the other thread about this was that gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs. as a document of a person's gender, the birth cert isn't accurate. Mine says male, but that's not something I've ever felt I have been. I may have male parts, but I am not now nor was I ever male.

It's like people say that you can't change sex. well, no. you can change sex, that's what's between the legs, but you can't change gender, because gender is the constant. if Ms. Foy's gender is female then that's a constant, and was true at the time of her birth.

unreggd

But you can't change sex

A "sex change" op is just cosmetic. A post-op MTF patient loses the penis, but doesnt gain a fully functioning vagina / womb. They become a hybrid

And you said Gender and Sex are different, so why the need to change?
I doubt Lydia would see herself as Gender: Female, Sex: Male

Plautus

I know that you are making a technical point unreggd about how sex and gender are different ... but in society they're used interchangeably, and as for the state it (until now) recognised no such subtlety and treated you according to the gender on your birth cert.

That can be important for all kinds of reasons. If you're not female on your birth cert. that will create the awkward situation, and it's easy to see how a transgender person would find it insulting and demeaning, where each time you go through an application process for something that requires the birth certificate you'd have to explain that, no, in fact you are female or vice versa.

I certainly know that if applying to a University or for a Passport your birth certificate will be expected of you at some stage in the process. Is it not a bit rich to expect Lydia Foy to be happy with being seen as a man in the eyes of the law when she is, for all purposes that matter outside of chromosomal arrangement, a woman? The ECHR thought it egregious, for one.

Links234

unreggd wrote: »

But you can't change sex

But during the operation, they CHANGE it. So you can change sex, you see?

unreggd wrote: »

A "sex change" op is just cosmetic.

A face lift is cosmetic. or a tummy tuck or breast implants are cosmetic.
Genital reassignment changes the whole function of the organ in ways that cannot be called cosmetic.

I would consider it "corrective" surgery

unreggd wrote: »

A post-op MTF patient loses the penis, but doesnt gain a fully functioning vagina / womb. They become a hybrid

what do you mean they lose the penis? you're not one who thinks they just amputate do you? that's a silly idea and not at all what happens. during genital reassignment, the head of the penis becomes the clitoris and so on, it's mostly used to form the new vagina, and it's a pretty functional vagina that as well that's fully capable of pleasure and orgasm. and that's what it is, in form and function; a vagina
You don't get a womb, sure, but then are you saying that women who are without wombs are hybrids too?

unreggd wrote: »

And you said Gender and Sex are different, so why the need to change?

To bring the physical sex into harmony with the gender identity of course,
are you serious with that question?

unreggd wrote: »

I doubt Lydia would see herself as Gender: Female, Sex: Male

No, i would say that she sees herself as female in both gender and sex now.

Chinafoot

Giselle wrote: »

Her gender never changed, only her body.

Pedantic much? I think it was fairly obvious what I meant.

There should be an amendment on her birth cert that acknowledges her change of sex.

Is that better for you?

Giselle

Chinafoot wrote: »

Pedantic much? I think it was fairly obvious what I meant.

There should be an amendment on her birth cert that acknowledges her change of sex.

Is that better for you?

Not everybody is completely cognisant of the definitions of sex versus gender, and not knowing you personally I don't think it was obvious what your intent was.

I certainly wasn't trying to be pedantic, and I don't think that tone is called for.