Pro-Israel gatekeepers Wikipedia attempting to remove Furkan Dogan's page

Brown Bomber

Furkan Dogan was the New York born human rights activist assasinated by Israeli commando's during the IDF ambush of the Mavi Marmara. He was just 19 years old.

Reportedly this is his moment of death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FTch0KXUGc

His autopsy revealed

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

http://flotillamassacrepassengers.wordpress.com/category/usa/murdered-usa/furkan-dogan/

Now Wikipedia are attempting to remove his Wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Furkan_Do%C4%9Fan

PirateShampoo

Pretty much agree with this statement.

"His role was getting killed, a sad as that is. He was not a major player in the events. By your rationale, every person that died in the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks should have their own page because it significantly changed relations between the United States and numerous other nations."

Do any other of the victims have a Wiki page?

Torakx

Maybe they should have one.Considering the sacrifice they gave was war with the middle east.Although easier to have one page for all the people killed that does make sense also if we are argueing semantics.
I suppose a wiki page to cover all the people killed etc otw to Gaza that day might be better then just one person.

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Do any other of the victims have a Wiki page?

Yes

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Pretty much agree with this statement.

"His role was getting killed, a sad as that is. He was not a major player in the events. By your rationale, every person that died in the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks should have their own page because it significantly changed relations between the United States and numerous other nations."

Do any other of the victims have a Wiki page?

Best recent case but still dwarfs it in terms of scope and effect is the Rodney King case. Rodney King has a massive wiki page, Rodney Trotter has a wiki page Boards.ie has a wiki page.

Here is one of hundreds of murder victims who have their own wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McDaid_%28murder_victim%29

robtri

maybe i am mistaken.. but my reading isnt of deletion of the whole page, its the requests to make changes to the article... happens a lot in wikipedia....
for example i could put up a page on wiki mr xyz is a racist fecker who kills. this page is subject to change and people can request from wikipedia to chage it as mr xyz is not a racist killer.....

stiring stuff up when no need to...

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

maybe i am mistaken.. but my reading isnt of deletion of the whole page, its the requests to make changes to the article... happens a lot in wikipedia....
for example i could put up a page on wiki mr xyz is a racist fecker who kills. this page is subject to change and people can request from wikipedia to chage it as mr xyz is not a racist killer.....

stiring stuff up when no need to...

Isaiah 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'

Isaiah 43:8 Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.

Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house

Matthew 13:14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Mark 8:18 "HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

John 12:40"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

Acts 28:26 saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Romans 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Furkan Doğan

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Isaiah 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'Isaiah 43:8 Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.Matthew 13:14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;Mark 8:18 "HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,John 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."Acts 28:26 saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;Romans 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

what sort of crap is that???????????

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

what sort of crap is that???????????

Quotes from The Bible. It was supposed to make the point that you have amazingly missed the headline of the linked Wiki page was

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Furkan Doğan

Under the section of

< Wikipedia:Articles for deletion

With the opening line of

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.

humanji

In fairness, Rodney King, Derek Trotter and Boards.ie all fit the Wikipedia guidlines for inclusion. Victims of incidents generally don't because of the "notability" clause, so by the wikipedia guidelines, Dogan's page should be deleted and his information put as a footnote the the floatilla page.

I've no doubt that there's Israel gov. organised groups trying to get the page deleted, while there's also most assuredly pro-palestinian people trying to let it stay. It sucks that someones life reduced to a page on a website that others use for their own ends and don't really give a f*ck about the individual, but that's life.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Quotes from The Bible. It was supposed to make the point that you have amazingly missed the headline of the linked Wiki page was



Under the section of


With the opening line of

and as i said in my reply if i not mistaken thats how they handled the changes... deletions and addions to pages...

and u can keep that **** of the bible thank you

Brown Bomber

humanji wrote: »

In fairness, Rodney King, Derek Trotter and Boards.ie all fit the Wikipedia guidlines for inclusion. Victims of incidents generally don't because of the "notability" clause, so by the wikipedia guidelines, Dogan's page should be deleted and his information put as a footnote the the floatilla page.

What is notable about Rodney King other than the fact he was a victim of police brutality?

He sparked riots in LA. The attacks on the flotilla sparked outrage worldwide, in part to the murders of the passengers.

humanji wrote: »

It sucks that someones life reduced to a page on a website that others use for their own ends and don't really give a f*ck about the individual, but that's life.

What have you based this on?

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

and as i said in my reply if i not mistaken thats how they handled the changes... deletions and addions to pages...

OK. But I have no idea why you are bringing this up?

This is what you said first

maybe i am mistaken.. but my reading isnt of deletion of the whole page, its the requests to make changes to the article

It is regarding the deletion of the whole page.

Now we either weren't on the same page literally or metaphorically. Either way you were on the wrong page. So either go back an click the link in the OP or read it properly, the first line is all you need.

robtri wrote: »

and u can keep that **** of the bible thank you

"Let those who have eyes see" Its a universal truth.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What is notable about Rodney King other than the fact he was a victim of police brutality?

He sparked riots in LA. The attacks on the flotilla sparked outrage worldwide, in part to the murders of the passengers.

What have you based this on?

what about these kids


do they deserve wiki pages...

israeli kids killed by palestinians

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. But I have no idea why you are bringing this up?

cause it was my understanding that the whole page was not under threat of deletion... thats all
...

humanji

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What is notable about Rodney King other than the fact he was a victim of police brutality?

He sparked riots in LA. The attacks on the flotilla sparked outrage worldwide, in part to the murders of the passengers.

The incident where he was beaten is an important event in modern US history and that's what his page is mostly about. They could have a seperate page, but considering that he's the key element, it makes sense that his page is there. Also, it fits in with the notability guide.

Currently, Dogan is a guy who was killed on the flotilla. To be perfectly honest, I didn't know who he was until this thread. He's been mentioned in the news, but he hasn't been the main focus of the new. The guys who run wikipedia didn't want it turning into a joke with anybody and everybody having a page dedicated to them, so they set out criteria that people have to meet.

It may arise in time (King's page was made 12 years after the event) that the page fits well with Wikipedia's guides, but at the moment, it technically doesn't. What makes it different to the Kevin McDaid page is that people complained about Dogan's page. Neither are technically elegable for inclusion on wikipedia.

What have you based this on?

Isn't this whole thread about Israel trying to get rid of a wikipedia article?

Brown Bomber

humanji wrote: »

The incident where he was beaten is an important event in modern US history and that's what his page is mostly about. They could have a seperate page, but considering that he's the key element, it makes sense that his page is there. Also, it fits in with the notability guide.

Currently, Dogan is a guy who was killed on the flotilla. To be perfectly honest, I didn't know who he was until this thread. He's been mentioned in the news, but he hasn't been the main focus of the new. The guys who run wikipedia didn't want it turning into a joke with anybody and everybody having a page dedicated to them, so they set out criteria that people have to meet.

It may arise in time (King's page was made 12 years after the event) that the page fits well with Wikipedia's guides, but at the moment, it technically doesn't. What makes it different to the Kevin McDaid page is that people complained about Dogan's page. Neither are technically elegable for inclusion on wikipedia.


Isn't this whole thread about Israel trying to get rid of a wikipedia article?

Thanks for that notability guide link.

Here is another example Dogan was assasinated, Howard Brennan witnessed an assassination and has his own page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Brennan

studiorat

It's interesting to look at who the main proponents for and against the page existing are. Those who seem to want the page there have only been Wiki contributers for 2 or three weeks or are Turkish. In fact one of the authors has also created another page to one of the flotilla victims, the page of an Islamist Politician from Turkey, suggesting to me that they have a biased view.

Perhaps the Flotilla page should look at something like this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)#The_dead Here we see there isn't a page dedicated to each victim.

I'd like to know how it is that the OP reckons Wikipedia are pro-israeli? There' a Rachael Corrie page as is there a page for others killed in similar circumstances.

The Article is still on Wikipedia, the issue of notability has not been resolved either way. It states at the beginning of the discussion that both sides have made valid arguments.

Why does the OP think there should be a Dogan page as opposed to him simply being listed as a victim in the main article? And how can this be done without violating the credibility of Wiki as an impartial source since for example the victims of Palestinian terrorism don't each have a page dedicated to them.

One particularly interesting fact mentioned and one which there definitely is a Pro-Palestinian conspiracy cover-up is the fact that more foreigners have been killed by Palestinian Terrorists than by the IDF.

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

One particularly interesting fact mentioned and one which there definitely is a Pro-Palestinian conspiracy cover-up is the fact that more foreigners have been killed by Palestinian Terrorists than by the IDF.

Covered up by whom? The Pal Telegraph? :pac::pac:

I can't comment on the accuracy of your statement but it should not matter to you if the life taken is Palestinian, Israeli or from anywhere else.

Not everyone thinks this way though

Mr Olmert said last night in Caesarea: "I am deeply sorry for the residents of Gaza, but the lives, security and well-being of the residents of Sderot [the Israeli border town which has borne the brunt of Qassam attacks] is even more important. I reject the attacks on the IDF and its commanders. No one is more dedicated or more cautious, and will continue to be so in the future."

Do you?

Duiske

robtri wrote: »

what about these kids

do they deserve wiki pages...

israeli kids killed by palestinians

103 kids there. Actually, in the past 10 years 124 Israeli kids have died as a result of terrorism.

During the same period, 1,446 Palestinian children were killed by actions attributable to the IDF.

No matter what side of the fence anyone is on, those figures are horrific.

Lab_Mouse

Duiske wrote: »

No matter what side of the fence anyone is on, those figures are horrific.

And both sides, in their attempts to make life better for themselves,turn everthing to sh1t.Go figure.Human nature at it's worst.

northwest100

was the state of israel established in order to justify an indefinite presence in the middle east?

reprazant

God, did people actually read it?

The discussion is on whether his role, and death, was important enough to have a page of his own or whether his page should be merged with the flotilla page.

This is not some sort Israel conspiracy but a normal wikipedia discussion. Wikipedia are not 'pro-Israel', or pro-anything other than the advancement of information for everyone. To say otherwise is just pathetic and insulting to the thousands of people who keep it going with their own money and their own free time.

Brown Bomber

reprazant wrote: »

God, did people actually read it?

The discussion is on whether his role, and death, was important enough to have a page of his own or whether his page should be merged with the flotilla page.

This is not some sort Israel conspiracy but a normal wikipedia discussion. Wikipedia are not 'pro-Israel', or pro-anything other than the advancement of information for everyone. To say otherwise is just pathetic and insulting to the thousands of people who keep it going with their own money and their own free time.

sure.

Wikipedia removes their "Sayanim" page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayanim

from the waybackmachine

Sayanim

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
According to former Mossad katsa and author Victor Ostrovsky and Thomas Gordon, Sayanim is a term used to describe Jews living outside Israel as foreign citizens that volunteer to provide assistance to the Mossad. This assistance includes facilitating medical care, money, logistics, and even overt intelligence gathering, yet sayanim are only paid for their expenses. No official number is known, but estimates put the number of sayanim in the thousands. The existence of this large body of volunteers is one reason why the Mossad operates with fewer case officers than fellow intelligence agencies. Ostrovsky's claims have not been verified from other sources.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080209225054/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayanim

shedweller

Its a laugh when i see pages like this deleted. Whats more of a laugh is that i went to wikipedia and searched for "poo" and there was loads of info.
Yet the reasons for deleting the Furkan Dogan page were "Certainly a notable event, but his role was minor per.........."
Honestly, the internet is full of crap. We are being lied to on a daily basis but we are collectively too thick to deal with it.