moral dilemma #5

scrubber72

Played today in a 4ball better ball. Par 3 and my opposites had a birdie putt from just off the green. Player A attended the flag the flag as his partner played his putt. He made the putt but I told them that they had broken a ruling. Words insued and well it just didnt end with chat from next tee to the finish. Now I believed I was correct but is there a new ruling as to this or am I mistaken.
Thx

G1032

AFAIK that is allowed. You can have flad attended whether ball is on or off the green. As long as the ball didn't go in the hole while the other guy was holding the flag
How many points had ye? Course was in great shape. Fab day for golf.

Trampas

ronaldochokes wrote: »

AFAIK that is allowed. Doesn't matter if ball is on or off the green if flag is attended.

I think you are correct to. OP are you certain that you were in the right?

scrubber72

hi ron. The player tending the flag held onto it for the entire shot of his partner. Had 42 today.

scrubber72

I always believed that you can only tend a flag on if the player putting is on the green.

G1032

scrubber72 wrote: »

hi ron. The player tending the flag held onto it for the entire shot of his partner. Had 42 today.

OOps. Penalty shot alright if the ball went into the hole while the flag was being attended.
We had 42 aswell. Left a lot out there though.

G1032

scrubber72 wrote: »

I always believed that you can only tend a flag on if the player putting is on the green.

I'll have to look it up but I think you can have flag attended from off the green too.............
I'll check it out

scrubber72

Funny thing is on the next hole I hit a chip greenside and it hit stuck pin and went in for birdie:D

G1032

scrubber72 wrote: »

I always believed that you can only tend a flag on if the player putting is on the green.

17-1 - Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up
Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole. If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player’s ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

Note 2: If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player’s knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorised it.

Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until the ball comes to rest. (Moving attended, removed or held-up flagstick while ball in motion – see Rul

scrubber72

Ahh crap it looks like I got it wrong. Rule 17-1 before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole. I will have to keep stum anymore:o

G1032

See decisions on Rule 17-3 at the link below, specifically decision 17-3/2

http://randapublic.loghar.com/flash/decisions/decisions.html

G1032

scrubber72 wrote: »

Funny thing is on the next hole I hit a chip greenside and it hit stuck pin and went in for birdie:D

Happy days. Always nice to chip in. Who needs a putter......!!:)

Daithio9

scrubber72 wrote: »

Played today in a 4ball better ball. Par 3 and my opposites had a birdie putt from just off the green. Player A attended the flag the flag as his partner played his putt. He made the putt but I told them that they had broken a ruling. Words insued and well it just didnt end with chat from next tee to the finish. Now I believed I was correct but is there a new ruling as to this or am I mistaken.
Thx

This is a perfect example of not knowing the rules and pulling some one up incorrectly and looking like a complete knob.

fullstop

scrubber72 wrote: »

Played today in a 4ball better ball. Par 3 and my opposites had a birdie putt from just off the green. Player A attended the flag the flag as his partner played his putt. He made the putt but I told them that they had broken a ruling. Words insued and well it just didnt end with chat from next tee to the finish. Now I believed I was correct but is there a new ruling as to this or am I mistaken.
Thx

Bit of a lesson in that...never pull someone up on a rule unless you know the rule yourself. I'd have been annoyed if I was him.

G1032

scrubber72 wrote: »

hi ron. The player tending the flag held onto it for the entire shot of his partner. Had 42 today.

Daithio9 wrote: »

This is a perfect example of not knowing the rules and pulling some one up incorrectly and looking like a complete knob.

fullstop wrote: »

Bit of a lesson in that...never pull someone up on a rule unless you know the rule yourself. I'd have been annoyed if I was him.

Lads
Scrubber was correct in calling a penalty

See decisions below
1:
If B failed to remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, B is disqualified in both match play and stroke play for a serious breach of Rule 1-2. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4) A must replay the stroke without penalty.

2:
If B's failure to remove the flagstick was for the purpose of preventing A's ball from going beyond the flagstick and not for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, in match play B lost the hole under Rule 1-2 when he failed to remove the flagstick before A's ball reached the hole. The fact that A's ball subsequently struck the flagstick (a breach of Rule 17-3a) is irrelevant since B had already lost the hole.

In stroke play, B incurs a penalty of two strokes under Rule 1-2, and A incurs the same penalty under Rule 17-3a.

3:
If B's failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate, e.g. the flagstick stuck in the socket or B was distracted and did not see A putt, A incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3. B incurs no penalty.


---If it was decision 2 then B incurred a penalty of 2 strokes ( and maybe also player A, since he was his partner) and if it was decision 3 then A incurred a penalty of 2 strokes (and maybe also player B, since he was his partner)
See what Scrubber said: The player tending the flag held onto it for the entire shot of his partner. This, I presume, means the ball wnet into the hole while the flag was attended. If the ball didn't go in the hole, then of course it was a mistake in calling a penalty

fullstop

ronaldochokes wrote: »

Lads
Scrubber was correct in calling a penalty

See decisions below
1:
If B failed to remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, B is disqualified in both match play and stroke play for a serious breach of Rule 1-2. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4) A must replay the stroke without penalty.

2:
If B's failure to remove the flagstick was for the purpose of preventing A's ball from going beyond the flagstick and not for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, in match play B lost the hole under Rule 1-2 when he failed to remove the flagstick before A's ball reached the hole. The fact that A's ball subsequently struck the flagstick (a breach of Rule 17-3a) is irrelevant since B had already lost the hole.

In stroke play, B incurs a penalty of two strokes under Rule 1-2, and A incurs the same penalty under Rule 17-3a.

3:
If B's failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate, e.g. the flagstick stuck in the socket or B was distracted and did not see A putt, A incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3. B incurs no penalty.


---If it was decision 2 then B incurred a penalty of 2 strokes ( and maybe also player A, since he was his partner) and if it was decision 3 then A incurred a penalty of 2 strokes (and maybe also player B, since he was his partner)
See what Scrubber said: The player tending the flag held onto it for the entire shot of his partner. This, I presume, means the ball wnet into the hole while the flag was attended. If the ball didn't go in the hole, then of course it was a mistake in calling a penalty

Where in the OP does he say the flag wasn't removed??

scrubber72

ok so to clarify. The putter was OFF the green. His partner was tending the flag. Putter hits his putt and partner removes flag from hole as ball is making its way to the hole (it was about 6 inches from hole when pin was taken out). Ball goes into the hole. As for being a knob dathai I believed they had broken a rule so sue me for questioning something that I saw as an infringment.

fullstop

scrubber72 wrote: »

ok so to clarify. The putter was OFF the green. His partner was tending the flag. Putter hits his putt and partner removes flag from hole as ball is making its way to the hole (it was about 6 inches from hole when pin was taken out). Ball goes into the hole. As for being a knob dathai I believed they had broken a rule so sue me for questioning something that I saw as an infringment.

Totally uncalled for editing of the post by Daitio9 to add in the 'knob' comment. Pathetic and childish really.

G1032

fullstop wrote: »

Where in the OP does he say the flag wasn't removed??

It doesn't say that but in post #4 he said

'The player tending the flag held onto it for the entire shot of his partner'

I misinterpreted what this meant and thought the ball was holed while that flag was in. My mistake.

G1032

fullstop wrote: »

Totally uncalled for editing of the post by Daitio9 to add in the 'knob' comment. Pathetic and childish really.

Is that kind of thing not to be expected at this stage.........??:)

Daithio9

scrubber72 wrote: »

ok so to clarify. The putter was OFF the green. His partner was tending the flag. Putter hits his putt and partner removes flag from hole as ball is making its way to the hole (it was about 6 inches from hole when pin was taken out). Ball goes into the hole. As for being a knob dathai I believed they had broken a rule so sue me for questioning something that I saw as an infringment.

Ignorance isn't a defence, if you were unsure you should have kept your mouth shut or consulted the rules book that you carry with you in your bag.

Daithio9

fullstop wrote: »

Totally uncalled for editing of the post by Daitio9 to add in the 'knob' comment. Pathetic and childish really.

Bit sensitive are we, if you think the OP doesn't deserve copious amounts of ribbing for his blunder then your obviously one too.

Dr.Silly

that's a pretty basic ruling to be honest,
and you're bang out of order OP.
I hope you're going to apologise to him/her, and not pull someone up like that again without knowing what you're talking about.

scrubber72

Lesson has been learned. I will admit my mistake to my opposites asap and wont call a ruling without a definite knowledge of the rules. Case closed:o

IITYWYBMAD

Daithio9 wrote: »

Ignorance isn't a defence, if you were unsure you should have kept your mouth shut or consulted the rules book that you carry with you in your bag.

How true m'lud...thank god we have the fooking font of all knowledge to but us right when we err. How great it must be to be infallible...

who what when

Daithio9 wrote: »

Bit sensitive are we, if you think the OP doesn't deserve copious amounts of ribbing for his blunder then your obviously one too.

Must be some craic playing a round of golf with you!