banks name not on title deeds

garymc46

I have recently found out that the solicitor who acted for me in the purchase of my home and with whom I had other legal difficulties, did not register the mortgage provider on the title deeds. I have witheld mortgage payments for about 7 months now and havent heard a word from anybody, any suggestions anybody?

Our man in Havana

Get a decent solicitor asap.

Delancey

garymc46 wrote: »

I have recently found out that the solicitor who acted for me in the purchase of my home and with whom I had other legal difficulties, did not register the mortgage provider on the title deeds. I have witheld mortgage payments for about 7 months now and havent heard a word from anybody, any suggestions anybody?

Forgive what may seem to be a silly question but what are the actual consequences of a lender not being registered on property deeds ?
I would have thought the bank would be peeved as opposed to the borrower ?

garymc46

delancey42 wrote: »

Forgive what may seem to be a silly question but what are the actual consequences of a lender not being registered on property deeds ?
I would have thought the bank would be peeved as opposed to the borrower ?

It was the bank who informed me, in the letter they said they were callin in the solicitors undertaking.

Dont know how it will effect me.

Our man in Havana

It would prevent the bank from taking the house if their name was not on the deeds.

garymc46

Haddockman wrote: »

It would prevent the bank from taking the house if their name was not on the deeds.

Because their loan is not 'secured' I think they will move to recoup the mortgage from the solicitors insurance. If I were to die tomorrow the mortgage debt would die with me and they would have no chance to recoup their money in such or similar circumstances?

Victor

garymc46 wrote: »

If I were to die tomorrow the mortgage debt would die with me and they would have no chance to recoup their money in such or similar circumstances?

They would simply recoup it from your estate.

I presume they have a loan agreement that you signed.

Withholding payment seems to be a course fraught with danger and a vist to a solicitor should be immediate.

seamus

I suspect this isn't the "get out of jail free" card that some may think it is, all it will do is obfuscate any court proceedings. The bank are still owed money which they have a legal entitlement to.

Solicitor.

garymc46

seamus wrote: »

I suspect this isn't the "get out of jail free" card that some may think it is, all it will do is obfuscate any court proceedings. The bank are still owed money which they have a legal entitlement to.

Solicitor.

There is a host of other legal problems, for example, despite planners attaching conditions to the planning approval, my solicitor did not look for or inform me that a certificate of compliance was a necessity.

I tried to iron out the problems with the solicitor, to no availe. I then went the Law Society route, aftera protracted process they were non committal and then said if I think there is a problem go to another solicitor.

I then informed the bank of my concerns. They too washed there hands of it.

I decided to withhold mortgage payments. I assume the bank then sought to make sure their 'security' was ok. They ask for deeds and then found out not only did my solicitor mess me about, he didnt note their charge or interest in the deeds!

I only withheld payment to get my problems sorted or get them into court. Thats over 7 months ago. How long is it usually before withholding mortgage payments would result in being before a court?

Shouild I extend goodwill to anybody?

garymc46

Haddockman wrote: »

Get a decent solicitor asap.

Hens teeth and/or endangered species comes to mind. Do you know a decent one I could use?

Our man in Havana

Once a year is up they can take you to court to attempt to repo the house.

garymc46

Haddockman wrote: »

Once a year is up they can take you to court to attempt to repo the house.

Thanks Haddockman, do you think I should have received any notification from the bank in the 7 months of withholding mortgage payments? I am very keen to get this into a court, any court, to hear how my solicitor explain or justify the things he did in this home purchase. (Incidently, I have been unable to move in to the house, its going on 4 years now)

Our man in Havana

The bank would have to go thru certain procedures such as letters, demands, resolution processes in order to take the matter to court. So in your case they may take much longer than 1 year to take the matter to a court.

dermot_sheehan

Note the banks name may not be on the deeds as the mortgage could have been secured by a subsequent deed which the bank has in their possession. A search at the registry of deeds needs to be done to confirm this.

garymc46

gabhain7 wrote: »

Note the banks name may not be on the deeds as the mortgage could have been secured by a subsequent deed which the bank has in their possession. A search at the registry of deeds needs to be done to confirm this.

Thanks Gabhain7, and pardon my ignorance but where would a "subsequent deed" come from? There has been no intervention on my part since the whole thing came to light, neither the bank or original solicitor has approached me or wrote to me. I havent signed or been asked to sign anything. Sorry again I cant afford a solicitor after the debaucle of the last one, - how do I go about doing a search at the registery of deeds?

dermot_sheehan

You could have executed two deeds at the time of the conveyance.

More unsually you may have executed a power of attorney in favour of your solicitor to allow them execute the subsequent deed.

Both these cases would be very unorthodox and unsual, most mortgages in relation to unregistered land are incorporated in the one deed which transfers ownership to the purchaser. I'm assuming that the land is unregistered (i.e. there is no folio number)

A final possibility is that the bank had possession of the deeds as an equitable mortgage, and then registered their mortgage as a lien before equitable mortgages by deposit of deeds were abolished earlier this year.

In any case, it is your banks problem and not yours as to whether their mortgage is properly secure. If you defaulted on your mortgage and it wasn't properly secured, the bank would simply sue you for the money due and then register the judgement as a judgement mortgage against the property.

Contact details for the registry of deeds/land registry at www.prai.ie

garymc46

gabhain7 wrote: »

You could have executed two deeds at the time of the conveyance.

More unsually you may have executed a power of attorney in favour of your solicitor to allow them execute the subsequent deed.

Both these cases would be very unorthodox and unsual, most mortgages in relation to unregistered land are incorporated in the one deed which transfers ownership to the purchaser. I'm assuming that the land is unregistered (i.e. there is no folio number)

A final possibility is that the bank had possession of the deeds as an equitable mortgage, and then registered their mortgage as a lien before equitable mortgages by deposit of deeds were abolished earlier this year.

In any case, it is your banks problem and not yours as to whether their mortgage is properly secure. If you defaulted on your mortgage and it wasn't properly secured, the bank would simply sue you for the money due and then register the judgement as a judgement mortgage against the property.

Contact details for the registry of deeds/land registry at www.prai.ie

I suppose I did the power of attorney option without knowing it.
The land/house was previously registerd ie there was a folio.
What month were equitable mortgages by deposit of deeds abolished?
In January the bank wrote to me to say that "******" bank charge is not registered.
Only yesterday I received a copy letter addressed to my solicitor (whom I dont have any contact with) I think by mistake, where the bank says they have the deeds in their possesion and with no real indication whether things are ok or not

Lorraine_ie

I dont see why you would withold paying the bank if the deeds are not in order. This is a matter you need to take up with your solicitor. The solicitor is the one who makes sure that all documents are in order before advising you to purchase the property, furthermore - as the banks dont have their own solicitors when dealing with these transactions, they are effectively relying on your solicitor to ensure that all is in order and that the relevant security is put into place. This is what the Undertaking is for. Your solicitor gave an Undertaking to the bank to ensure that all was in order and to register the charge and send all of the deeds back to the bank when everything was finalised.

You should get advice from a different solicitor and get them to request the deeds from the bank. They will advise what was done wrong on the file and in that case i would be expecting the old solicitor to pay the fees of the new one for fixing his mistake.

This is not the bank's fault at all from what i can see. They dont know any better. They cant advise you on what to do.

Furthermore, you are risking your credit rating by witholding the mortgage payments. Your solicitor should be the one to blame here.

egan2020

Assuming the OP signed the mortgage deed at the solicitor's office, surely the solicitor can send the mortgage to the Land Registry at this stage and get it entered on the Folio.

Our man in Havana

Not if all the other paperwork not available, or is valid etc. There is no planning compliance cert available in this case.

garymc46

Lorraine_ie wrote: »

I dont see why you would withold paying the bank if the deeds are not in order. This is a matter you need to take up with your solicitor. The solicitor is the one who makes sure that all documents are in order before advising you to purchase the property, furthermore - as the banks dont have their own solicitors when dealing with these transactions, they are effectively relying on your solicitor to ensure that all is in order and that the relevant security is put into place. This is what the Undertaking is for. Your solicitor gave an Undertaking to the bank to ensure that all was in order and to register the charge and send all of the deeds back to the bank when everything was finalised.

You should get advice from a different solicitor and get them to request the deeds from the bank. They will advise what was done wrong on the file and in that case i would be expecting the old solicitor to pay the fees of the new one for fixing his mistake.

This is not the bank's fault at all from what i can see. They dont know any better. They cant advise you on what to do.

Furthermore, you are risking your credit rating by witholding the mortgage payments. Your solicitor should be the one to blame here.

There are a host of other legal problems, no certificate of compliance, breach's of planning conditions etc etc worst nightmare stuff, tried complaining to solicitor, then the law society even made bank aware. Nobody was bothered. Stopped paying the mortgage, then the bank discovered their name was not on the deeds. I have only found out now that the same solicitor requested that changes be made to the deeds.to put himself right again and the land registry acceded to his req or consented?uest. I was neither consulted or notified at all. Should I have been notified

Lorraine_ie

garymc46 wrote: »

There are a host of other legal problems, no certificate of compliance, breach's of planning conditions etc etc worst nightmare stuff, tried complaining to solicitor, then the law society even made bank aware. Nobody was bothered. Stopped paying the mortgage, then the bank discovered their name was not on the deeds. I have only found out now that the same solicitor requested that changes be made to the deeds.to put himself right again and the land registry acceded to his req or consented?uest. I was neither consulted or notified at all. Should I have been notified

No generally the land reg would leave it up to your solicitor to notify you as they have authority to deal with your solicitor directly as opposed to you. This is due to the fact that when registering the title with the land reg, the solicitor would have signed the relevant land registry forms in his capacity as solicitor acting on your behalf.

If the solicitor wants to put the deeds right then leave him to it. It will save you the expense of hiring a new solicitor to fix the problem. Any problems with the folio and the charge shouldnt be too hard to fix. Although i wonder how he plans on putting the planning docs right.

If it is a relatively new building then it shouldnt be too hard to get a duplicate certificate of compliance off the original builders' solicitors, providing one came with the property. All properties built after the 70's would generally have these documents with it. As far as i know, if the property is old, like built before the 70's, then the usual certs of compliance and planning docs are not essential. So i wouldnt worry about this one too much.

You mentioned that there is a breach of planning permission, can you be more specific? was there perhaps an extension or some alteration to the property which was not covered by planning permission? if this is the case then you can apply for retention from the council - this means that they basically approve for you to retain your alteration or extension. This will cover you if you are selling the property in the future as it will form part of the title deeds.

Your biggest problem in this case would be if the council refused retention - this basically means you have to alter the extension or alteration in order for it to come within the planning laws.

I'm just guessing that this is what you mean by breach of planning permission however if you want to elaborate further i can try to help.

In relation to the mortgage deed, i wouldnt worry about this as the bank are the ones to run into difficulty if the charge isnt registered. It doesnt affect you at all. Its the bank's security so let them worry about it.

If there is a problem with the deed then it will affect you so this is something you should certainly get checked out by another solicitor in the future. And the planning docs definitely need to be checked out.

Your certificate of compliance and other planning docs form part of your deeds and if they cannot be provided to the purchaser's solicitors when selling the property, it will definitely be an issue. I would never advise someone to purchase a property without the relevant planning docs.

I might also add that generally when you're signing the loan acceptance document, you will see some special conditions attaching to the loan along with the usual general conditions. Usually one of the special conditions will be to ensure all planning docs are in order and furnish the docs along with the deeds when the matter is finalised. Your solicitor is required to sign this and undertake to comply with these special conditions so from what i can gather, your solicitor appears to be in breach of this undertaking.

If i were you, i would leave the matter with your old solicitor for the timebeing so that he can fix the title as much as possible. Then instruct a new solicitor to take up your deeds and check that all is in order. The reason why i suggest you wait for your old solicitor to fix the problem is that obviously the more work your old solicitor has done then the less work your new solicitor will have to do, and thus your fees will be lower. You've already paid your old solicitor so get as much use out of him as possible.

And i definitely wouldnt be using his firm again.

Delancey

I can see from this thread that Property Conveyancing is not the straightforward ' piece of cake ' I thought it was :eek:

garymc46

Lorraine_ie wrote: »

If the solicitor wants to put the deeds right then leave him to it. It will save you the expense of hiring a new solicitor to fix the problem. Any problems with the folio and the charge shouldnt be too hard to fix. Although i wonder how he plans on putting the planning docs right.

If it is a relatively new building then it shouldnt be too hard to get a duplicate certificate of compliance off the original builders' solicitors, providing one came with the property.

You mentioned that there is a breach of planning permission, can you be more specific?

In relation to the mortgage deed, i wouldnt worry about this as the bank are the ones to run into difficulty if the charge isnt registered. It doesnt affect you at all. Its the bank's security so let them worry about it.

If there is a problem with the deed then it will affect you so this is something you should certainly get checked out by another solicitor in the future. And the planning docs definitely need to be checked out.

Your certificate of compliance and other planning docs form part of your deeds and if they cannot be provided to the purchaser's solicitors when selling the property, it will definitely be an issue. I would never advise someone to purchase a property without the relevant planning docs.

I might also add that generally when you're signing the loan acceptance document, you will see some special conditions attaching to the loan along with the usual general conditions. Usually one of the special conditions will be to ensure all planning docs are in order and furnish the docs along with the deeds when the matter is finalised. Your solicitor is required to sign this and undertake to comply with these special conditions so from what i can gather, your solicitor appears to be in breach of this undertaking.

.

Obviously I am in direct legal confrontation with the old solicitor. To all extents and purposes it appears that he has made a number of serious errors in the processing of this transaction. Given that, would you trust him now to put matters right in regard to such an important issue as properly registering the house? He might need to cover mistakes on his part and which may be detrimental to me later. He knows that we are in legal confrontation, he shouldnt have liased with Land Registry as if I still retained his services., is that legal do you think? He didnt seek my consent or notify me at all about the matter or his liasing with Land Registry is that legal do you think?

The property is a new build. The road outside of it was left in a very poor state and contrary to a Planning condition. It will cost an absolute fortune to put right. I am also in breach of the Countys 'indigenous' clause and the county has put me on notice abot this as well. There are a number of lesser planning issues

Your right I couldnt sell the house without the compliance certificaten neither could the bank if they repossesed and tried to sell it on unless the were to let go for a complete song. I agree he is in breach of undertakings but It appears that it is me who is left with the handling and the task of sorting it out. Thanks again for responding it is help even to get a feel for someone else take on it

Hippo

delancey42 wrote: »

I can see from this thread that Property Conveyancing is not the straightforward ' piece of cake ' I thought it was :eek:

As with many legal matters, it depends....

garymc46

delancey42 wrote: »

I can see from this thread that Property Conveyancing is not the straightforward ' piece of cake ' I thought it was :eek:

If you knew what you were doing or just upfront and honest it would be just a piece of cake. It is solicitors bread and butter never mind a piece of cake

Lorraine_ie

garymc46 wrote: »

Obviously I am in direct legal confrontation with the old solicitor. To all extents and purposes it appears that he has made a number of serious errors in the processing of this transaction. Given that, would you trust him now to put matters right in regard to such an important issue as properly registering the house? He might need to cover mistakes on his part and which may be detrimental to me later. He knows that we are in legal confrontation, he shouldnt have liased with Land Registry as if I still retained his services., is that legal do you think? He didnt seek my consent or notify me at all about the matter or his liasing with Land Registry is that legal do you think?

Regardless of how he appears to have carelessly handled your case, he is still a solicitor and thus has the knowledge to put the file right. Solicitors have the knowledge, some are just too lazy or careless to apply the right amount of time and effort when dealing with a matter. I think because you have paid him already, leave him to it. But definitely get it checked out afterwards. Mistakes with deeds can be fixed.

It is normal practice for a solicitor to deal with the land registry directly without seeking your consent. Your view seems to be that he is not currently acting for you and although you havent issued him with new instructions, he is still carrying out the previous instructions you gave him. His job isnt done until he properly registers the deed and charge, sends the deeds back to the bank and gets confirmation from the bank that the file is in order. he is then discharged from his undertaking to the bank. He can close his file at that stage.

Mistakes happen when it comes to documentation drafted and sometimes you have to go into the land reg and request the deed back in order to fix it. Solicitors wouldnt inform you of this and this is normal practice. Normal lay people panic when they think something is wrong with a deed whereas a solicitor will know that its completely normal. Its just basically to avoid unnecessary panicking and confrontation. Human error happens regardless of what profession you're in. The important part is how you go about fixing it.

garymc46 wrote: »

The property is a new build. The road outside of it was left in a very poor state and contrary to a Planning condition. It will cost an absolute fortune to put right. I am also in breach of the Countys 'indigenous' clause and the county has put me on notice abot this as well. There are a number of lesser planning issues

Is this a new estate? or just one house on its own? The roads would usually be fixed up by the vendor before selling the house and the co. council would then take them over but only when they think the roads are completed. They will however maintain the roads for the future so just check if the roads were handed over to the council, again this letter would be part of your deeds. Did you not ever get an architect to look at this house before you bought it? Or any structural inspection of the property and surrounding areas?

Re; the indigenous clause. Im not 100% sure on this matter as its not something i've ever come across but as far as i know, its only the original owner to has to comply with the clause and then any future purchaser is exempt from it. I could be wrong on that as its a very shady area for me. But again you should take advice on it. You should send a copy of the Council's letter to your old solicitor and the bank.

garymc46 wrote: »

Your right I couldnt sell the house without the compliance certificaten neither could the bank if they repossesed and tried to sell it on unless the were to let go for a complete song. I agree he is in breach of undertakings but It appears that it is me who is left with the handling and the task of sorting it out. Thanks again for responding it is help even to get a feel for someone else take on it

You should be able to take up a copy of the documents that were lodged in the land registry. They charge €25 for a copy of the file. You should ring them about it and see what they need from you. Second of all, ask the bank for a copy of the deeds that were lodged with them. They usually keep copies as far as i know. That way you can go to one of those free legal advice centres and get someone to look at the docs and give you some advice on it. See how bad it is.

Also i would advise requesting a copy of all paperwork from your old solicitor. Make the request under the data protection act as it gives your old solicitor a certain timeframe in which to provide you with the documents and if he doesnt send them on then you can get the rights commissioner involved.

garymc46

Thanks again for your comments Lorraine they are very reasonable and also easy to take in. I dont think I will ever see solicitors in the same light again though. The house is a stand alone development and the road is extensively damaged.

I did not have an architect inspect the house, I stupidly (?) thought that was part of the solicitors brief, or his brief was to tell me to organise such things as an architect viewing

Since this has happened to me I read on the internet somewhere that there was onus on a developer in 1992 legislation for the developer to retain the same architect from the start through to the end of the project, is this view correct in anyway?

Lorraine_ie

garymc46 wrote: »

Thanks again for your comments Lorraine they are very reasonable and also easy to take in. I dont think I will ever see solicitors in the same light again though. The house is a stand alone development and the road is extensively damaged.

I did not have an architect inspect the house, I stupidly (?) thought that was part of the solicitors brief, or his brief was to tell me to organise such things as an architect viewing

Since this has happened to me I read on the internet somewhere that there was onus on a developer in 1992 legislation for the developer to retain the same architect from the start through to the end of the project, is this view correct in anyway?

Your solicitor would normally advise you to arrange an inspection of the property. Sometimes the bank would too if the property is new enough. You should ask the bank if they arranged this. They may have put something in the special conditions of the loan relating to the road.

I've never heard of the case you referred to however i would take that to mean that developers would need to retain the same architect for all of the properties in any one development. I dont see how that would affect you though? Whatever architect was used in the development of your property is irrelevant as long as the appropriate certs were issued. Its up to you to do your own checks on the house though and instruct your own architect. It doesnt have to be the same architect that was instructed when your house was being built.

You should go onto [deleted by mod] to get some ideas as to what a certain solicitor is like before instructing them. Some solicitors would put you off dealing with them in the future but as with everyone, you cant put them all in the same basket. Have a look at the reviews on the site and then make up your mind.

nuac

Reviews on Rate Your Solicitor are anonymous and cannot be relied upon.

djk1000

I still don't really get why you're withholding payments from the bank? They didn't cause this. If you do get your wish and end up in court, it will be for a repossession order, no amount of giving out about your solicitor is going to change the fact that you owe the bank money.

If the solicitor screwed up, take them to court yourself, keep making payments on the mortgage because your just racking up interest and achieving little.

Maximilian

OP if you are withholding loan repayments on the basis of non-registration of the mortgage, you are are taking a very stupid risk, believe me. I can't stress this enough.

Lorraine - This is not a legal advice forum, so please do not engage in that. Also don't peddle RYS.com again, it's a cesspit of defamation from cranks. Anyone who would rely on that site is an idiot.

garymc46

djk1000 wrote: »

I still don't really get why you're withholding payments from the bank? They didn't cause this. If you do get your wish and end up in court, it will be for a repossession order, no amount of giving out about your solicitor is going to change the fact that you owe the bank money.

If the solicitor screwed up, take them to court yourself, keep making payments on the mortgage because your just racking up interest and achieving little.

A solicitor tried to get the case file from the original solicitor but he has steadfastly refused to handover the file. He has claimed to be seriously ill to all authorities but I see him and daily and he is fit and healthy looking. The new solicitor I had says he cant initiate any action at all without the case file. Obviously I dont want to keep paying for something I cant own due to the mistakes/error of the first solicitor. Any more comments?

Our man in Havana

I doubt the bank would prevail with an application to repossess if the mortgage is not properly registered, hence the lack of correspondence.

Mary Hairy

garymc46 wrote: »

A solicitor tried to get the case file from the original solicitor but he has steadfastly refused to handover the file. He has claimed to be seriously ill to all authorities but I see him and daily and he is fit and healthy looking. The new solicitor I had says he cant initiate any action at all without the case file. Obviously I dont want to keep paying for something I cant own due to the mistakes/error of the first solicitor. Any more comments?

A complaint should be made to the Law Society. They can apply to the High Court for an order directing the handover of the file.

dermot_sheehan

This has gone far down the legal advice road