Cameras shift power balance to thugs

Finnbar01

Interesting article in the Sindo today.

AS the original big social networking site Bebo heads towards closure it will have left, somewhere in the recesses of the internet, brutish and revolting images of Irish hooligans.

The effect, according to senior gardai, is that young beat gardai are constantly aware that their every action in dealing with a public order incident is being recorded.

Assaults on gardai are at an all-time high. Yet, asked what would happen if a garda struck back, one officer said: "Good night and God bless," meaning that it would be an end of the officer's career, or that that is the perception.

The gouger," as one long-serving officer in Dublin observed last week, has "lost respect for the peeler". He, like many of his generation, also subscribed to the non-politically correct notion that the removal of the height and bulk requirements has contributed to this breakdown in the relationship between the gardai and the teenage trouble maker.

And, strangely, it appears that this is regarded as acceptable, even proper, among some of the more academic figures in garda management. Last year, amid historic levels of assault on gardai, management issued an edict that from then on the Garda Siochana was to be referred not as a "force" but a "service". In the same weird management-speak, the public are referred to as "customers" or "end users".

I blame p*ss poor parenting. BTW, who actually makes up Garda Management?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/cameras-shift-power-balance-to-thugs-2228022.html

Thought that article was a piece of crap. Talking about the likes of Lugs Brannigan in the 60's and jumping straight to today. Bashing people up is not the answer to dealing with what goes on today. And most of the the people likely to be videoing us doing our jobs will come from every walk of life.

charlemont

had dozens of run ins with the cops before i copped myself on, there is a lot i dont like about the way the gardai siochana is run, but at the same time from my own experiences with them, i think most cops are no different from anyone else, other countries have far worse cops, the thing about the height and bulk i disagree with as all cops no matter what size have a reasonable good level of fitness and strength, more so then some skinny heroin addict, people disrespect the cops for a variety of reasons which have much more to do with government policy on drugs than anything else....

Traumadoc

I think guards should have personal cameras on them at all times, it may make some judges a little less likely to release some offenders with a slap on the wrist when they see what the perpetrators are really like.

It would also make writing up a statement a bit easier, and less open to question from a defending barrister.

deadwood

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I blame p*ss poor parenting.

BTW, who actually makes up Garda Management?

I blame the parents too. If they'd made me study harder, I could have been a bingo caller.

As for the Management question? They make it up as they go along, going forward.

PCPhoto

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think guards should have personal cameras on them at all times, it may make some judges a little less likely to release some offenders with a slap on the wrist when they see what the perpetrators are really like.

It would also make writing up a statement a bit easier, and less open to question from a defending barrister.

great idea about personal cameras - but it would only result in the gougers friends blocking/breaking camera first before they went on - personally I think the gardai should be allowed to beat the sh1t outta them....but you'd get civil rights activists calling for heads to roll...and chances are a very small number of gardai would abuse the ability.

(I'm not a garda or emergency services personnell nor dont want to ever be one - the people they encounter are just scumbags of the lowest order.)

nogoodnamesleft

I think the height requirement should be re introduced in as well as a more stringent physical tests for new and currently serving gardai.

For example some police forces and military require members to pass a physical assesment each year. Failure to do so results in that member effectively being told to shape up and given the adequate time to do so, failure to do so results in that member being discharged. For example a requirement for female members is to run a mile in 8mins for fitness as well as physical strength tests.

Gardai are and will be placed in harms way and some gardai would struggle to deal with a "gouger" due to there physical size and strength.

As an extreme example some of the footage of the Dublin riots in 2006 a there are varying shape and sizes of gardai on camera. in a suitation like this its ludicrous to expect a 5'3 Garda of a light built to have the same impact as a 6ft well built garda to be able to restore law and order.

nogoodnamesleft

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

As an extreme example some of the footage of the Dublin riots in 2006 a there are varying shape and sizes of gardai on camera. in a suitation like this its ludicrous to expect a 5'3 Garda of a light built to have the same impact as a 6ft well built garda to be able to restore law and order.

Do you think a garda who is 6'2" and 18st is going to fare any better in a situation like that?

All gardaí no matter what their size or sex have to undergo the same physical training and pass the same tests.

cushtac

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

As an extreme example some of the footage of the Dublin riots in 2006 a there are varying shape and sizes of gardai on camera. in a suitation like this its ludicrous to expect a 5'3 Garda of a light built to have the same impact as a 6ft well built garda to be able to restore law and order.

I know several members of what you would consider small stature who made a big impact on gougers that day.

Finnbar01

cushtac wrote: »

I know several members of what you would consider small stature who made a big impact on gougers that day.

Well you know what they say, the smaller the jockey, the bigger the whip or should that be truncheon!

Zambia

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Well you know what they say, the smaller the jockey, the bigger the whip or should that be truncheon!

Its not the size of the dog in the fight , its the size of fight in the dog.

Morpheus

all members of the defence forces have to undergo annual fitness training tests to keep their job, also all members of the full time and reserve forces must complete the same fitness test if they apply for any courses - promotion or otherwise,even if they had only done the test a couple weeks previous for their annual fitness qualification.

This is enforced rigourously.

as many pressups as possible in 1 minute (must get a certain grade based on your age)
For my age the minumum (and lowest grade allowed) was at least 26 i think?

as many situps as possible in 1 minute (must get a certain grade based on your age)
For my age the minumum (and lowest grade allowed) was at least twenty something too.

3.2km run (to be completed in less than X minutes based on age)
(i had to complete it in less than 15 mins)


10km loaded march (to be completed in less than X minutes based on age)
(again in less than 1hr 33mins)

Now with exception for the 10km loaded march (where you carry about 30 pounds in a backpack) these tests could be used by the gardai to weed out the unfit members. you fail you retest, you fail again - bye bye.

Just my 2c

Whitewater-AGS

When I get allowed time for PT in my working day I'll do all the fitness tests they like :cool:

pah

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

When I get allowed time for PT in my working day I'll do all the fitness tests they like

+1

shakin

Defence forces members were also given (at taxpayers expense) fat slimming pills to cut the flab......

Morpheus

were they indeed? first ive heard of this. what makes you think that all members of the defence forces have time allowed to do PT? A lot of this has to be done on your own.

What about the members of the reserves who DONT get time allowed to do PT yet must still pass the SAME fitness tests as the ful timers as well as do their own civvie job??

Shield

Morphéus wrote: »

what makes you think that all members of the defence forces have time allowed to do PT?

Where did he say that?

EDIT: ...and besides, aren't we going very, very off-topic here?

Morpheus

agreed about being off topic, sorry im just keen on the fitness stuff....

original topic... a camera carried by each officer? my opinion is that its a double edged sword and may work against some officers but overall it would definitely be an advantage to show the wider public just how bad some of these people are.

maybe we need to produce an irish version of Cops on RTE !?

Imagine it....

On patrol in Dublins/Corks/Limericks inner city...

A look at the gang attitude sweeping parts of Tuam in galway (some of the threads on that issue are hilarious to read - though not (im sure) for the local residents of course...

Imagine the TV crew running away with the paramedics as scroats torch their ambulance or fire engine...

Podman

As many cameras as possible please.

Their use would highlight the thug's bad behavior, making things clearer and more apparent for the judge in court.

The only way that cameras would shift power balance to thugs is if the garda was acting outside the law, in which case it would be deserved.

The only people who want cameras banned are people who have something to hide.

my 2c

slavetothegrind

I think that the focus here is wrong.

AGS do their job, the court does it's job(maybe) and the door revolves.

I was only in court once ( car tax issue, resolved produced in court ) and i got a harsher judgement than the pratt beside me who started a fight in a chipper and then attempted to assault the arresting Garda!!!!!
300 euro to me, a final warning to him and 50 euro to the poorbox?
So next time he thinks about a bit of rowdiness i'm sure he will remember the consequences:mad:

If anyone is to blame they are in leinster house voted for by the majority out there.
Campaign for more prison space, boot camps for young offenders and a three strike policy.
If we get that i would be surprised if ags were not much more sucessful.

Am not ags or related connected, just pissed off at the crap i see in my city all the time.

ectoraige

In light of recent events, perhaps we should be distributing *more* cameras in the hope the dumber criminals incriminate themselves. :pac:

Scan Man

Cameras (and therefore scrutiny) improve accountability, and by God, every sector of Irish society needs a lot more of that.

As has been said, those who fear scrutiny generally have something to hide. Some cops I've seen (Irish and in other countries) can be very sensitive to the presence of cameras, but if you know the legal limits of job (the correct use of force, and the correct application of legislation) then you've nothing to fear, if you're camera shy on these, then maybe a public job isn't the one for you.

Obviously some eejits will attempt to make false claims using such evidence, and obviously there should are legal protections there to prevent that, although they should be made clearer and more numerous.