170metre CAT5 cable run

Finne1993

Hi folks, hopefully somone here can help me out.
My broadband comes from a wireless provider and I have been enjoying excellent speeds of 7mb for the past 3 years or so. (excellent for me as I live in the sticks and Eircom broadband is only after coming available where I live and its only a 1mb connection I can get).
Problem is the base station where they operate from is approx 6 miles from where I live as the crow flys and a huge tree has bloomed up and out right in line between my radio antenna and the base, my connection is non existant now and I called the company out and they tried for a signal from every part of my house but its to no avail, can't be found.
My only option now is to fit the antenna on a pole which is approx 170 metres away from my house and run the cable through ducting which thankfully is already in place. I know cat5 cable starts loosing signal at around 100 metres in length so I would need some kind of repeater/booster for it half ways through.
Can anyone recommend a particular device? Also do these devices need to be powered from the mains?
Many thanks to anyone who replies.

ttm

Just do it If it works fine - it often does I've had 300m work OK but 150m fail so you just don't know - then no problem, if it doesn't try segmenting the network with another router in the middle of the long run, provided you can get power to it that is.

thegen

Are you trying to run an ethernet signal 170mtr over Cat5 e or is it an antennae signal?

Ethernet will simply not work.

ttm

thegen wrote: »

Are you trying to run an ethernet signal 170mtr over Cat5 e or is it an antennae signal?

Ethernet will simply not work.

And you've tried that a few times yourself rather than just believing the technical specs?

Edit> OP if your going to hard wire this your going to need a box of cable to do the job anyway, so why not try it out the whole box (300m?) by putting a plug on each end and see if this giant rolled up patch cable works. Just put the recieiving box on the table next to your computer and see if you can configure it using the 300m cable if you can then the system will probably work with 170m of cable.

Finne1993

thegen wrote: »

Are you trying to run an ethernet signal 170mtr over Cat5 e or is it an antennae signal?

Ethernet will simply not work.

Its the cable running from the antenna into the house which is then powered by a POE and fed into the wireless router. I assume the POE powers the antenna, I'm not really sure what way it works to be honest but its a very simple set up. Do you think that will work then?

Knasher

I've heard that POE suffers after 50m, after all your dealing with low voltages which aren't exactly great will long transmission, so that might be an additional problem. Do you have and power out there already? If so you might be get away with two extenders running off POE along the line, powered from either side, it might work but not 100%. That or checkout how much fiber optic cable would cost.

Otherwise you might just want to see if you can get in contact with whomever owns the tree and see if they wouldn't mind trimming it a bit.

ttm

Finne1993 wrote: »

Its the cable running from the antenna into the house which is then powered by a POE and fed into the wireless router. I assume the POE powers the antenna, I'm not really sure what way it works to be honest but its a very simple set up. Do you think that will work then?

tbh I'd be far more worried about the POE over 170m than I would the tcp/ip connection, really don't think the POE will work at that length but as I said above get the cable and try it on the bench.

Edit> @ Knasher, agree on the 50m but if you use an active POE connection that uses a higher voltage on the cable (steps it up at one end and down at the other) I've gone well over 50m. Problem is how much power the device being powered uses, lower powered devices (lower current consumption) work better at longer cable lenghts but I've never tried anything over 80m so can't really say. If there was power at both ends I wouldnt think twice about running the ethernet cable on that run. If you can run the CAT5 cable then you can also run a power cable, not ideal side by side but if its your only option then you got to try it.

Finne1993

Thanks for the replies guys.
Trimming the tree is'nt an option, its a giant!! it would be a crane and chainsaw job!!
There are 2 manholes between the pole and my house, the first one is about 50-60 metres from the pole so what I'm thinking of doing now is taking power up to that first one and powering the POE from there and take the remainder of the length down into my house, that would save any need for extenders, what do you think? Its a bit more hassle getting power down the ducting but I think it can be done.

Some_Person

Are there any houses (neighbors etc) near you which have a LOS to the mast? You could setup a wireless relay on their house if they'd let you. Out of interest, who is this WISP? not often you find them offering 7meg.

Finne1993

Some_Person wrote: »

Are there any houses (neighbors etc) near you which have a LOS to the mast? You could setup a wireless relay on their house if they'd let you. Out of interest, who is this WISP? not often you find them offering 7meg.

I could do that as one of my neighbours has the same company and has a LOS no problem but I want my own independent set up as I've 2 PC's hard wired to the router and have the wireless for the laptop.
I'd rather not say who the provider is because all I'm paying for is a 1-2 meg connection and from day one I'm getting 6-7!! Sometimes its up near 10meg! A lot of the neighbours are the same, maybe its a mistake, I'm not really sure but I hope it continues!! Even the upload speed is around 5-6 meg.

Finne1993

Finne1993 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys.
Trimming the tree is'nt an option, its a giant!! it would be a crane and chainsaw job!!
There are 2 manholes between the pole and my house, the first one is about 50-60 metres from the pole so what I'm thinking of doing now is taking power up to that first one and powering the POE from there and take the remainder of the length down into my house, that would save any need for extenders, what do you think? Its a bit more hassle getting power down the ducting but I think it can be done.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

ttm

Finne1993 wrote: »

I could do that as one of my neighbours has the same company and has a LOS no problem but I want my own independent set up as I've 2 PC's hard wired to the router and have the wireless for the laptop.
I'd rather not say who the provider is because all I'm paying for is a 1-2 meg connection and from day one I'm getting 6-7!! Sometimes its up near 10meg! A lot of the neighbours are the same, maybe its a mistake, I'm not really sure but I hope it continues!! Even the upload speed is around 5-6 meg.

No reason you can't just borrow a bit of power and somewhere to mount your own antenna on your neighbours house? So what I am saying is no reason to piggy back his system. Once you have a socket near the antenna end you can pass the signal back via a wireless link if you have LOS to the neighbours house.

If you are still going the manhole route what is the primary purpose of the manholes? If they are drains I'd risk a bit of CAT5 or better still some armoured CAT5 cable down there but wouldn't really want to run a 240V power cable.

If you inject the power at the 2nd manhole you'll need to cut the cable, which could make a big difference to the signal quality down the 170m run. Uncut I'd expect it to work cut I wouldn't be so sure.

So if running the power is no problem Starting at the house I'd go.

Home Computers
v
Switch
v
100m CAT5 and mains power run to ROUTER and POE injector
v
70m CAT5
v
"antenna box" with POE adaptor

Only bit I'd want to test first before running any cable was what the POE injector would provide enough power over 70m so just try it on the desk.

KeRbDoG

Finne1993 wrote: »

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Cheap way, Follow this guys instructions on how to create a DIY POE injector and then a 'extractor' at least that what I would call it.

Where that dude has a camera, replace that with a cheap switch and continue your long cable run.
Note, you will need to keep your mid-way switch dry/non-frozen
The switch you get for the mid-way point, ensure it uses just 5~24V via a Plug/Transformer unit, like this. Most cheap 10/100 switches should come with a transformer like this. Don't attempt to plug around with a switch with an inbuilt transformer.

House                    |Outside|Dry location         |Outside|
End-point--POE-injector--|--//---|POE-extractor--Switch|---//--|End-point
   DC-PSU---/            |       | \-power to switch-/ |       |

Note, voltage from the switches PSU will drop over a long distance so keep the cable from the house-POE-injector to the POE-extractor-Switch as short as possible but long enough to get the spans between the networking equipment to <100m.
I've such a setup powering Linksys WRT54G routers for wireless connections between houses and it works fine, but I'm sure those cable lengths are 30-40m max.

Do the above all at your own risk

ttm

Some more thoughts....

@KeRbDoG this link gives an indication of some of the problems associated with the passive DIY method you linked to above. afaik 20m is OK and in some cases you can get 40m to work but that would be the limit. OP needs 70m min.

OP needs an active POE method, this is a link to the injector part that goes near the mains power plug and heres a link to the power splitter that goes at the mast end. I tend not to believe the 150m claimed but thats double what the OP needs. Obviously you need to get the correct splitter for the voltage of the mast head equipment you are using but many are 12V.

KeRbDoG

ttm wrote: »

Some more thoughts....

@KeRbDoG this link gives an indication of some of the problems associated with the passive DIY method you linked to above. afaik 20m is OK and in some cases you can get 40m to work but that would be the limit. OP needs 70m min.

It really depends on the output power of the AC adapter for the basic switch which yea use. Most times the DC device, in this case the switch can work on a lower voltage than the DC adapter supplies so even if the power level drops over a distance it will still work, kinda a 'suck-it-and-see' cheap idea IMO

btw using the device you linked to, you might prob require a a switch which could work at the standard 802.3af level OR get a adapter to bring the voltage of a 'active' POE injector down to the 5/12V (or more) a switch would need. The cost mounts

Finne1993

I'm only after checking back on this now, I'm not on the net as often as usual for obvious reasons!! I've been awful busy this week and did'nt get round to doing anything just yet, hopefully I'll get it done on Monday or Tuesday, I think I'm going ahead with my original plan, I'm gonna use poly poly cable as a substitute for the CAT5 as its weather resistant and outdoor power cable up the ducting, the manholes are there for telephone connections, we put them in ourselves just in case when the houses were being built so no issues with ownership or anything like that, I can do what I like with them!
Thanks for the replies and help guys, as soon as I'm up and running I'll post again with the results!

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

No reason you can't just borrow a bit of power and somewhere to mount your own antenna on your neighbours house? So what I am saying is no reason to piggy back his system. Once you have a socket near the antenna end you can pass the signal back via a wireless link if you have LOS to the neighbours house.

If you are still going the manhole route what is the primary purpose of the manholes? If they are drains I'd risk a bit of CAT5 or better still some armoured CAT5 cable down there but wouldn't really want to run a 240V power cable.

If you inject the power at the 2nd manhole you'll need to cut the cable, which could make a big difference to the signal quality down the 170m run. Uncut I'd expect it to work cut I wouldn't be so sure.

So if running the power is no problem Starting at the house I'd go.

Home Computers
v
Switch
v
100m CAT5 and mains power run to ROUTER and POE injector
v
70m CAT5
v
"antenna box" with POE adaptor

Only bit I'd want to test first before running any cable was what the POE injector would provide enough power over 70m so just try it on the desk.

Hi, thanks for the feedback and suggestions, I have the cable in place and the antenna on the pole but I'm still getting no joy. Firstly as a test I plugged the 70metre length of Cat5 into the antenna and plugged the other end into the Data/Power port on the POE and a short ethernet cable from the data port into my wireless router and the modem light was flashing intermittently on the router, the internet light never came on but the power light was on as normal on the antenna.
I then plugged the POE in beside the antenna with a short ethernet cable and plugged the 70metre length into the data only and plugged the other end of the 70m into my router and no go either, the modem light never came on, I thought for sure the second one would work. I did try the second set up with 10metre length instead of the 70metre and it worked perfect, I had the laptop with me and I was getting the full speed and all lights lit up on the router as normal so there is no problem on the antenna side. Am I forgetting something? I'm a bit pi**ed off as it won't even work on 70metres, I still have another 100metres to go after that!!!

My plan was:

PC/Laptop
^
Belkin Wireless Router
^
100metre Poly poly Cat5
^
POE powered by 48V transformer
^
70metre Poly poly Cat5
^
Antenna


The POE I have is this one:

NET-POEADAPTSKT
http://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-poe-injector-diy.htm

and its powered with the transformer pictured below it.

ttm

You seem to have missed the point of putting 48 volts on the cable. You regulate the voltage at the far end so you say the 5V or 12V required for the antenna box. The splitter you use is totally passive afaik so your just proving that the antenna will work with 48volts. Note in my link http://store.freenet-antennas.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=320 the input voltage is 48Volt but the output is 12V

But you do need to check that your CAT5 terminations are good, just in case thats part of the problem.

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

You seem to have missed the point of putting 48 volts on the cable. You regulate the voltage at the far end so you say the 5V or 12V required for the antenna box. The splitter you use is totally passive afaik so your just proving that the antenna will work with 48volts. Note in my link http://store.freenet-antennas.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=320 the input voltage is 48Volt but the output is 12V

But you do need to check that your CAT5 terminations are good, just in case thats part of the problem.

Thanks for replying, I'm sorry but I don't quite understand the workings of the whole system.
The way it was installed a few years ago was as follows:

Computer
^
2 metre ethernet cable
^
POE powered with 48V transformer
^
30 metre CAT5 terminated with RJ45's
^
Antenna.

Thats the way this company does all their installations, simple as that, I've seen 7 or 8 exactly the same as mine and all work perfectly and mine did too till that f***ing tree grew up!!

I was trying to recreate the exact same wiring set up albeit with a longer cable run, swapping the 2 metre ethernet cable for 100metres of poly poly and swapping the 30 metre CAT5 for 70metres of poly poly.

Now I know my circumstances have changed since i need these 2 long runs, can you advise me what extra injectors/ splitters or whatever I need and where in the set up to put them in order for this set up to function?

I was fairly meticulous when I terminated the ends of the poly poly and all 8 contacts seemed to be through the cable so I don't believe thats a problem.

Thanks for your help

ttm

Some questions then...

Anything on the antenna unit to indicate the required power? Like 12V 1A for example?

Does the antenna unit have a built a POE adaptor built in? So it takes the powered CAT5 cable directly.

If you have a make or model (if that doesn't give away the ISP) then that would be useful info.

And sorry to be pedantic on this.... if you haven't put a cable tester on the long 70m cable then we don't know if its OK or not. I don't make to many bad terminations but when I do I can't tell by looking a good one from a bad.

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

Anything on the antenna unit to indicate the required power? Like 12V 1A for example?

I'm not sure, sorry I probably should have taken note of the details, I'll investigate further, I might even check it out when I get home later, I'm working at the minute.

ttm wrote: »

Does the antenna unit have a built a POE adaptor built in? So it takes the powered CAT5 cable directly.

Yes, it must have a built in POE adapter as the CAT5 is the only cable that was ever plugged into and it always worked fine.

ttm wrote: »

If you have a make or model (if that doesn't give away the ISP) then that would be useful info.

As above I'll get the details and post them in my next reply, I don't care if it gives away the ISP, I just want internet!!

ttm wrote: »

And sorry to be pedantic on this.... if you haven't put a cable tester on the long 70m cable then we don't know if its OK or not. I don't make to many bad terminations but when I do I can't tell by looking a good one from a bad.

Not at all, you're not being pendantic, you're obviously experienced in this line of work and know a helluva lot more about it than I do.
I tested each individual strand using my co-ax cable tester to make sure there was no cable breakages, voltage passed through them all anyway but the terminations will have to be tested as you say.



Thanks for your help, its much appreciated, I'll post up the details you asked about asap.

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

If you have a make or model (if that doesn't give away the ISP) then that would be useful info.

Its a Proxim Tsunami MP.11 5012-SUR
http://www2.proxim.com/ptmpwimax/tsunamitm-mp11-hs-5012.html

I googled it there and got thousands of results, pretty hard to find what power it takes because theres nothing printed on the antenna regarding this but I found a similar model on the net which was 5volts. I'm really tired now and just wanna hit the sack so I can't search anymore!

Maybe you're familiar with these antennas or you've worked with them before and know the specs, I'm really hoping theres a solution to all this!!

If anyone had seen me outside there now up a ladder on a pole at 3 in the morning, the men in white coats would be on their way for me!! In fact I see them coming now so I'm out of here!!

Thanks again.

ttm

First off I'm guess here - never used one of these units so I'm just reading the spec and seeing what I make of it.

So from the spec sheet pdf we can see the unit is 802.3af compliant (SUR unit) which I think is good news at it defines the amount power the unit requires as being a max of 13W which afaik is well possible over 70m. The wikipedia article has the details of the 802.3af spec. The 802.3af specification is afaik for powering network equipment using std cable installation specifications, so is designed to work with 100m max cable runs.

If you are convinced the cable terminations are OK I'd be thinking maybe the PSU is a bit sub standard so I'd be measuring voltages and working out how much power you are losing in the cable (see the link in my earlier post for how to calculate the power loss idue to the resistance of the cable).

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

First off I'm guess here - never used one of these units so I'm just reading the spec and seeing what I make of it.

So from the spec sheet pdf we can see the unit is 802.3af compliant (SUR unit) which I think is good news at it defines the amount power the unit requires as being a max of 13W which afaik is well possible over 70m. The wikipedia article has the details of the 802.3af spec. The 802.3af specification is afaik for powering network equipment using std cable installation specifications, so is designed to work with 100m max cable runs.

If you are convinced the cable terminations are OK I'd be thinking maybe the PSU is a bit sub standard so I'd be measuring voltages and working out how much power you are losing in the cable (see the link in my earlier post for how to calculate the power loss idue to the resistance of the cable).

So you think now the current set up I have in place might work without adding any extra injectors/splitters/switches?

PC/Laptop
^
Belkin Wireless Router
^
100metre Poly poly Cat5
^
POE powered by 48V transformer
^
70metre Poly poly Cat5
^
Antenna


Just reading back on some of your previous posts you say I needed an active POE as the one I have at the minute is passive and won't work on lengths any longer than 40metres, I take it that scenario has changed now you know the unit is 802.3af compliant?

Most of this stuff on measuring voltages and the like is way over my head, I would'nt where or how to start doing it.

ttm

You have in effect what I would call an "active" POE system. What I mean by that is that your antenna box takes a 40-50Volt input and then regulates that down to the voltage it requires internally. So you don't need the adapor you'd need on some systems at the antenna end as its built in. The advantage of starting with a higher voltage is that the voltage drop is the same no matter the starting voltage. So if you only start with 5V for a 5V system and the resitance of tha cable means a loss of 5V then there's nothing left to power the end unit, but if you start with 48Volt and lose 5V to the resistance in the cable you still have 43Volts left to power your unit. That is a bit over simpistic but might help explain it.

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

You have in effect what I would call an "active" POE system. What I mean by that is that your antenna box takes a 40-50Volt input and then regulates that down to the voltage it requires internally. So you don't need the adapor you'd need on some systems at the antenna end as its built in. The advantage of starting with a higher voltage is that the voltage drop is the same no matter the starting voltage. So if you only start with 5V for a 5V system and the resitance of tha cable means a loss of 5V then there's nothing left to power the end unit, but if you start with 48Volt and lose 5V to the resistance in the cable you still have 43Volts left to power your unit. That is a bit over simpistic but might help explain it.

Ah right, I'm understanding more about this as I go along!

So i'm starting off with 48volts off the transformer, going down a 70metre length of cable, there is obviously going to be a lot of loss but you'd imagine there would be enough to power up the antenna.

Another problem is the run from the antenna to the house which in effect is 170 metres, I dunno how to get around that one!

I'm not going to get working at it again until Monday so I'll check all the connections again and do a bit of experimenting, I suppose that all I can do.

I'm dreading this but this is looking more and more likely a lost cause

Finne1993

ttm wrote: »

You have in effect what I would call an "active" POE system. What I mean by that is that your antenna box takes a 40-50Volt input and then regulates that down to the voltage it requires internally. So you don't need the adapor you'd need on some systems at the antenna end as its built in. The advantage of starting with a higher voltage is that the voltage drop is the same no matter the starting voltage. So if you only start with 5V for a 5V system and the resitance of tha cable means a loss of 5V then there's nothing left to power the end unit, but if you start with 48Volt and lose 5V to the resistance in the cable you still have 43Volts left to power your unit. That is a bit over simpistic but might help explain it.

By chance I got talking to the installer of these systems in my area this evening and explained my predicament and he said it should work no problem once the cable run from either socket of the POE injector is'nt 100 metres as he has installed many like this . He reckons as you pointed out in an earlier post that its likely the cable is'nt terminated correctly and he's giving me a loan of his cable tester on Monday. All going well I'll have some good news to report back with!

Finne1993

At last, I'm sorted, the spark arrived this evening to wire up the power to the manhole and I'm fully up and running now. I actually had it all sorted on Monday evening and tested it with an extension lead from the neighbours house.

It worked almost as described in an earlier post:


PC/Laptop
^
Belkin Wireless Router
^
100metre Poly poly Cat5
^
POE powered by 48V transformer
^
70metre Poly poly Cat5
^
Antenna

With one vital extra! An ethernet switch was added after the POE and that was sufficient to give me perfect signal, as a test I downloaded a few movies and uploaded photos and videos non stop for 4 or 5 hours and no drop outs.

Many thanks to all who replied and offered advice.