Do you think Road Pricing should be introduced here!

jock101

With the advent of the range of new tolls imposed on the Irish motorist in recent months and other penal taxes like VRT, Parking Levies, Car Insurance Levy and probably soon to be a congestion charge in Dublin etc... Do you think Road Pricing should be introduced in the next few years!

Anan1

As an alternative to road tax i'd be all in favour. I run two cars and my driving is almost all off-peak, so it should save me quite a bit.

Lisnagry

Known this country it will be put on top of all the other taxes on motoring

jock101

The Idea was suggested a few years back in the UK, but 2 million people signed an online potistion against it, and the Blair Government sidelined it.
I can't remember exactly what the charge per mile was going to be, but I think it was a fairly large price. 80p a mile?
Its also a very regressive tax on the working poor, as it hits their income far more then high wage earners. As the congestion charge does in London, As I have witnessed with my own eyes. The only privately owned cars you see driving in central London during 7am-6pm are generally Luxury cars. Where the £10 a day charge is nothing to such people, its actually a bargain to keep the streets relatively free of traffic for the movement of the Wealthy??

cyclopath2001

Anan1 wrote: »

As an alternative to road tax i'd be all in favour.

There is no road tax in Ireland.

Done correctly, road pricing would favour people who live near where they work/shop and who choose space-efficient methods of transportation.

jock101

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There is no road tax in Ireland.

Done correctly, road pricing would favour people who live near where they work/shop and who choose space-efficient methods of transportation.

Oh sorry, Motor tax!:rolleyes:

Yeah a tax on the freedom of movement by use of GPS and the weapon of choice of our Fascist Dail, Financial controls! Why not microchip us all and be done with it!

Road pricing, if they get rid of all other motorist related taxes and introduce state car insurance cover for all. But that will never happen just imagine and impose new forms of tax. Or import and imploment nasty foreign idea's thought up in that other Fascist Cabala " Brussels".:mad:

EPM

All road pricing will do is penalize those who need to travel for work. Plus big brother will be watching you...no thanks...

Cookie_Monster

its an expensive and inefficient way of recording tax. think of all the technology that needs to be brought in to do it.

Much simpler would be a fuel tax, does effectivly the same thing, you pay by use not just per annum.

cyclopath2001

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its an expensive and inefficient way of recording tax. think of all the technology that needs to be brought in to do it.

You could leverage the technology to handle speeding tickets and pay-parking. Could also help the Gardia recover stolen vehicles. Voluntary disclosure of te GPS tracks could help customers get cheaper insurance quotes.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Much simpler would be a fuel tax, does effectivly the same thing, you pay by use not just per annum.

True this would discourage inefficient use of fule but it does not tackle the problem of inefficient use of road space. It could also serve to make it more attractive for people to live near where they work and shop, cutting down on imported fuel use.

Theanswers

Cant see it working to well for those of us who live in the country. It's an 8 mile trip into town.

On average I would drive 30-40 miles per day. Prob a tad bit more the some city folk so like the carbon tax it would affect those in the country more!

Not on, nor wont be happening...
So I think you all should forget about it as it wont work!

dr.fuzzenstein

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There is no road tax in Ireland.

Done correctly, road pricing would favour people who live near where they work/shop and who choose space-efficient methods of transportation.

I need to travel over 100 km in total to and from work every day.
Why? because there is zero jobs in my area. I can only just afford it, there is no public transport alternative and if I suddenly had to pay more, I'd have to jack in my job, sell my car and sign on the dole again.
I and many others would gladly take public transport if there was any, but all the greens do is tax us more and more. This has nothing to do with being eco friendly and everything with screwing as much money out of the motorist as possible.
If there was an affordable public transport system and everyone gave up their car, Ireland would be broke within weeks since public transport never makes any money, it never has and it never will.
The government is dependent on people taking their car, drinking, smoking, shopping, buying houses, etc...
It might just the last straw to send the country spiralling into ruin, we're already taking on water as a country and this would be the equivalent to opening the scuttles.

jock101

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I need to travel over 100 km in total to and from work every day.
Why? because there is zero jobs in my area. I can only just afford it, there is no public transport alternative and if I suddenly had to pay more, I'd have to jack in my job, sell my car and sign on the dole again.
I and many others would gladly take public transport if there was any, but all the greens do is tax us more and more. This has nothing to do with being eco friendly and everything with screwing as much money out of the motorist as possible.
If there was an affordable public transport system and everyone gave up their car, Ireland would be broke within weeks since public transport never makes any money, it never has and it never will.
The government is dependent on people taking their car, drinking, smoking, shopping, buying houses, etc...
It might just the last straw to send the country spiralling into ruin, we're already taking on water as a country and this would be the equivalent to opening the scuttles.

Could'nt have put it better myself!:);)

cyclopath2001

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I need to travel over 100 km in total to and from work every day.

It's a sad fact of how people were pushed out of the city by bad planning.

100km commutes are bad for national competiveness. It's clogging up the roads so that goods cost more to delver and it's adding to our imported fuel bill. How do we solve this?

dr.fuzzenstein

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's a sad fact of how people were pushed out of the city by bad planning.

100km commutes are bad for national competiveness. It's clogging up the roads so that goods cost more to delver and it's adding to our imported fuel bill. How do we solve this?

Public Transport, Eco friendly cars, alternative fuels, fuel celled cars that drive on hydrogen and emit water, electric cars, better planning, ah fcuk it, too much hassle, let's just tax those cnuts...

Eric Cartman

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I need to travel over 100 km in total to and from work every day.
Why? because there is zero jobs in my area. I can only just afford it, there is no public transport alternative and if I suddenly had to pay more, I'd have to jack in my job, sell my car and sign on the dole again.
I and many others would gladly take public transport if there was any, but all the greens do is tax us more and more. This has nothing to do with being eco friendly and everything with screwing as much money out of the motorist as possible.
If there was an affordable public transport system and everyone gave up their car, Ireland would be broke within weeks since public transport never makes any money, it never has and it never will.
The government is dependent on people taking their car, drinking, smoking, shopping, buying houses, etc...
It might just the last straw to send the country spiralling into ruin, we're already taking on water as a country and this would be the equivalent to opening the scuttles.

\

agreed, public transport doesnt really work inside the commuter belt either before i bought a car in 2008 I used to get public transport to work , and heres why i bought a car

public transport :
Train €3.00 (Leixlip/maynooth to connolly) , 16a bus €1.80 quays - terenure costs : 4.80 euro / 70-80 minutes
so €9.60 a day (2 hours 20 minutes travelling)

car :

148 euro a month insurance 4.90 a day
177 euro a month repayment 5.90 a day
288 euro a year tax 78c a day
300 euro a year servicing 82c a day
40 euro a week in fuel 5.70 a day

€18.10 a day (40 minutes travelling)

so in exchange for 9 euro im saving 1 hour 40 minutes and sitting next to weirdos on public transport, entirely worth it

jock101

Eric Cartman wrote: »

\

agreed, public transport doesnt really work inside the commuter belt either before i bought a car in 2008 I used to get public transport to work , and heres why i bought a car

public transport :
Train €3.00 (Leixlip/maynooth to connolly) , 16a bus €1.80 quays - terenure costs : 4.80 euro / 70-80 minutes
so €9.60 a day (2 hours 20 minutes travelling)

car :

148 euro a month insurance 4.90 a day
177 euro a month repayment 5.90 a day
288 euro a year tax 78c a day
300 euro a year servicing 82c a day
40 euro a week in fuel 5.70 a day

€18.10 a day (40 minutes travelling)

so in exchange for 9 euro im saving 1 hour 40 minutes , (spending 5.40 an hour to not get the bus) so if with that hour and 40 minutes i saved I could make 5.40 the car would be cheaper, entirely worth it not to deal with the bus

Not forgetting the comfort, efficiency and security you get having your own transport. It well worth the next cost!

Even if motoring cost increase massively in the coming years, Fuel, Tax, Insurance, Tolls etc... . I still wont give up my car. I will just buy something small and affordable to run. Like a Toyota Aygo etc.. or just leave this State.

Eric Cartman

jock101 wrote: »

Not forgetting the comfort, efficiency and security you get having your own transport. It well worth the next cost!

Even if motoring cost increase massively in the coming years, Fuel, Tax, Insurance, Tolls etc... . I still wont give up my car. I will just buy something small and affordable to run. Like a Toyota Aygo etc.. or just leave this State.

personally id just leave the state, i have yet to find a car under 2 litre I would actually like to own , a passat 1.8T is probably the only exception to that and a passat is the physically smallest car I could comfortably live with, i do 40k miles a year so basically need something I can live in

KamiKazi

No.

Abolish motor tax and tolls, and just have a fuel tax. Might get rid of some of the clowns doing school runs in huge SUVs around the city center :rolleyes:

Eric Cartman

KamiKazi wrote: »

No.

Abolish motor tax and tolls, and just have a fuel tax. Might get rid of some of the clowns doing school runs in huge SUVs around the city center :rolleyes:

couldnt be done, if they push diesel any higher its going to kill small firms, we need diesel for trucks and vans and jeeps to actually do work, the clowns doing school runs in those huge SUVs have paid their price in the forms of VRT and the amount of fuel it consumes , dont agree with them, if I could id ban anyone doing under 15k miles a year from owning such a vehicle but they are paying for it, like it or not them buying a 80-100grand car brings the goverment enough money not to load fuel or increase VRT for the rest of us, taxing the fuel instead of the vehicle would just make more people able to afford these large SUV's and only able to afford the fuel for short (school) runs, so it would add to your problems

jock101

KamiKazi wrote: »

No.

Abolish motor tax and tolls, and just have a fuel tax. Might get rid of some of the clowns doing school runs in huge SUVs around the city center :rolleyes:

Something like that operates in New Zealand! An extra 10c on the litre that pays for the other motoring taxe, and they have a similar population to us!:)

KamiKazi

Eric Cartman wrote: »

couldnt be done, if they push diesel any higher its going to kill small firms, we need diesel for trucks and vans and jeeps to actually do work, the clowns doing school runs in those huge SUVs have paid their price in the forms of VRT and the amount of fuel it consumes , dont agree with them, if I could id ban anyone doing under 15k miles a year from owning such a vehicle but they are paying for it, like it or not them buying a 80-100grand car brings the goverment enough money not to load fuel or increase VRT for the rest of us, taxing the fuel instead of the vehicle would just make more people able to afford these large SUV's and only able to afford the fuel for short (school) runs, so it would add to your problems

Of course it could.

The price added to fuel would equate to what you'd be paying in road tax and tolls

Eric Cartman

KamiKazi wrote: »

Of course it could.

The price added to fuel would equate to what you'd be paying in road tax and tolls

the current system is a level playing field , you can drive whatever car you want as long as you can pay for it , and you can drive whatever mileage you want at a reasonable cost no matter the car ,

the new system would mean the person with a range rover or a jag they use for the school run is paying less than the rep in a ford focus or the van driver in a berlingo

galwaytt

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the current system is a level playing field , you can drive whatever car you want as long as you can pay for it , and you can drive whatever mileage you want at a reasonable cost no matter the car ,

the new system would mean the person with a range rover or a jag they use for the school run is paying less than the rep in a ford focus or the van driver in a berlingo

No it's not ! I test drove a new Merc E-Class coupé today - part of Father's Day present, M-B were doing a Drive & Dine thing, so dinner included test drive in Merc of your choice. Loved it. E250, cheap to run on juice, and 300 p.a. on tax. Yet 60k to buy.

I then got into my 17yr old car, worth 9k, which costs 1290 to tax. There's nothing fair, nor equitable about that. The people who could most afford a 60k car get better mpg, and 1/4 the car/road/whatever tax, I do ? You need a reality check you do......

OP - we already have 'road pricing'. And at €1290 p.a. my car/road/motor tax, is it. That and the tolls on all the new roads - I drove to Drogheda last weekp-end and incurred 4 tolls. Can I get a refund on my car tax for that, seeing as it's double-taxation ?

So, a fuel tax I could live with, and as business, hey, all they have to do is allow trade users (traders/business) to reclaim it against income tax. Problem solved.

McSpud

Remove motor tax and add it to the price of fuel. It would obviously lead to huge increase in the price of fuel but is the easiest pay as you use system. Once you already have a car the current system does not discourage usage.

Voodoomelon

The fact that people who drive to work or drive for work will be hit more is somewhat irrelevant, what is relevant is that they use the roads more and hence should pay more. The fact that there may be no public transport in your area and you have no other choice is also irrelevant, this is about making the taxation system fairer.

Issues with housing, public transport, rent etc are all seperate matters.

Why should someone who drives 5000 miles a year with a large engined car pay 4 times more motor tax than someone who drives 40000 miles a year in a 1.9 diesel?

Yes it hits the traveller harder, but is that not the fairest way of doing it? Because as the system is set up right now, it is completely unfair. Not everyone who pays over €1000 a year motor tax is a millionare, infact very few are I would imagine. And even the CEO who does 40,000 miles a year in his S600 Mercedes is going to be paying a massive amount of tax with fuel based tax, and rightly so.

If the tax is on fuel, you are paying for your consumption, you are paying for your CO2 emissions and you are paying for your road usage. The system is fairer and not top heavy, loading the larger engined cars with ridiculous costs.

I pay 7 times more tax than a Micra of the same era, despite the fact I emit less than twice the C02 and only do 9.5k miles a year. Wheres the fairness in that?

jock101

Voodoomelon wrote: »

The fact that people who drive to work or drive for work will be hit more is somewhat irrelevant, what is relevant is that they use the roads more and hence should pay more. The fact that there may be no public transport in your area and you have no other choice is also irrelevant, this is about making the taxation system fairer.

Issues with housing, public transport, rent etc are all seperate matters.

Why should someone who drives 5000 miles a year with a large engined car pay 4 times more motor tax than someone who drives 40000 miles a year in a 1.9 diesel?

Yes it hits the traveller harder, but is that not the fairest way of doing it? Because as the system is set up right now, it is completely unfair. Not everyone who pays over €1000 a year motor tax is a millionare, infact very few are I would imagine. And even the CEO who does 40,000 miles a year in his S600 Mercedes is going to be paying a massive amount of tax with fuel based tax, and rightly so.

If the tax is on fuel, you are paying for your consumption, you are paying for your CO2 emissions and you are paying for your road usage. The system is fairer and not top heavy, loading the larger engined cars with ridiculous costs.

I pay 7 times more tax than a Micra of the same era, despite the fact I emit less than twice the C02 and only do 9.5k miles a year. Wheres the fairness in that?

If you can afford to buy and run a vehicle with a large cc engine, 2 Litres or more. You should pay for for the privilege. As for this CO2 emissions crap, that has yet to be fully proven. As I for one and many others dont believe CO2 is really damaging the Planet. This is just the Greens bunkum, that Fianna Fail use as an excuse to screw the Serfdom classes for more tax. Road pricing would just be another system to screw more tax and control peoples freedom of movement. Even if a car was invented that ran on water, there would be some kind of tax or water levy imposed. Even when the Hydrogen fuel cell become widely used in the next decade or so, that emits water and oxygen. They will slap some other tax on to replace CO2?????????:mad:

Victor

Eric Cartman wrote: »

\

agreed, public transport doesnt really work inside the commuter belt either before i bought a car in 2008 I used to get public transport to work , and heres why i bought a car

public transport :
Train €3.00 (Leixlip/maynooth to connolly) , 16a bus €1.80 quays - terenure costs : 4.80 euro / 70-80 minutes
so €9.60 a day (2 hours 20 minutes travelling)

car :

148 euro a month insurance 4.90 a day
177 euro a month repayment 5.90 a day
288 euro a year tax 78c a day
300 euro a year servicing 82c a day
40 euro a week in fuel 5.70 a day

€18.10 a day (40 minutes travelling)

so in exchange for 9 euro im saving 1 hour 40 minutes and sitting next to weirdos on public transport, entirely worth it

Or do this for less than €2 per day. http://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Calculator/Ticket-Calculator/

ART6

jock101 wrote: »

With the advent of the range of new tolls imposed on the Irish motorist in recent months and other penal taxes like VRT, Parking Levies, Car Insurance Levy and probably soon to be a congestion charge in Dublin etc... Do you think Road Pricing should be introduced in the next few years!

I would be very surprised if it isn't, and expect that all of the other motor taxes will remain in place with, wherever possible, taxes being applied to taxes. Political greed, cheating, lying and incompetence have not died out in this country as a result of the recession. In fact, since the government cannot even get close to balancing it's books but hasn't the will to cut it's costs appropriately, more taxes like this are inevitable.

MrAbc

Isn't it all a question of deciding what you're trying to achieve with the taxation system?

Surely the point of it all, ideally, is to contribute towards:

a) paying for the provision of the roads & supporting infrastructure (inc maintenance/new roads/traffic gardai/etc/etc)
b) discouraging usage that is problematic (inc pollution reduction/congestion avoidance)
c) encouraging or stimulating certain policy objectives (eg job-related usage is good, public transport is preferred, enable non-urban society to function etc)


Anyway, I'd say the overheads of Road Pricing (GPS hardware? user maintenance? reporting system? fraud?!) would negate any benefits.

Maybe simple fuel taxing is the most equitable choice (use more, pay more) provided you exempt business usage to some degree.

Automatically you are discouraging high-mileage for cars that are inefficent. (You would need to replace a typical current rate of €600/year with, ballpark, €600/(15000miles@40mpg) == €600/1700Litres == 35cent/Litre )

If you *still* want to discourage even low-milage of supercars(unsafe?), SUVs and Hummers(anti-social?), etc then you've got to tax everything again based on BHP or Power-to-weight or gross weight, or probably all three, in fact.

Okay, so your shiny new system is something like:
1) VAT/VRT on the purchase price [catch the money bags]
2) 35cent/Litre fuel usage [catch the road hogs]
3) scaled tax on power-to-weight ratio [catch the sportscars; easy on estates]
4) scaled tax on gross weight [catch the lumbering SUVs, Hummers]
5) scaled tax on BHP [really catch the supercars; easy on common sense]
You could set a zero rate thresholds for 3), 4) and 5) based on a family saloon, say, 140HP, 1400kg, ie 0.1 HP/kg and anything below those specs.
[Maybe even give discounts on your fuel tax if your Pwr, Wgt, pwr/wgt are below those thresholds. But do you want to encourage huge masses of tiny, light-weight, slow, depression inducers??!!]

That's one messy system though!! LOL

KamiKazi

jock101 wrote: »

If you can afford to buy and run a vehicle with a large cc engine, 2 Litres or more. You should pay for for the privilege. As for this CO2 emissions crap, that has yet to be fully proven. As I for one and many others dont believe CO2 is really damaging the Planet. This is just the Greens bunkum, that Fianna Fail use as an excuse to screw the Serfdom classes for more tax. Road pricing would just be another system to screw more tax and control peoples freedom of movement. Even if a car was invented that ran on water, there would be some kind of tax or water levy imposed. Even when the Hydrogen fuel cell become widely used in the next decade or so, that emits water and oxygen. They will slap some other tax on to replace CO2?????????:mad:

Maybe you should stop posting until you pull your head out of your arse

Anan1

KamiKazi wrote: »

Maybe you should stop posting until you pull your head out of your arse

Maybe you should rebut his points with a valid counter-argument?