Is an FG breakaway party likely?

democrates

Not an easy option for those who would start it, but is this the only credible option left to those who openly opposed Kenny as they contemplate the next election campaign?

Biggins

No. The history of the P.D.'s is enough to scare any FG thinkers away.

InchicoreDude

Why would they break away? They would then be potentially the 4th biggest party in Ireland. Currently, they are in the 2nd biggest. Dont think there is any real incentive for them to do this.

sceptre

While the notion of it being better to rule in hell than serve in heaven (I'm using those two terms pretty broadly in the current Irish and FG political climate based on the way things are) has its attractions, I very much doubt that dissenting FG people will do anything of the sort. They've had tight leadership rifts in the past, as have other Irish political parties. That's how political parties roll.

fifth

I'm still going to give my vote to FG based on Bruton staying in the party and in the hope that he'll still have some kind of input into economic policy.

As attractive as Labour might seem on the outset right now, I'm not going to cave.

democrates

sceptre wrote: »

They've had tight leadership rifts in the past, as have other Irish political parties. That's how political parties roll.

I think that'll be the dissenters pitch right there when the issue is raised.

Pride Fighter

I'd like to see it happen. I'd say they would be a centre right party like the German Free Democratic Party, very strong on the economy and socially liberal. They would not be like the PD's who were very weak on the economy as they did not have the political talent. Hopefully it does happen, Fine Gael showed its true colours today as a country bumpkin, gombeen party with the behaviour of many of their members on the six one news. What I want to see is Richard Bruton lead this party as his talents are needed in the next government.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Pride Fighter

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thats not why, I'd like to see Irish politics become more like European politics, where so-called minor parties have sizeable percentages, no party gets an overall majority and are usually progressive cause they have to compromise and generally deliver good consensus politics. Like Germany, the Netherlands and Austria.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Breezer

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd like to see it happen. I'd say they would be a centre right party like the German Free Democratic Party, very strong on the economy and socially liberal. They would not be like the PD's who were very weak on the economy as they did not have the political talent. Hopefully it does happen, Fine Gael showed its true colours today as a country bumpkin, gombeen party with the behaviour of many of their members on the six one news. What I want to see is Richard Bruton lead this party as his talents are needed in the next government.

...

I'd like to see Irish politics become more like European politics, where so-called minor parties have sizeable percentages, no party gets an overall majority and are usually progressive cause they have to compromise and generally deliver good consensus politics. Like Germany, the Netherlands and Austria.

For the first time in quite a while, I am in complete agreement with you Pride Fighter

I've emailed the 'gang of 10' to this effect. I don't expect any reply other than "thank you for your email," and unfortunately I don't think it will happen. But it would be the best outcome, in my opinion. We badly need a new party, free of historical/loyalty baggage, composed of competent individuals.

democrates

Breezer wrote: »

For the first time in quite a while, I am in complete agreement with you Pride Fighter

I've emailed the 'gang of 10' to this effect. I don't expect any reply other than "thank you for your email," and unfortunately I don't think it will happen. But it would be the best outcome, in my opinion. We badly need a new party, free of historical/loyalty baggage, composed of competent individuals.

Well done though, costs nothing to offer ideas for consideration.

It would take a ballsy operator to put loyalty to the people ahead of loyalty to the party, or it's leader. They'd lose some diehard FG votes but pick up some new support in their constituencies.

I wonder though would there be much of a policy difference between FG and the hypothetical new party, but even if there isn't maybe the perception of competence alone could fill their sails...

Breezer

democrates wrote: »

I wonder though would there be much of a policy difference between FG and the hypothetical new party, but even if there isn't maybe the perception of competence alone could fill their sails...

Not initially, if it were set up by the dissident FG front bench. These are the people behind current FG policy, after all. Bruton's idea was to shift the focus of the policy, not the basic ideas. In time, however, policy would diverge, simply because they would no longer be involved in FG, a party whose policies have varied wildly depending on who's been running the show over the years.

democrates

Breezer wrote: »

Not initially, if it were set up by the dissident FG front bench. These are the people behind current FG policy, after all. Bruton's idea was to shift the focus of the policy, not the basic ideas. In time, however, policy would diverge, simply because they would no longer be involved in FG, a party whose policies have varied wildly depending on who's been running the show over the years.

Or perhaps sooner if they decided to differentiate themselves. Like the PD's or Greens they could be king-makers in forming the next government and punch above their weight on policy. Would be very interesting...

Breezer

democrates wrote: »

Or perhaps sooner if they decided to differentiate themselves. Like the PD's or Greens they could be king-makers in forming the next government and punch above their weight on policy. Would be very interesting...

I was more thinking that FG policy would end up shifting focus without the likes of Bruton and Varadkar in there. Still all pie in the sky though, regardless

Fuhrer

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Thats not why, I'd like to see Irish politics become more like European politics, where so-called minor parties have sizeable percentages, no party gets an overall majority and are usually progressive cause they have to compromise and generally deliver good consensus politics. Like Germany, the Netherlands and Austria.

People actually want consensus politics as a first choice?


Good lord, when I vote for someone its because I want their values and their policies to be the only ones in play.


You dream of a society where you vote for someone and have them give up their values so they can get into power?

Pride Fighter

Fuhrer wrote: »

People actually want consensus politics as a first choice?


Good lord, when I vote for someone its because I want their values and their policies to be the only ones in play.


You dream of a society where you vote for someone and have them give up their values so they can get into power?

Its called being a democrat. Something I'm proud to be.

Fuhrer

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Its called being a democrat. Something I'm proud to be.

You'd be proud if Labour went into coalition with Fianna Fail next election with FF having control of economic issues with Labour in charge of social and environmental issues?

Pride Fighter

Fuhrer wrote: »

You'd be proud if Labour went into coalition with Fianna Fail next election with FF having control of economic issues with Labour in charge of social and environmental issues?

Aint gonna happen. Gilmore has stated that Labour will not enter coalition with Fianna Fail.

Fuhrer

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Gilmore has stated that Labour will not enter coalition with Labour.

Good lord, how fractious

Pride Fighter

Fuhrer wrote: »

Good lord, how fractious

Long day;)

Sulmac

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Thats not why, I'd like to see Irish politics become more like European politics, where so-called minor parties have sizeable percentages, no party gets an overall majority and are usually progressive cause they have to compromise and generally deliver good consensus politics. Like Germany, the Netherlands and Austria.

+1

Consensus-based politics is one of the reasons those three countries aren't completely screwed economically!

Bob Z

Sulmac wrote: »

+1

Consensus-based politics is one of the reasons those three countries aren't completely screwed economically!

really?

Wide Road

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Aint gonna happen. Gilmore has stated that Labour will not enter coalition with Fianna Fail.

What age are you? Remember a certain John Bruton telling the Irish people he wouldn't talk to, never mind going into govt with DL during the Rainbow era. Low and behold he forms a govt shortly after with DL. Charlie once said coalitions don't work, yet formed one with the PDs. Gilmore will take power if it comes his way, don't forget that. The last week should have told you about the politicians in this country. Perks and Mercs are the the aim and goal of all the elected in Dail Eireann. The Brutons are the obvious examples of this.

Kai

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd like to see it happen. I'd say they would be a centre right party like the German Free Democratic Party, very strong on the economy and socially liberal. They would not be like the PD's who were very weak on the economy as they did not have the political talent. Hopefully it does happen, Fine Gael showed its true colours today as a country bumpkin, gombeen party with the behaviour of many of their members on the six one news. What I want to see is Richard Bruton lead this party as his talents are needed in the next government.

+1
Who was the FG guy who came out after the vote and shouted "Up Mayo"? He looked like he should have been on the sideline of an GAA match or kicking ****e at the local cattle mart rather than someone who could potentially have an influence on the future of the country.

As a potential FG voter that glimpse into the members of the party and how they act in front of the Cameras is not filling me with confidence. A little professionalism is badly needed.

Sulmac

Bob Z wrote: »

really?

Very much so.

Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, UK - majoritarian systems.

Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland - consensus systems.

Spot the difference?

Bear in mind I'm talking here about the political system, not the electoral system. Italy has many parties that form permanent coalitions, but once one coalition gets into power it does whatever the hell it wants without listening to the opposition (sound familiar?).

The consensus model attempts to, as far as possible, seek unanimous agreement among all parties (or among the main parties). Of course, this isn't always possible but the difference is that they at least try.

This results in a more forward-thinking parliament (e.g. if the opposition get in at the next election, they won't "undo" everything done by the last government, like the Conservatives in Britain are doing now), who are genuinely trying to do what is best for the country - not what is best for them come the next election.

jmayo

democrates wrote: »

Not an easy option for those who would start it, but is this the only credible option left to those who openly opposed Kenny as they contemplate the next election campaign?

Dear God do people posting around here have any idea of the Irish political scene.
If people that did not agree with leaders who were defeated in heaves all left their respective parties we would have scores of parties by now.

It has only really happened once and that occurred after numerous heaves had failed, not just one.
Also the ones leaving and the ones staying were not of a mind to settle differences internally.
Also the primary one leaving, O'Malley, was a much better politcal than the defeated guy yesterday.

They always bury the hackets for a while to be dragged out again if someone decides to a make a move further down the road.
FG have been hurt by this and one thing that may bind them together, at least for a while, is that mutally assured destruction means no one gets ministerial cars.
And before some says that their party are different I say boll****.
A ministerial car (or bicycle) is the ultimate achievement, it means they have a higher status to their local electorate so they can probably have easier time getting re-elected, they get more personal wealth and lastly they may actually get to do something constructive which was why supposedly they entered politics in the first palce.
Notice how I put that last

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Thats not why, I'd like to see Irish politics become more like European politics, where so-called minor parties have sizeable percentages, no party gets an overall majority and are usually progressive cause they have to compromise and generally deliver good consensus politics. Like Germany, the Netherlands and Austria.

Big difference is those countries have electorates and citizens that would not tolerate the sh*** we not alone condone but readily endorse at the next election.

oh and before some smart ar** states it is all the rural boggers, they should exam the histories of deputies haughey, ahern, lawlor, burke, o'dea who were all re-elected in totally urban constituencies.

Fuhrer wrote: »

People actually want consensus politics as a first choice?


Good lord, when I vote for someone its because I want their values and their policies to be the only ones in play.


You dream of a society where you vote for someone and have them give up their values so they can get into power?

Hey isn't that the greens ?
They give up their values so that they can get into power

Kai wrote: »

+1
Who was the FG guy who came out after the vote and shouted "Up Mayo"? He looked like he should have been on the sideline of an GAA match or kicking ****e at the local cattle mart rather than someone who could potentially have an influence on the future of the country.

As a potential FG voter that glimpse into the members of the party and how they act in front of the Cameras is not filling me with confidence. A little professionalism is badly needed.

Was that Mellett by any chance ?
Friendly guy but no genius and often losses the run of himself.
On the other hand I can see the fact that we don't win much and so every chance to shout Up Mayo when victorious in the capital is taken with both hands.

Again I have to ask how many posters on here really have an idea how Irish political parties work ?
All the parties are full of bloody grass root eejits.
Watch election result nights to see them whooping and hollering like extras in a spaghetti western.
Hell watch the South Dublin brigade hoisting good old georgie boy the day he won.
Watch any of the ffers or indeed Labour back room teams.

Saying that there are a lot of cute hoors and sly operatives involved in Irish politics who would fillet you as quick as they would look at ya.

BTW Irish political party members are just a subset of the Irish electorate and looking at our decisions over the last 20 years we the electorate don't come out much better than the yokos on the TV.

Coillte_Bhoy

Wide Road wrote: »

What age are you? Remember a certain John Bruton telling the Irish people he wouldn't talk to, never mind going into govt with DL during the Rainbow era. Low and behold he forms a govt shortly after with DL. Charlie once said coalitions don't work, yet formed one with the PDs. Gilmore will take power if it comes his way, don't forget that. The last week should have told you about the politicians in this country. Perks and Mercs are the the aim and goal of all the elected in Dail Eireann. The Brutons are the obvious examples of this.

Ridiculous and childish generalisation.

Wide Road

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ridiculous and childish generalisation.

Think so? Thanks for your detailed explaination!!

Coillte_Bhoy

Wide Road wrote: »

Think so? Thanks for your detailed explaination!!

Yes i do think so. Do you know every individual TD and what their personal beliefs are, what their policial view are etc etc etc? One example...Joe Higgins a td in the last dail took the average industrial wage form his salary and the rest went to his party. I believe the sinn fein td's do something similar.

democrates

Thing is if you pay peanuts you can end up with a lot of monkeys, commensurate with responsibilities would be the ticket.

Pride Fighter

Kai wrote: »

+1
Who was the FG guy who came out after the vote and shouted "Up Mayo"? He looked like he should have been on the sideline of an GAA match or kicking ****e at the local cattle mart rather than someone who could potentially have an influence on the future of the country.

As a potential FG voter that glimpse into the members of the party and how they act in front of the Cameras is not filling me with confidence. A little professionalism is badly needed.

Reminds me of the Fianna Fail gombeens on David Davin Powers shoulder a few years back.