Customer won't pay. Is my retaliation legal?

Libertine2002

Hi all,

I hope I'm posting in the right place.

Anyway, a customer got me to design a brand and create a website for his company. He has paid a deposit but the balance of around 2,000 euros is proving difficult to get. It now seems he's refusing to pay and keeps saying "the cheque is in the post" when it clearly isn't. Now my plan is to take down his website and put up a notice stating that the company haven't paid for the work and that any use of their logo will be in breach of copyright since it hasn't been paid for. So anyone who visits the website will be shown that the company are dodgy. This will hopefully get the customer to pay up quicker.

Am I within my rights to do this? A kind of name-and-shame approach. Or is this technically libel?

littleredspot

Don't know if its legal or not, but it's a great idea

nellyshark

If you are hosting the website I think you would be better off suspending the account rather than a name and shame approach.

What payment terms have you set out in the contract?

IMHO just an approach reflects badly on you, I know that you want to receive the full amount (which you deserve) but there are better methods than

put up a notice stating that the company haven't paid for the work and that any use of their logo will be in breach of copyright since it hasn't been paid for.

What you can do is tell them you are seeking legal advise

RoadKillTs

I did this before OP. Designed a website. Waited months for payment. Then took the site down and was paid by the end of the day.

dbran

Hi

As a person who has been also stung by non payaers I totally understand your frustration but be very carefull!!!

You just cant do this. You can be sued for defamation or damages if it turns out that he looses work as a result of the notice you put up on his site defaming him.

As a developer, putting up defamatary stuff on another persons site without their permission has to be a serious serious no-no, even if they have not paid you.

You are best to just take down his site and email him that you have done so.Wait for his reaction with hopefully a cheque.

Hope this helps


Dbran

BlackEdelweiss

My friend was in a similar situation, he designed a site, the guy couldent pay so my friend now owns half of the guys business. He maintains the site for free and gets half the profits, it was the guys only option if he wanted his idea to come alive.

Libertine2002

I'll definitely start by just taking down the site. I'm hosting it as well. If that doesn't work I still think a name and shame would get me my cheque! I'd no doubt need to be careful with my choice of words but I just need to know if the customer has any rights in this case.

Libertine2002

dbran wrote: »

Hi

As a person who has been also stung by non payaers I totally understand your frustration but be very carefull!!!

You just cant do this. You can be sued for defamation or damages if it turns out that he looses work as a result of the notice you put up on his site defaming him.

As a developer, putting up defamatary stuff on another persons site without their permission has to be a serious serious no-no, even if they have not paid you.

You are best to just take down his site and email him that you have done so.Wait for his reaction with hopefully a cheque.

Hope this helps


Dbran

Just saw this one. Interesting stuff. I thought there'd be a chance of this being the case alright. If anyone can elaborate further on this it'd be great.

Vanbis

nellyshark wrote: »

If you are hosting the website I think you would be better off suspending the account rather than a name and shame approach.

What payment terms have you set out in the contract?

IMHO just an approach reflects badly on you, I know that you want to receive the full amount (which you deserve) but there are better methods than

I would be in agreement here. I would certainly take the website down asap but i wouldn't go doing anything else that may reflect badly on yourself.

Vanbis

Libertine2002 wrote: »

I'll definitely start by just taking down the site. I'm hosting it as well. If that doesn't work I still think a name and shame would get me my cheque! I'd no doubt need to be careful with my choice of words but I just need to know if the customer has any rights in this case.

OP what ever you decide be careful and keep us updated. You could always post that it is down due to maintenance or something.

bullpost

Alternatively go the small claims court route?

nice1franko

I'd suspend all email accounts too.

He might miss them more than the site.

Vanbis

nice1franko wrote: »

I'd suspend all email accounts too.

He might miss them more than the site.

Oh thats evil....

tricky D

Do not name and shame.

It exposes you to defamation action. The client, rightly or wrongly, has a right (Constitutional) to a good name and it's up to you to prove otherwise, which will be difficult in the absence of a contract. Even with a contract you really don't want the legal hassle and expense.

Your goal is to get the money and naming and shaming will just antagonise the situation making it less likely that you'll get paid.

It also can do significant damage to your own reputation.

In future, make sure you have a contract* with clear delivery and payment milestones and get between 30 or 50 percent up front.

(*Assumption - Doesn't sound like you have a contract)

Just take the site and email down and say nothing.


@bullpost afaik/iirc Small Claims Court only deals up to €1500 and would need to be based on a contract, otherwise it's just own person's word against another's.

PeakOutput

i assume you arranged the hosting and domain and all that stuff for him and if he hasnt paid then he dosnt own the site r the hosting or the domain so you can do what you want with it

afaik he can only sue for defamation if its untrue

murrayp4

It's not defamation if what's said is true.
Having said that the best route is to take the site down without the non-payment notice. Customer is more likely to pay this way.

MacGyver

what about redirecting the site to his competition? probably best not to redirect his emails there tho

dbran

bullpost wrote: »

Alternatively go the small claims court route?

Hi

Small claims court does not deal with non payment of an invoice. It will only deal with a failure to deliver the service. So it is no help in this situation.

Kind Regards

dbran

Libertine2002

MacGyver wrote: »

what about redirecting the site to his competition? probably best not to redirect his emails there tho

Wasn't Magyver famous for getting himself out of difficult situations?! Doing justice to your namesake there! Thats quite clever.

I've just sent an email to them there now stating that if there is no cheque in the morning I'll be removing the site and suspending the emails. I've been very nice in the email stating that I'm looking forward to restoring our working relationship as soon as possible but that this is my companies standard procedure. I'll hold off on the notice on the website for now and see how I get on. Give it a week or so maybe before I try some new tactics.

celticbest

Take the site down and wait to see if he contacts you, if there is much business coming through the site I don't think you will have to long a wait.......

dbran

murrayp4 wrote: »

It's not defamation if what's said is true.

Hi

The point is you don't really know whether it is true or not.

Any number of things could have happened which could have resulted in the cheque not arriving. The client lying through his teeth and saying he posted it when he actually has not is only one of the possibilities.


Kind Regards

Dbran

DubTony

If the account is suspended what do visitors to the web site see?

I've been to a few web sites in the past where all I got was a message along the lines of

This site is closed
If you are the site owner, please contact accounts@hostingcompanyname.com

This says it all.

AndyJB

Evening,

I've just sent an email to them there now stating that if there is no cheque in the morning I'll be removing the site and suspending the emails. I've been very nice in the email stating that I'm looking forward to restoring our working relationship as soon as possible but that this is my companies standard procedure.

That's the best thing you can do for the moment.

I'll hold off on the notice on the website for now and see how I get on.

Don't go down that route!

Give it a week or so maybe before I try some new tactics.

Don't let it run for more than 48hrs. Then print of copies of what ever agreement you may have along with a copy of the invoice and plonk yourself in his reception / office and ask/demand payment in person.

I'd imagine he won't be doing any more business with you so don't be overly worried about dropping his custom.

Best of luck.

maxwell smart

A friend of mine was in your customers position. he just put the payment on the long finger for close to 5 months. Eventually, after several promises and no payment, his website went blank.

Bizzare coincidence, when he paid the money by bank transfer the next day, the site came back online.

nellyshark

OP, dont forget to keep us updated

oldat31

I have read through all but I hav'nt read if the OP has a contract signed by both partys.

If there is not contract then the op's client does not have to pay. He only has to pay for the hosting.

Has your client got a copy of the website files?

If he has and there is no contract, then you'l be flogging a dead duck.

He can just host it with another host.

nellyshark

oldat31 wrote: »

I have read through all but I hav'nt read if the OP has a contract signed by both partys.

If there is not contract then the op's client does not have to pay. He only has to pay for the hosting.

Why do you say that?

oldat31 wrote: »

Has your client got a copy of the website files?

If he has and there is no contract, then you'l be flogging a dead duck.

He can just host it with another host.

So you are suggesting that if the client has the website files then he can freely host them with another provider having absolutely no entitlement to them?

oldat31

nellyshark wrote: »

Why do you say that?




So you are suggesting that if the client has the website files then he can freely host them with another provider having absolutely no entitlement to them?

The hosting is a service that is continuous and if he wants the site online he has to pay for hosting on a yearly term, so if he pays for a year he gets just a year. If he stops paying the service stops.

If there is no contract signed stating terms of agreement on ownership of the site files then how is anyone to know who is the owner?

91011

tricky D wrote: »

Do not name and shame.

It exposes you to defamation action. The client, rightly or wrongly, has a right (Constitutional) to a good name and it's up to you to prove otherwise, which will be difficult in the absence of a contract. Even with a contract you really don't want the legal hassle and expense.

.

The truth is the ultimate defense of any defamation action.

- I wanted to get a refund of deposit for something that a company did not complete the contract and gave them 3 days warning that I would be standing outside their premises with leaflets outlining how I was treated. They treathened an injunction, I sent their solicitor back a single line with above statement and was refunded in full the same day. (handy to have a family member as a senior counsel:D)

tricky D

91011 wrote: »

The truth is the ultimate defense of any defamation action.

While this is true, the burden of proof is on the accuser and proving such truth can be very expensive (unless you know someone like a senior counsel).

Besides, the goal is to get the money and actions which are unlikely to help in that endeavour are best avoided.

was.deevey

For 2k i'd be calling out to him with a pen in hand for him ready to sign the cheque.

I second the idea of placing a "account suspended - please contact billing@yourname.com to resume service" as a placeholder page...

They'll get the message pretty fast.

Do you have access to the domain registrar as well ? - i'd be changing passwords from there..

I would not block their emails, but would change the account passwords ..Might take a few days for them to notice the site.

Two Grand is a hell of a lot of money to not have a contract of some sort drawn up though.

Ash.J.Williams

Libertine2002 wrote: »

Hi all,

I hope I'm posting in the right place.

Anyway, a customer got me to design a brand and create a website for his company. He has paid a deposit but the balance of around 2,000 euros is proving difficult to get. It now seems he's refusing to pay and keeps saying "the cheque is in the post" when it clearly isn't. Now my plan is to take down his website and put up a notice stating that the company haven't paid for the work and that any use of their logo will be in breach of copyright since it hasn't been paid for. So anyone who visits the website will be shown that the company are dodgy. This will hopefully get the customer to pay up quicker.

Am I within my rights to do this? A kind of name-and-shame approach. Or is this technically libel?

I would say that action would make you look very unprofessional, suspend the website with a generic notice and that would be enough for people to conclude the bill wasn't paid.

Duckjob

DubTony wrote: »

If the account is suspended what do visitors to the web site see?

I've been to a few web sites in the past where all I got was a message along the lines of

This site is closed
If you are the site owner, please contact accounts@hostingcompanyname.com

This says it all.

I think this is the best solution.

- It's obviously not any technical problem with the site.
- It's obvious that the person controlling the site has deliberately shut it down.
- It's obvious that they want to speak with the site owner before they restore it.

Virtually everybody can read between the lines and see the true situation yet you're not publishing anything that you could be taken on up legally.

I've had to take this exact approach before with a particular client. The site had a business application and was ticking along nicely for the owner. I had been asking nicely (too nicely) for what was due to me for nearly 4 mths- when I finally took this step I had a cheque 2 days later.

Some people are just arseholes when it comes to paying up.

Joey the lips

Suspend the web site. Do not retaliate. especially in this manor as damage to his business could give him grounds to actually sue you....

Great idea though....

Evil Phil

bullpost wrote: »

Alternatively go the small claims court route?

AFAIK the small claims court is only for private individuals to take companies to court and don't deal with business to business issues, although I think that may be changing.

I'd say take is site down, put up a holding page simply stating "Site Suspended", send a final demand for payment within 10 working days also explaining that the site has been suspended. If you aren't paid by day 11 get a solicitor.

John368

I find this thread very interesting as it demonstrates the advantages of being a host. You are in a very powerful situation. I am owed many 1000's and will probably get most of it eventually, but being in a situation when you can simply suspend someone else's account at a click of a mouse as a lever to getting payment seems like business heaven to me. It is a powerful situation and of course with poer comes responsbility.

Unless you have in your terms and conditions that you will suspend the account if all payment is not received, you may leave yourself open to legal difficulties. So a solicitor specialising in IT might be a good idea.

As for naming and shaming - well, do not even think about it if you want a future in business.

Think of the future. If your terms and conditions do not have a clause about suspension of account due to non-payment, then start changing your terms and conditions now so that you will be sure about any future clients payments. As for this outstanding account, try the bed-side manner first. No threatening letters, just pay them a personal visit. If they do not want to pay the full amount, then suggest 5 stage payments and get 5 cheques post-dated by each of the following 5 months. It is likely that you will be one of many creditors seeking payment so you will have to be patient and keep your cool.

John

stvcummins

OP, for future projects try this line in your Terms & Conditions.

Website will not go live until full payment has been received.

Make this clear at the start of the project & look for stage payments. What I do is get 50% up front & the remainder on completion. Saying that "it's easier on cashflow for both parties" seems to work for me.

If a project starts to drag out I'll phone, speak to the client & say that I'm going to invoice for the work to date & that when they are ready to complete the project we'll tie up all loose ends, get the paperwork & payments sorted & get the site live. I'll then send an email to back up the conversation & to have a record of it in case anything does get tricky down the road. By keeping it conversational & making the phonecall they don't get a surprise invoice & ring you screaming & shouting, & you're protecting the time investment that you've made & hopefully get paid.

It still amazes me though how people try to avoid paying for design work & almost get insulted when it comes to payment. I try to be friendly & personable with clients but as soon as it comes to contracts of work & payments I just remind them of company policy & that seems to work 90% of the time. You'll always get the odd chancer but you have to be firm & polite.

RobBaxter

Libertine2002 wrote: »

Wasn't Magyver famous for getting himself out of difficult situations?! Doing justice to your namesake there! Thats quite clever.

I've just sent an email to them there now stating that if there is no cheque in the morning I'll be removing the site and suspending the emails. I've been very nice in the email stating that I'm looking forward to restoring our working relationship as soon as possible but that this is my companies standard procedure. I'll hold off on the notice on the website for now and see how I get on. Give it a week or so maybe before I try some new tactics.

How are you getting on now? Did they pay you? Did you remove the site? Any more correspondance??

Libertine2002

stvcummins wrote: »

OP, for future projects try this line in your Terms & Conditions.

Website will not go live until full payment has been received.

Make this clear at the start of the project & look for stage payments. What I do is get 50% up front & the remainder on completion. Saying that "it's easier on cashflow for both parties" seems to work for me.

If a project starts to drag out I'll phone, speak to the client & say that I'm going to invoice for the work to date & that when they are ready to complete the project we'll tie up all loose ends, get the paperwork & payments sorted & get the site live. I'll then send an email to back up the conversation & to have a record of it in case anything does get tricky down the road. By keeping it conversational & making the phonecall they don't get a surprise invoice & ring you screaming & shouting, & you're protecting the time investment that you've made & hopefully get paid.

It still amazes me though how people try to avoid paying for design work & almost get insulted when it comes to payment. I try to be friendly & personable with clients but as soon as it comes to contracts of work & payments I just remind them of company policy & that seems to work 90% of the time. You'll always get the odd chancer but you have to be firm & polite.

Good advice! Well, good news. I took down the site and suspended the emails and got my cheque within 2 days. They actually called me this morning looking for more work to be done and all seems fine. The owner of the company hates me but his office workers know a good service when they see it so our working relationship is still intact, even though I had to get to get heavy with the bossman. Payment up front or a credit card number from now on though any time I'm dealing with them!

Just want to say a massive thanks to anyone who contributed. I'm a wiser man as a result!

stvcummins

Libertine2002 wrote: »

Good advice! Well, good news. I took down the site and suspended the emails and got my cheque within 2 days. They actually called me this morning looking for more work to be done and all seems fine. The owner of the company hates me but his office workers know a good service when they see it so our working relationship is still intact, even though I had to get to get heavy with the bossman. Payment up front or a credit card number from now on though any time I'm dealing with them!

Just want to say a massive thanks to anyone who contributed. I'm a wiser man as a result!

Great News. Glad it's all been sorted out for you.

dbran

Hi

Great news and congratulations on getting paid. Good to see it worekd out in the end.

Kind Regards

dbran

dormant_co_acc

Here's hoping the cheque clears....

aidan.connolly

Well done. Nice to see a happy ending

FarmerGreen

Nailed the bugger's goolies to the table.
Great result.
Beans on toast for sunday dinner no more.