Immigration Law

Tim Robbins

My mother was telling me that there was some new EU law which made it much harder for Nigerians to gain access to the EU even if they were married to a EU citizen.

I thought this was nonsense and tried to point it out to here.

I asked her to tell me the exact law and of course she couldn't. She got a bit tetchy as I presume she was afraid I'd call her a racist.

But I was wonderinf if anyone could clarify?

marco_polo

Not really EU law as such but an additional restriction by the State in our transposition of the relevant directive into legislation.

My understanding of it is that a foreign national who is the married to a non-Irish EU citizen, has an automatic right to live and work in Ireland only if they were lawfully resident in another Member State previously.

EU Directive

Irish SI

barrackali

This additional restriction was needed as many Nigerian/Pakistani etc nationals were utilising arranged marriages to get around visa requirements.

Tim Robbins

barrackali wrote: »

This additional restriction was needed as many Nigerian/Pakistani etc nationals were utilising arranged marriages to get around visa requirements.

Can you send a link to information on the additional restriction?

Scofflaw

Deleted off-topic handbagging. The forum is for the discussion of politics, not people's relationships with their mothers.

moderately,
Scofflaw

djpbarry

barrackali wrote: »

This additional restriction was needed as many Nigerian/Pakistani etc nationals were utilising arranged marriages to get around visa requirements.

Can we put some figures on "many"? My missus is British-Pakistani and the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis I have met through her, be they in Ireland or the UK, are married to other Pakistanis.

Personally, I think these restrictions, in addition to those additional work permit restrictions introduced in June 2009, are simply being used to scapegoat non-EU nationals and appease the "too many foreigners" brigade.

olawunmi

I am a British Citizen, presently living with my wife in Nigeria. My wife (Nigerian) recently applied for a visa to travel with me to Ireland on a Holiday. Her application was refused on the grounds that I was not exercising my 'Treaty Rights' presently in Ireland and that I had not shown any intention to. This refusal is quite baffling. Can anyone explain please?

Lt J.R. Bell

olawunmi wrote: »

I am a British Citizen, presently living with my wife in Nigeria. My wife (Nigerian) recently applied for a visa to travel with me to Ireland on a Holiday. Her application was refused on the grounds that I was not exercising my 'Treaty Rights' presently in Ireland and that I had not shown any intention to. This refusal is quite baffling. Can anyone explain please?

What are your activities in Ireland right now? Did you provide sufficient evidence

If you are not in Ireland now, but intend to go there, you and wifey have the right to come and do nothing for 3 months. (or job searching) after that, get a job or be self employed

What documents were given?

olawunmi

thanks for response, I submitted my British passport ,marriage certificate, statement of account, my wife indicated that she will be accompanied my her husband on the holiday

Lt J.R. Bell

olawunmi wrote: »

thanks for response, I submitted my British passport ,marriage certificate, statement of account, my wife indicated that she will be accompanied my her husband on the holiday

Where is the evidence of employment or offer of a job or evidence of job searching (EU Citizen)? Or evidence of self employment

olawunmi

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Where is the evidence of employment or offer of a job or evidence of job searching (EU Citizen)? Or evidence of self employment

We only intend coming to Ireland for 2 weeks holiday we are not staying for good do we still need evidence of employment or job searching

olawunmi

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Where is the evidence of employment or offer of a job or evidence of job searching (EU Citizen)? Or evidence of self employment

We only intend coming to Ireland for 2 weeks holiday we are not staying for good do we still need evidence of employment or job searching

Pro Hoc Vice

olawunmi wrote: »

We only intend coming to Ireland for 2 weeks holiday we are not staying for good do we still need evidence of employment or job searching

Then you are not exercising treaty rights. So while you have every right to enter Ireland for a holiday your wife is a visa required national and then domestic rules and laws apply not EU law.

Lt J.R. Bell

olawunmi wrote: »

We only intend coming to Ireland for 2 weeks holiday we are not staying for good do we still need evidence of employment or job searching

NO.

An EU Citizen and their spouse/partner don't need to do a thing for the first 3 months, Article 6 of Directive 2004/38EC. Once the three months expires, Article 7 of the Directive shall kick in

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Then you are not exercising treaty rights. So while you have every right to enter Ireland for a holiday your wife is a visa required national and then domestic rules and laws apply not EU law.

Nonsense, Nonsense ! Gross miss statement of the law .A travesty , a travesty . Why can't basic research be under taken ?

EU law still applies, not domestic laws

EU law DOES NOT prevent Member States from insisting on visas! Just, EU law makes it next to impossible to refuse a visa, once mere documents of proof of compliance with Article 6 and 7 of Directive 2004/38 EC are adhered to. Less documents. The Irish Visa section on the website, specifically asks whether one is coming to visit with an EU family members (less documents required) or alone/where EU law does not apply, more documents.

Provided that there are sufficient funds, and proof of same, that is.

For the First 3 months
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

"Article 6
Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid
passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.


There after,

Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) – are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host
Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal
purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
– have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the
relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as
they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member
State during their period of residence; or
30.4.2004 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 158/
_______________________________________________________________________________
94
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions
referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).
2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not
nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State,
provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph 1(a), (b) or (c).
3. For the purposes of paragraph 1(a), a Union citizen who is no longer a worker or self-employed
person shall retain the status of worker or self-employed person in the following circumstances:
(a) he/she is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;

(b) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after having been employed for more
than one year and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office;

(c) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or after having become involuntarily unemployed during the first twelve months and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office. In this case, the status of worker shall be retained for no less than six months;

(d) he/she embarks on vocational training. Unless he/she is involuntarily unemployed, the retention of the status of worker shall require the training to be related to the previous employment



What precise documents did the OP sent in? That decision , may look challengeable

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Nonsense, Nonsense ! Gross miss statement of the law .A travesty , a travesty . Why can't basic research be under taken ?

Yes, the girl needs a visa, but, EU law still applies, not domestic laws.

Provided that there are sufficient funds, and proof of same, that is.

For the First 3 months
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

"Article 6
Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid
passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.


There after,

Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) – are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host
Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal
purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
– have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the
relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as
they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member
State during their period of residence; or
30.4.2004 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 158/
_______________________________________________________________________________
94
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions
referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).
2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not
nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State,
provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph 1(a), (b) or (c).
3. For the purposes of paragraph 1(a), a Union citizen who is no longer a worker or self-employed
person shall retain the status of worker or self-employed person in the following circumstances:
(a) he/she is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;

(b) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after having been employed for more
than one year and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office;

(c) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or after having become involuntarily unemployed during the first twelve months and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office. In this case, the status of worker shall be retained for no less than six months;

(d) he/she embarks on vocational training. Unless he/she is involuntarily unemployed, the retention of the status of worker shall require the training to be related to the previous employment



What precise documents did the OP sent in? That decision , may look challengeable

EU law does not apply simply because he and his wife are coming for a two week holiday so while your post is very ingormative it ignores a simple fact.

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

EU law does not apply simply because he and his wife are coming for a two week holiday so while your post is very ingormative it ignores a simple fact.

First of all, the post that you quoted, had being edited. It added a part concerning the Irish Visa Website and the different approaches taken when EU law does apply. Go check it out.

You do not know what you are talking about. You have not got a clue. Refrain from making any further negligent and moronic comments about an area that you are clueless about.

I on the other had do know what I am talking about.


The Original Poster is British. Therefore, that person is an EU Citizen.

Articles 20 and 21 of TFEU permits him and his family, the opportunity to travel to another Member State, subject to conditions.

Exercising of Treaty Rights include not just working,job searching or self employment, or student with funds, but , also people who are not economically active eg Elderly English Toffs retiring to Sunny Spain

Article 7 of Directive 2004/38

"have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State"



Again, for the readers, benefit, Article 6 of the Directive Applies.

Want case law with that , brah?



How in God's name did you conclude to such utter nonsense. ? So, you or I are not exercising our Treaty Rights when flying from Ireland to Ibiza/Rome etc for a 2 week holiday ?

Good luck with backing that argument up!

Please ,persist in this nonsense, I always enjoy watching people make idiots of themselves.



You ignore a couple of huge facts

(1) Article 6 of Directive 2004/38 EC, Articles 20 and 21 TFEU
(2) You do not know what you are talking about




As for the OP, in the unlikely event that he is in doubt, contact Solvit , they are EU law watch dogs

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

First of all, the post that you quoted, had being edited. It added a part concerning the Irish Visa Website and the different approaches taken when EU law does apply. Go check it out.

You do not know what you are talking about. You have not got a clue. Refrain from making any further negligent and moronic comments about an area that you are clueless about.

I on the other had do know what I am talking about.


The Original Poster is British. Therefore, that person is an EU Citizen.

Articles 20 and 21 of TFEU permits him and his family, the opportunity to travel to another Member State, subject to conditions.

Exercising of Treaty Rights include not just working,job searching or self employment, or student with funds, but , also people who are not economically active eg Elderly English Toffs retiring to Sunny Spain

Article 7 of Directive 2004/38

"have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State"



Again, for the readers, benefit, Article 6 of the Directive Applies.

Want case law with that , brah?



How in God's name did you conclude to such utter nonsense. ? So, you or I are not exercising our Treaty Rights when flying from Ireland to Ibiza/Rome etc for a 2 week holiday ?

Good luck with backing that argument up!

Please ,persist in this nonsense, I always enjoy watching people make idiots of themselves.



You ignore a couple of huge facts

(1) Article 6 of Directive 2004/38 EC, Articles 20 and 21 TFEU
(2) You do not know what you are talking about




As for the OP, in the unlikely event that he is in doubt, contact Solvit , they are EU law watch dogs

So a two week holiday will mean the OP is resident in Ireland! If the OP came to look for work or for work or had sufficient resources, yes the spouse must be given a stamp 4EU. While Article 8 should be considered, there is no EU right as not resident or intending residency. Please refrain from the insulting posts it's not necessary. Of course of EU national from Say UK was resident in Spain with spouse with a residency permit that Spouse could easily travel to Ireland on a Holiday but as spouse is not resident in the EU not traveling to reside in Ireland then in MHO the relevant EU rules do not apply.

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So a two week holiday will mean the OP is resident in Ireland! If the OP came to look for work or for work or had sufficient resources, yes the spouse must be given a stamp 4EU. While Article 8 should be considered, there is no EU right as not resident or intending residency. Please refrain from the insulting posts it's not necessary. Of course of EU national from Say UK was resident in Spain with spouse with a residency permit that Spouse could easily travel to Ireland on a Holiday but as spouse is not resident in the EU not traveling to reside in Ireland then in MHO the relevant EU rules do not apply.

It gives him permission to enter and stay in Ireland without any condition for up to 3 months. Plain simple English. Mere visits andnlead to staying longer, to getting a job to registering to work and reside...

No one said that he didn't have sufficient resources, so..... If he has,he already meets Article 7 (one wonders what the visa lot have though)

The phrase to keep here, as stated by the courts, ad nauseum ; "such restrictions has the potential of discouraging free movement " (gets used in free movement of workers, goods and services
.)

the motive, at this stage is not hugely relevant so long as there funds. To refuse a visa to enter Ireland, even for a holiday, means, that you are potentially interfering with the EU spouses right to enter and reside, if he wishes to, and get or find a job if he so desires, because his spouse can't enter. Breach of EU law, baby

You travel to another EU State, you are excercising your Treaty Rights. You and your spouse /partner /deponent children are to be treated no different to the citizens of the host state, irrespective of nationality

Whether it's just for one day, 14 days or 29 days, Article 6 applies. 90 days or more Article 7 applies.


NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A STAMP 4EU FAM! (they could if they have documents etc)


They won't need it as they won't be staying long enough. Should they wish to do so however, for whatever reason, and so long as they comply with Article 7, then they can apply for it after three months. Until then, she doesn't have to do anything but have her visa (from Irish Embassy)

She will be entitled to a visa from the Irish Embassy because EU law says that her husband and herself can come here without any restrictions and condition for three months. In practice most people will have a job in place and or funds. but job is not essential đ


Now, unless you are going to cite case law, cough Mrax case,cough, refrain from your ill informed statements or rebut what I said with actual authority

As he is British, it is inappropriate, at this time, ie before 3 months, to assume anything other than the parties would be in compliance with the immigration laws

I would say, this op story doesn't sound right. They are idiots at the Embassys but not that stupid.

Either way, he should look into the reasons for refusing the Visa. Something sounds odd

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

It gives him permission to enter and stay in Ireland without any condition for up to 3 months. Plain simple English. Mere visits andnlead to staying longer, to getting a job to registering to work and reside...

No one said that he didn't have sufficient resources, so..... If he has,he already meets Article 7 (one wonders what the visa lot have though)

The phrase to keep here, as stated by the courts, ad nauseum ; "such restrictions has the potential of discouraging free movement " (gets used in free movement of workers, goods and services
.)

the motive, at this stage is not hugely relevant so long as there funds. To refuse a visa to enter Ireland, even for a holiday, means, that you are potentially interfering with the EU spouses right to enter and reside, if he wishes to, and get or find a job if he so desires, because his spouse can't enter. Breach of EU law, baby

You travel to another EU State, you are excercising your Treaty Rights. You and your spouse /partner /deponent children are to be treated no different to the citizens of the host state, irrespective of nationality

Whether it's just for one day, 14 days or 29 days, Article 6 applies. 90 days or more Article 7 applies.


NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A STAMP 4EU FAM! (they could if they have documents etc)


They won't need it as they won't be staying long enough. Should they wish to do so however, for whatever reason, and so long as they comply with Article 7, then they can apply for it after three months. Until then, she doesn't have to do anything but have her visa (from Irish Embassy)

She will be entitled to a visa from the Irish Embassy because EU law says that her husband and herself can come here without any restrictions and condition for three months. In practice most people will have a job in place and or funds. but job is not essential đ


Now, unless you are going to cite case law, cough Mrax case,cough, refrain from your ill informed statements or rebut what I said with actual authority

As he is British, it is inappropriate, at this time, ie before 3 months, to assume anything other than the parties would be in compliance with the immigration laws

I would say, this op story doesn't sound right. They are idiots at the Embassys but not that stupid.

Either way, he should look into the reasons for refusing the Visa. Something sounds odd

1 do the INIS know about the husband 2 did they refuse based on non engagement of EU treaty rights. You have made the assumption I know nothing about such things when I simply stated that there is no engagement on treaty rights based on the OP.

There is ways to engage such rights but that would be legal advice, which is not allowed on the forum. If the OP wishes he can seek advice from a qualified person who can properly advice based on all the facts. BTW can you cite case law stating that an EU national's spouse has a stand alone right of entry for a holiday under EU law.

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

1 do the INIS know about the husband 2 did they refuse based on non engagement of EU treaty rights. You have made the assumption I know nothing about such things when I simply stated that there is no engagement on treaty rights based on the OP.

There is ways to engage such rights but that would be legal advice, which is not allowed on the forum. If the OP wishes he can seek advice from a qualified person who can properly advice based on all the facts. BTW can you cite case law stating that an EU national's spouse has a stand alone right of entry for a holiday under EU law.

Do the INIS know about the Husband? What do they need to know about?

Very very very very few EU Citizens actually bother to register with the INIS, it is not obligatory.

All the INIS need to know , is , he is British. If he intends to live here for more than 3 months, the INIS only need to know whether he is complying with Article 7 of the Directive.

Other than that, cases like Mrax and Commission v Netherlands (which more or less is now spelt out in articles like Article 2-10 of the Directive) apply

2. THe Visa Division is well famous for making illegal decisions, and for making decisions without actually setting out real reasons for refusal. The INIS are famous for ignoring EU law.

Saying, that, I am pretty interested to know the real reasons

If it was just a holiday, normally, you could just provide evidence of place of residency and tickets proving that they are leaving Ireland within 2 weeks and proof of funds etc.


Assumptions:

No Assumptions.

You have proven that to be the case. I did not make an Assumption. I made a statement of FACT

If you actually knew what you were talking about you would NOT have said "there is no engagement on treaty rights based on the OP. " Because, that is nonsense, it ignores Article 6 of the Directive. Despite , this, and failure to provide any evidence to support your argument, you attempted to express doubt as to the veracity of my subsequent statements. Again, if you knew what you were talking about, you would not have replied in the manner that you did



I see Freudian Slip once again showing his ignorance, despite the Mrax case being referred, to help rebut your earlier argument.




"BTW can you cite case law stating that an EU national's spouse has a stand alone right of entry for a holiday under EU law"


Stand alone? The spouse must accompany or join the EU spouse in the said country .

THere are a number of other cases subsequent to Mrax, Commission v Netherlands (all laid out and confirmed in Directive 2004/38 EC as a whole , actually, cough Article 6)

But, as that would no be going into the realm of legal advice.....................

You lost the argument. Stop talking

johnnyskeleton

Mod: Lt JR, you have posted three very uncivil comments. As you are reasonably new you get a warning but please be civil in future

olawunmi

Hello, I am a Nigerian presently in Istanbul turkey on vacation with my husband who is a British citizen we also plan to visit Italy but i did not obtain a visa before leaving Nigeria do i have any chance of getting to Italy as a wife of an EU citizen thanks