"Heterophobia" & Hetero/Homonormativity

Dr. Baltar

Before I begin, let me define "the scene" in my own terms (because as an outsider how can I say what it is?) by giving the example of two people who grew up in the same neighbourhood and went to the same school.

One is named Gay Gerry and the other, Bi Bertie.

In secondary school, Gay Gerry was outed by a friend of his, he suffered from bullying and even those who stood by him (including Bi Bertie who was not out at the time) were criticised for having anything to do with Gerry.
These attacks from most people in the school caused Gerry to realise that "straight people" (not all of them now) were the cause of his misery. Him, being an outsider (a homosexual man) living in a heteronormative Ireland was not good for him at all.

So Gerry started hanging around with more and more Gay friends. He decided that "if society is to reject me, I shall reject the society". He became happier, as those that he met (including his boyfriend) always seemed to have the same values as him. It soon became the case that Gerry's life was going well.

Homophobia never stopped unfortunately. The almost exclusive friendhsip of LGBTA friends meant that it was significantly decreased alright, but those damn straight people could never keep their nose out of it entirely and would sometimes call him names. However, Gerry was happier, becuase those straight people (the only people who have hated him for what he is) weren't around him anymore - well only the nice ones but let's be honest, their gay in all but name! Gerry is happy living in his subculture away from the straights, after all they have been mean to him, and it's best to remove himself from that kind.

---

The story is completely different for Bi Bertie. Bertie went through school, knowing that he was attracted to both guys and girls. But what was the point of telling any of his friends? After all, life is good.

When Gerry came out, it was a bit of shocker to Bertie, he'd known the guy for a long time, and admired his courage for being able to say something to everyone in school. Regardless of what some of his friends said to Gerry, Bertie would always stick up for him.

After a while, Bertie went to college, and didn't see much of Gerry, while there, he relaxed, and slowly began coming out. Eventually, he told his parents.

After coming out, he decided to get back in touch with Gerry, told him his news and went out "on the scene" with his friend a few times. However, what he saw did not impress him it all. He found that the "scene" was for a start, very narrow-minded, bi-phobic and very heterophobic.

Never again he said. Although Bertie still talks to Gerry, and they go out every now and again, Bertie refuses to go to any Gay bars because he finds the people there insulting to the straight friends who he has stuck by and who have stuck by him for all of these years.

---

True story broken down very briefly to it's core, and I of course, would be Bertie in that story (not my real name :P ). My point is, I find that "the scene" can be quite heterophobic at times. For example, I once went to a gay bar with my gf at the time to be told that the bar was for "Adam and Steve" yet, when I went there with a guy I was with everyone was extremely friendly, yet heterophobic to my straight friends who went (even though they are very pro-lgbt).

I can understand where the fear comes from but I do think that it's very sad.

My question is simple:
1. Do you fit more into Gerry or Bertie's story, ie. are you more of a LGBT person who simply wants homophobia ((And heterophobia) eliminated and for same sex couples to be have equal rights, or do you believe the divide between gay and straight is something that cannot be healed as "we" are fundamentally different?

2. Heterophobia? Ever experienced it? What did you do/say?

baby and crumble

It does bug me that even though we're working towards equal rights (marriage etc) we're still keeping separate for a lot of things... We're expected to have lots in common but we don't, really... i hate this distinction between your 'gay friends' and your 'straight' friends. There's this big idea that straight people just won't 'get' us... which I think is a load of old baloney.

But hey, that's just me. I agree with you, OP: in the gay scene straight is seen as bad, and bi... well, god, isn't that just code for 'scared gay'?

Dr. Baltar

zoegh wrote: »

But hey, that's just me. I agree with you, OP: in the gay scene straight is seen as bad, and bi... well, god, isn't that just code for 'scared gay'?

Absolutely, it seems to me that our "allies" tend to be very open-minded, while as the members of the "scene" tend to be far less tolerant than their straight allies. I once walked into a clothes shop with "Gerry" and said that I hated shopping and anything girly "like that" to which he scoffed "you're still in that closet". How does clothes sshopping influence my sexuality?

wonderfulname

Oh wow, theres a lot of info! I have to say both possibly more you.

I've been out since I was 13 or that, a girl at school had been outed and my year were going crazy, eventually I laughed in one of their faces and said something along the lines of "you do realize shes not that bloody different, I like women too and you don't seem to have an issue with me"
After that my year were always quite understanding, talking to people now I realize how lucky I was. As a result of this I never felt a need to distance myself from the norm, I hung out with people I shared interests with rather than sexuality. Only ever been subject to one instance of strong homophobia, and to be honest i can't really think of any times its been casual. I don't like the "scene", and friendships with people who have been swallowed up by it have gotten quite.. tense..
Heterophobia I have noticed, and I pity those who feel that way. I haven't quite gotten my head round how to react, after all it is really a wounded dog biting, so I just do nothing Straight friends seem to see it as an oddity anyway, I can see why, they don't have issues to deal with regarding sexuality so its not exactly a low blow.
I think people are changing, I think in my generation an incredibly large portion of Irish society will not only be accepting, but uncaring, well not uncaring, unfazed? It won't be an issue anyway! I think the idea of an unhealable divide is ridiculous, relationships and interactions with people should be based on something more than mere sexuality!

baby and crumble

I do think that sometimes, the stereotypes that people may go on about are actually perpetuated by gay people ourselves. And you're right, in general I've found straight people to be a lot more accepting than those heavily into 'the scene'...

Dr. Baltar

zoegh wrote: »

I do think that sometimes, the stereotypes that people may go on about are actually perpetuated by gay people ourselves. And you're right, in general I've found straight people to be a lot more accepting than those heavily into 'the scene'...

I think that is the essential problem with the scene and indeed gay pride. Summed up it pretty much screams "We are flamboyant homosexuals and we are different to you. Now treat us the same!

wonderfulname wrote: »

I think people are changing, I think in my generation an incredibly large portion of Irish society will not only be accepting, but uncaring, well not uncaring, unfazed? It won't be an issue anyway! I think the idea of an unhealable divide is ridiculous, relationships and interactions with people should be based on something more than mere sexuality!

I agree, but I am very anti-scene and I believe that if it didn't exist it would help heal the hurts a lot faster.

Dilynnio

When I first started coming out I went on the scene all the time.....but I wasn't too crazy on the people that I met. My straight friends are great and have been out with me and yes I have noticed the whole...you are straight what are you doing here attitude of many...and yes it is annoying.Straights are definitely way more accepting. I am a lipstick as some people would say and even I have been told in gay bars to stop pretending to be gay cause I am not butch and what is seen to be a gay women.

I eventually saw the light and no longer go to these places where the most judgmental of gays live! I think the problem is that people become obsessed with being gay.......when really its only a small part of you and it most certainly does not define who you are as a person. It did take me awhile though to figure out that most people don't give a **** as to what you do or who you do in the bedroom anyway!

The Irish 'straights' in fairness are very tolerant and accepting. Times really have changed and I for one thought that I would never witness or say that!

But each to their own and all that!

wonderfulname

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I agree, but I am very anti-scene and I believe that if it didn't exist it would help heal the hurts a lot faster.

But as you've pointed out yourself, the scene is a comfort to those who aren't wholly comfortable being themselves in the real world. Purely judging from people I know, 80s stereotypes in the gay community play exactly the same role as black clothes and funny haircuts in outcast teens, it gives a sense of belonging and security. It makes insults less personal, if your yelled at for being a loser, well then you must be a loser, if your yelled at for being a goth-freak, well then someone just has an issue with a general group of people, thats their fault not yours.
Groups are necessary, its just this is one which needs to re-evaluate its image, I cant remember if it was pride last year but a float of women in tuxes and men in hot pants followed by another that had something to do with AIDs really isn't a good way to go about rectifying stereotypes.. People need to see that gay isn't all that out there and different, that theres nothing wrong with it and that for the majority of people, it isn't the defining feature of their personality. Pride is the annual opportunity to change perceptions and to make a real move towards equal rights, and instead of sparking proper debate on change we get a nice little spot at the end of the news for which the basic message is "aw look at the little gays, all out there and proud, we accept them now you know!"

Went of on a bit of a tangent there.. but I'm sure it makes sense: people need people, but those people should think about the message they're putting out.

Dr. Baltar

wonderfulname wrote: »

But as you've pointed out yourself, the scene is a comfort to those who aren't wholly comfortable being themselves in the real world. Purely judging from people I know, 80s stereotypes in the gay community play exactly the same role as black clothes and funny haircuts in outcast teens, it gives a sense of belonging and security. It makes insults less personal, if your yelled at for being a loser, well then you must be a loser, if your yelled at for being a goth-freak, well then someone just has an issue with a general group of people, thats their fault not yours.
Groups are necessary, its just this is one which needs to re-evaluate its image, I cant remember if it was pride last year but a float of women in tuxes and men in hot pants followed by another that had something to do with AIDs really isn't a good way to go about rectifying stereotypes.. People need to see that gay isn't all that out there and different, that theres nothing wrong with it and that for the majority of people, it isn't the defining feature of their personality. Pride is the annual opportunity to change perceptions and to make a real move towards equal rights, and instead of sparking proper debate on change we get a nice little spot at the end of the news for which the basic message is "aw look at the little gays, all out there and proud, we accept them now you know!"

Went of on a bit of a tangent there.. but I'm sure it makes sense: people need people, but those people should think about the message they're putting out.

I understand that the scene is necessary. Especially for those who are literally afraid of straight people.

Nevyn

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I understand that the scene is necessary. Especially for those who are literally afraid of straight people.

I wouldn't say that, it was the only way once to meet people and to find friends and a partner, this isn't' the case any more.

It used to be a group of people all of which kept each other's secrets, you could expect that when it was illegal people would not out each other and that even today that if you are not 'out' it would be respected but that is getting less and less.

WE have a new generation of lgbtq young people who don't know the history or understand the socail forces which created the scene and community, esp if they have had an easy time of coming out and haven't needed as much support or just got on with thier lives and view other sections of LGBTQ as freaks or not gay enough.

wonderfulname

Thaedydal wrote: »

WE have a new generation of lgbtq young people who don't know the history or understand the socail forces...

Oh we KNOW alright, we make it our business to, but its impossible to understand, the concept of illegality is so foreign.. it seems impossible that it was a fact such a short time ago.

baby and crumble

perhaps the 'scene' is getting to the point where it's becomming redundant? is it really needed anymore?

Just throwing it out there...

MicraBoy

I'm deffo a Bertie, but my opinion is that the scene needs more us. The problem is that the Berites always tend to shy away from the scene because of the Gerrys, which just allows them to fill the vaccum.

Also when ever anyone says something to me because I don't fall into a certain stereotype I always throw the phrase "Don't you oppress me" back at them in jest. It usually gives them pause for thought.

Dr. Baltar

MicraBoy wrote: »

I'm deffo a Bertie, but my opinion is that the scene needs more us. The problem is that the Berites always tend to shy away from the scene because of the Gerrys, which just allows them to fill the vaccum.

Also when ever anyone says something to me because I don't fall into a certain stereotype I always throw the phrase "Don't you oppress me" back at them in jest. It usually gives them pause for thought.

The thing is, as a Bertie, by our very nature I don't think we want to be part of the scene as we don't exactly see a need for it. Perhaps the experience of someone's coming out really influences what group they tend to join?
If anything, I think the gay rights movement would be a lot more effective if instead of the berties joining the gerrys the gerrys joined the berties.

As for the whole thing of people saying you don't conform to a stereotype, I've always seen the funny side to it. A gay guy once casually asked me "Do you ever get sick of the splinters in your arse from sitting on the fence so much?" - I just laughed for ages.