Brian Cowan survives vote barely 82/77

paddy

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/politics.html

Looks like Fianna Fail just survived, personally I would like to see the back of them for a long time.

allthedoyles

paddy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/politics.html

Looks like Fianna Fail just survived, personally I would like to see the back of them for a long time.

Well you are not going to see the back of them , for a long time

Sand

Oh wow, thats a surprise...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

edellc

i'm lost for words at this stage we are well and truly f***ed

Wolfe Tone

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Excellent point. As time goes on FF are increasingly looking like the lesser of two evils so to speak. I shudder at the thought of voting for them but unless the opposition get their acts together I may have to.

danbohan

donegalfella wrote: »

With FG imploding and Eamon Gilmore smugly expecting to become the next Taoiseach, I can't say I'm too upset to see the government survive, for now.

What to do when you have an atrocious government, but a worse opposition?[/QUOT

any potential dictators out there ?.

Wolfe Tone

danbohan wrote: »

donegalfella wrote: »

With FG imploding and Eamon Gilmore smugly expecting to become the next Taoiseach, I can't say I'm too upset to see the government survive, for now.

What to do when you have an atrocious government, but a worse opposition?

any potential dictators out there ?.

Hello.

Haha

stepbar

I guess that means there's 3 by elections that won't be happening anytime soon.....

Liam Byrne

A sad day for accountability and democracy.

If nothing else, maybe it will show some of the less-savvy electorate that Cowen's "I accept responsibility" was more about appearances than sincerity.

peasant

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If nothing else, maybe it will show some of the less-savvy electorate that Cowen's "I accept responsibility" was more about appearances than sincerity.

Why?
You can accept something and still shrug it off

Liam Byrne

peasant wrote: »

Why?
You can accept something and still shrug it off

Hence the first sentence.

Shallow, insincere "Acceptance" is not the same as taking responsibility and actually being held accountable.

Ever seen a murderer "accept responsibility" and then get off scot-free without having sanctions imposed ?

Smiley Burnett

are ye all that stupid???? did ye really expect the govt to fall this evening??
the motion of no confidence in cowen was put down for debate in order to show him up and embrass him in the dail!

cowen was always going to win it!! this govt will last the full term unless

1--the greens walk out
2--ff backbenchers try to save their skins and vote against the govt on a budgetary matter

now please cop on!!

Smiley Burnett

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Excellent point. As time goes on FF are increasingly looking like the lesser of two evils so to speak. I shudder at the thought of voting for them but unless the opposition get their acts together I may have to.

any excuse to vote for fianna fail!!!

Liam Byrne

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

are ye all that stupid???? did ye really expect the govt to fall this evening??

Unfortunately I have to agree.

The only day that this might have worked was last week when FF members were dossing off.

Once Cowen managed to delay it until today, it was a non-runner.

Justice was never going to be done today.

ANXIOUS

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Unfortunately I have to agree.

The only day that this might have worked was last week when FF members were dossing off.

Once Cowen managed to delay it until today, it was a non-runner.

Justice was never going to be done today.

How was justice not done? Did someone vote twice or something? Or did people freely and fairly elected by the people vote. And the outcome was one that you disagreed with?

Liam Byrne

ANXIOUS wrote: »

How was justice not done? Did someone vote twice or something? Or did people freely and fairly elected by the people vote. And the outcome was one that you disagreed with?

The person identified by two reports as being responsible for the current crisis stayed on as leader of the country.

RichardAnd

I'm actually giving strong consideration to voting FF in the next general election. I'm not a fan of any politician at all but I have to vote for someone and to me, FF is starting to seem like the least worst option.

The reason is that whilst they have certainly acted the maggot in the past, so too did almost everyone else. Let us not forget that FG ran the 2007 election making crazy promised like laptops for every child in secondary school or "free" GP visits for all. Then we have labour, the champions of the working man (whomever he is) with their robin hood approach to finance. SF, I'm not even going to mention.

So yes, FF have made mistakes, bad ones but the idea that they can do nothing right is absurd. Only recently, they attempted to tackle social welfare and they are at least trying to make cuts in some areas. Let no one be under any illusion, this HAS to be done but if you look at what is coming from FG and labours, you will see nothing but lists of reasons why FF are bad and insane promises like 100k new jobs and a green/smart economy by 2020 or what have you.

Besides look at what has happened in FG with Kenny. I don't think much of that man but he has been stabbed in the back by his own party who, motivate by their own selfish agenda of power, want him out but are claiming with a straight face that this is for Ireland.

FF, FG, labour, SF, the Greens and the rest, they are all the same type. Never forget for a moment that politicians work in an area where honesty, loyalty and selflessness will get you no where. So when thousands of angry wrenches go to the poles to cast their anti FF votes, they should know that they are only seeing off the same people they are welcoming in.

ANXIOUS

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The person identified by two reports as being responsible for the current crisis stayed on as leader of the country.

But liam that doesn't support your statement that justice wasn't done.


Would you prefer fg or labour to come in now and do what the Tories are doing in England at the moment. Straight away they cone in and start saying " oh it's worse than we thought" In my opinion that is a cop out and a ploy on their part to buy themselves time and cop out on election promises. And I am certain that the opposition would use that card at every opportunity if they got elected. At least with ff you don't have this. You have a party steadfastly looking for a solution to this GLOBAL crisis.

Liam Byrne

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Straight away they cone in and start saying " oh it's worse than we thought" In my opinion that is a cop out and a ploy on their part to buy themselves time and cop out on election promises. And I am certain that the opposition would use that card at every opportunity if they got elected. At least with ff you don't have this.

What ?

For starters, every time we hear about Anglo or NAMA it's "worse than we thought".

Then, when it comes to day-to-day issues such as employment or inflation or whatever, we keep hearing "we've turned a corner" so often that we're getting dizzy.

At least if FG or the Tories say that, they're telling the truth, instead of lying through their teeth.

Sand

Look, Fianna Fail have to lose the next election - thats just a basic requirement of the view that we have a republic here, where the people hold their government to account for its failure. The "Ah shure the opposition are no better!" argument only holds so long as it is probable that the opposition can do a worse job than Fianna Fail.

Given the state of the country, the demoralisation of the people beaten down and the confirmation of the appalling abdication of fiscal responsibility of the government over the past 10 years in the recent reports on the banking and fiscal crisis, it is no longer probable that the opposition can do a worse job than Fianna Fail. It is simply impossible. Short of inducing nuclear winter, it is hard to see how any credible alternative coalition could do a worse job than Fianna Fail.

So hence it is not a question of voting for Fianna Fail - it is simply a question of determining who comes lower down the list of transfer preferences...barely reformed two faced Provo terrorists, utterly debased, incompetent and lying Greens, the David Begg/Jack O Connor Labour party with its public sector aristocrats, or the incompetent and corrupted rump of the Fianna Fail mafia that have driven this country into the ground.

However, Fine Gael are at least better than the above and stand at least a 50-50 chance of doing a better job than Fianna Fail. Worst case scenario, they will do about the same. They simply cannot do worse. It is just not possible when one considers Frank Fahey is one of the financial and economic wizkids of FF.

RichardAnd

Sand wrote: »

Look, Fianna Fail have to lose the next election - thats just a basic requirement of the view that we have a republic here, where the people hold their government to account for its failure. The "Ah shure the opposition are no better!" argument only holds so long as it is probable that the opposition can do a worse job than Fianna Fail.

Yes you are quite right but I as bad as FF are, FG and defiantly labour would be worse, in my opinion at least. The flip side of the "ah sure they other lot are no better" argument is the "ah sure they couldn't be any worse" argument with is equally as flawed.

As I said in my post, vote against FF simply because they have failed is nto the way to go. I do not reward failure and I think it should be punished but I also think that voting against a party without properly reason is a folly.

dan_d

Why are we even bothering with these votes of no confidence?
They just seem like a waste of time, nothing ever happens, and on we go.
My cat would probably be a more effective leader. (don't ask why I think that, but at least she exudes an air of intelligence, if nothing else!)

Inquitus

Sand wrote: »

Look, Fianna Fail have to lose the next election - thats just a basic requirement of the view that we have a republic here, where the people hold their government to account for its failure. The "Ah shure the opposition are no better!" argument only holds so long as it is probable that the opposition can do a worse job than Fianna Fail.

I would vote FF in an election tomorrow, FG and Labour are not a credible alternative at the moment, perhaps if they put forward some coherent policy instead of sitting on the fence ahead of any election, they could change my mind, but at the moment they just criticise everything and refuse to put forward any viable alternative policy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

We need a stable, competent government, which cannot come from a fractured, splintered party.

A big +1 to that very simple requirement.

As somebody with a histotically deep antipathy to all things Fianna Fail I too would be reluctant to contemplate an Opposition formed Government.

As I see things,we currently have a Government which has been caught-out.

The current cabinet represent the very worst of the "schoolboy caught with his hand in the sweet jar" ethos and each day`1s revelations about expenses,golf-trips and crazed decision making reinforces that.

However,to speak of "getting them out" is to offer these reprobates an easy-out route,which would allow many of them to fade into the wings clutching their pension papers in their grubby little hands.

NO,NNO,a thousand times NO !.....The way forward is for us all (The People) to demand a level of performance from these,largely medicore,public representatives.

This CAN be achieved,but only if we,The People,shake ourselves out of our traditional political lethargy and adopt a proactive stance towards our governance....."GET AN INTEREST".

Put your local TD`s home-page on your favorites list and check it regularly.
If you see the muppet talking utter ballcocks,(on YOUR behalf)then e-mail him/her and give vent to YOUR opinions.

We need to get comfortable with the reality of the Democratic process and realize that the TD represents US and THEY need to be reminded of that reality too

The Recession/Depression is by now well underway and we are all well aware of the cast of characters.

However ,calling for Seanie Fitzpatricks head on a pike or the tarring and feathering of Michael Fingleton will serve little actual purpose as long as our senior Public Representatives manage to stay in the background.

We need to start thinking for ourselves and listening to voices of reason such as the new Governor of the Central Bank who has been speaking a lot of clearly thought-out logic in recent days.

Get a Life-Get an Interest !!!!

Banned Account

82 + 77 = 159 add 3 bye elections = 162 anyone know where the other 4 votes belong to?

Nijmegen

The only thing that might bring down the government is the fact that more than one FFér looks a few spare ribs away from a heart attack...

Our politics in Ireland is full of people incapable of bringing the kind of massive, systemic reform we would need to provide a state that actually works... One that can measure things, and take measured decisions, and implement policy well.

A country that couldn't tell you how many schoolkids sit in prefabs, if a baby is dead or alive or give you joined-up thinking in means testing for benefits and taxation... The list goes on, of course, of the systemic failures of our state.

Name me the political party that would bring in the kind of bread and butter management reform we need to make this country work?

miseeire

What has the island of saints and scholars done to deserve the politicians,the government and the voters that inhabit this island today?

Banned Account

miseeire wrote: »

What has the island of saints and scholars done to deserve the politicians,the government and the voters that inhabit this island today?

Nothing ... for decades ...

Jaysoose

I just hope the IMF are watching as something needs to be done and quickly. How much longer can the goverment carry on burying their heads in the sand and saying "it was the lehmann bro's...but we are turning a corner" i personally dont care who the next leader is but we CANNOT allow this current crop to continue and ignore the facts...FF are bankrupt both financially and morally but still they sit and do nothing.

Riskymove

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

82 + 77 = 159 add 3 bye elections = 162 anyone know where the other 4 votes belong to?

1. ceann comhairle

2. Joe Behan (former FF independent) abstained

3. Eamon Ryan away on business

4. Sean Ardagh ill apparantly

3 (maybe even all 4) would have voted for the Government

Liam Byrne

RichardAnd wrote: »

As I said in my post, vote against FF simply because they have failed is nto the way to go. I do not reward failure and I think it should be punished but I also think that voting against a party without properly reason is a folly.

Is "failure" not a damn good reason ? :eek:

Deise Tom

paddy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/politics.html

Looks like Fianna Fail just survived, personally I would like to see the back of them for a long time.

Did anyone seruiously expect the vote to go any other way. The greens are not going to go against FF anyway, the ones that were appointed to ministers and junior ministers jobs recently wont anyway. Dont you have to serve two years or something like that to get a pension. Whats left in the life time of the current dail

Anyway, who would you put in if there was an election called. A party that is fighting amonsgst itself or maybe a party with a smug leader and a deputy leader who has an opion on everything and a solution to nothing

Deise Tom

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Excellent point. As time goes on FF are increasingly looking like the lesser of two evils so to speak. I shudder at the thought of voting for them but unless the opposition get their acts together I may have to.

I can understand why people might want Fianna Fail out, but as you say right now they may well be the lesser of two evils. I bet the Labour gang will be in now. One thing however we have to give Fianna Fail credit for, while they did make a mess out of things over the years, they have in recent weeks and months been working hard to rectify these mistakes (or any other words you may wish to use), even if most people in public are not happy with what they are having to do.

Deise Tom

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A sad day for accountability and democracy.

If nothing else, maybe it will show some of the less-savvy electorate that Cowen's "I accept responsibility" was more about appearances than sincerity.

Why was it a bad day for democracy. In 2007, while they did not get a majority, the most of the people that got off their arse to vote, wanted Fianna Fail returned to power.

Deise Tom

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

are ye all that stupid???? did ye really expect the govt to fall this evening??
the motion of no confidence in cowen was put down for debate in order to show him up and embrass him in the dail!

cowen was always going to win it!! this govt will last the full term unless

1--the greens walk out
2--ff backbenchers try to save their skins and vote against the govt on a budgetary matter

now please cop on!!

I dont think the greens will pull the plug on Fianna Fail in the next 23 months or so. Why would they. Despite what they might say, some of them you can be damn sure are there for the perks and wont give anything up so easily.

Deise Tom

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would not be a FG fan, but if there was a General Election in the morning, and FF were not in a position to form a government on their own or with the help of others, I would prefer to see FG go in on their own without a majority than yo join up with Labour in Government. Putting them anywhere near power would see the country go totally burst in double quick time.

Deise Tom

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

82 + 77 = 159 add 3 bye elections = 162 anyone know where the other 4 votes belong to?

The Ceann Comhairle only votes when the vote is tied so that is where did three votes go.

Deise Tom

Just wondering, did anybody watch the debate and the voting on line. I watched the very end of it on line (the voting and the result) and could not notice the there was hardly anyone on the opposition side of the house for the declatation of the result. I would have thought that if Enda Kenny, the man who looked for the vote was any good, he would have had the balls to sit and listen to the result called out. I might be doing the man an injustice as there was some walking around the house when it was been read out and he may have been one of them, but i would have thought he could have sat and listened.

Riskymove

Deise Tom wrote: »

I would have thought that if Enda Kenny, the man who looked for the vote was any good, he would have had the balls to sit and listen to the result called out. I might be doing the man an injustice as there was some walking around the house when it was been read out and he may have been one of them, but i would have thought he could have sat and listened.

welcome to our great democracy in action

it goes something like this

Cowen speaks first, all FF TDS sitting with him, encouraging 'hear, hears' ...muttered insults from across the floor (all oppossition TDs in place)

Cowen finishes so all FF TDS roar approaval and applause and then all except 2 or three remaining with cowen bugger off

Enda kenny speaks, all FG TDS sitting with him, encouraging 'hear, hears' ...muttered insults from whoever is left with Cowen

Enda finishes, all FG TDs (usually, in this case a few more muted!) roar approval and applaud, then all but 2 or 3 bugger off too


and so on and so on


then they all come running to vote when the bell rings, vote and bugger off again

The Ceann Comhairle only votes when the vote is tied so that is where did three votes go.

answered above

Deise Tom

Riskymove wrote: »

welcome to our great democracy in action

it goes something like this

Cowen speaks first, all FF TDS sitting with him, encouraging 'hear, hears' ...muttered insults from across the floor (all oppossition TDs in place)

Cowen finishes so all FF TDS roar approaval and applause and then all except 2 or three remaining with cowen bugger off

Enda kenny speaks, all FG TDS sitting with him, encouraging 'hear, hears' ...muttered insults from whoever is left with Cowen

Enda finishes, all FG TDs (usually, in this case a few more muted!) roar approval and applaud, then all but 2 or 3 bugger off too


and so on and so on


then they all come running to vote when the bell rings, vote and bugger off again

I know that is what happens, my point was that Enda Kenny did not have the balls after purposing the vote of confidence to sit across from the Taoiseach and ear the result been called out.

Liam Byrne

Deise Tom wrote: »

Why was it a bad day for democracy. In 2007, while they did not get a majority, the most of the people that got off their arse to vote, wanted Fianna Fail returned to power.

In 2007 most people weren't aware of Cowen's involvement, and Cowen & Lenihan hadn't written blank cheques for the corrupt banks.

Deise Tom

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In 2007 most people weren't aware of Cowen's involvement, and Cowen & Lenihan hadn't written blank cheques for the corrupt banks.

Would say the most people with a head on their shoulders knew in 2007 that things were begining to change, and they still voted FF in. Does not say much for FG and in particular Enda and Eamon.

Smiley Burnett

Deise Tom wrote: »

Would say the most people with a head on their shoulders knew in 2007 that things were begining to change, and they still voted FF in. Does not say much for FG and in particular Enda and Eamon.

cowen and FF told bare-faced lies to the people in 2007! That's why they were re-elected.

Liam Byrne

Deise Tom wrote: »

Would say the most people with a head on their shoulders knew in 2007 that things were begining to change, and they still voted FF in.

There's a massive difference between "things beginning to change" and throwing billions down the toilet that serve no purpose and that we'll never get back.

If FF had said that in 2007, then I'd suspect that even those who couldn't see through their existing lies would have thought twice!

Well, most of them anyway; the "staunch" ones would probably still have voted for the Borg.

Deise Tom

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

cowen and FF told bare-faced lies to the people in 2007! That's why they were re-elected.

Tell me a councillor or td that does not tell lies.

I know of one person canvasing for the last local elections that was cleared from a door for telling the truth.

Most will say what people want to hear.

Liam Byrne

Deise Tom wrote: »

Tell me a councillor or td that does not tell lies.

I know of one person canvasing for the last local elections that was cleared from a door for telling the truth.

Most will say what people want to hear.

Then we need better councillors & TDs.

Nijmegen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Then we need better councillors & TDs.

To an extent, there is the old "The people get the government they deserve" - people know TDs and councillors are liars, but they elect them anyway. It's a reflection of society.

Deise Tom

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Then we need better councillors & TDs.

I'm glad its you said that.