Lion of Ireland

Muscovite

Hi, everyone! I'm a newcomer here, my name's Ilya, I am from Moscow and I am actually working on the Russian translation of the novel "Lion of Ireland" by Morgan Llywelyn - that is the time if Brian Boru, the X-XI cent.

As a matter of fact, I have some difficulties here with interpreting several native Irish names, titles and cultural phenomena correctly. So...I humbly ask for assistance

First of all, what's the Irish way of pronouncing "Munster"? Is it like "cup" or like "bush"? The question's very oblique in our language.

Also, the name Fiacaid. Is it pronounced letter-to-letter, the way it spells?

Finally (for now:o), the phrase "Masses of hawthorn pressed upon the stone walls that occasionally separated the holdings of the farmers of Munster" - does it mean that Brian occasionally saw some farms surrounded by walls or that he saw farms, but the walls were just here and there?

Thanks beforehand)

Blush_01

Muscovite wrote: »

Hi, everyone! I'm a newcomer here, my name's Ilya, I am from Moscow and I am actually working on the Russian translation of the novel "Lion of Ireland" by Morgan Llywelyn - that is the time if Brian Boru, the X-XI cent.

As a matter of fact, I have some difficulties here with interpreting several native Irish names, titles and cultural phenomena correctly. So...I humbly ask for assistance

First of all, what's the Irish way of pronouncing "Munster"? Is it like "cup" or like "bush"? The question's very oblique in our language.

Also, the name Fiacaid. Is it pronounced letter-to-letter, the way it spells?

Finally (for now:o), the phrase "Masses of hawthorn pressed upon the stone walls that occasionally separated the holdings of the farmers of Munster" - does it mean that Brian occasionally saw some farms surrounded by walls or that he saw farms, but the walls were just here and there?

Thanks beforehand)

Hi Ilya,

The 'u' sound in Munster is the same as that in cup.

Fiacaid is pronounced fee-ack-ad if I remember correctly, but I could be wrong.

Finally (for now ) the farms that Brian saw were occasionally surrounded by walls covered in hawthorn, but not all of the farms were separated by walls.

I hope that helps a little - I loved reading the Lion of Ireland when I was in primary school, I must have read it about 8 or 10 times.

Muscovite

Thanks, that's really helpful! Many things are translated...err...weakly into Russian, in terms of contents and style, first of all, which disappoints. Books should sell quickly, it's all about commerce, but I'm up to a good translation.

The passage with Camin's druidic rite was quite difficult - I was afraid of interpreting some of his thoughts wrongly, losing some understatement.

A pity there's no Llywelyn in Russian yet)

longhalloween

Muscovite wrote: »

Thanks, that's really helpful! Many things are translated...err...weakly into Russian, in terms of contents and style, first of all, which disappoints. Books should sell quickly, it's all about commerce, but I'm up to a good translation.

The passage with Camin's druidic rite was quite difficult - I was afraid of interpreting some of his thoughts wrongly, losing some understatement.

A pity there's no Llywelyn in Russian yet)

Is there not a fada in Fiacáid? I cant really remember but it sounds like there should be...making it Fi-ac-aw-ge

Muscovite

longhalloween wrote: »

Is there not a fada in Fiacáid? I cant really remember but it sounds like there should be...making it Fi-ac-aw-ge

Alas, there are no fadas or other signs in this edition. When I used a chart of Gaelic transcription to transcribe this name without a fada, I got just what Blush_01 says, but the chart actually provides variants with signs, and I cannot choose properly seeing no signs in the text...
By the way, there are other problematic words:

Oisin (a name)

Fithir (a name)

filidh (a term - a social group)

seanchai (a term - a historian and a storyteller)

Eliot Rosewater

I think these are right...

Muscovite wrote: »

Oisin (a name)

Oisín

Ush - een
(ush as in gush; een as in cleen)

Muscovite wrote: »

filidh (a term - a social group)

fil - a
(fil as in fill - the l is short; a as in apple)

Muscovite wrote: »

seanchai (a term - a historian and a storyteller)

seanchaí
shan - a - kee
(shan as in man; a as in apple; kee as in bee)


Boards.ie also has an Irish language forum!

sceptre

This could belong in Language & Etymology (perhaps) but as you're going for Irish pronunciations and I suspect there may be more, I'm going to move it to the Gaeilge/Irish board.

The literature board is intended for literature discussions so the other boards are more appropriate and you're more likely to get good answers (though those here have been excellent).

Oh, welcome to boards and all that niceness:)

Muscovite

Thank you. I'm really much obliged!
Could I bother you a bit more?:o

Lachtna (a name)

Echtigern (a name)

Donncuan (a name)

Am I correct to refer to the Dal Cais as to a clan? (it matters for Russian grammar)

Also the word "hatchet". Dictionaries translate it both as "a knife" and "an ax". When Mahon heard the howling of wolves at night and went to help defend the cattle, he was armed with a spear and a hatchet. So what would a Celtic warrior rather have - an ax or a knife? My logic whispers it was a knife, but...

sceptre

Muscovite wrote: »

Also the word "hatchet". Dictionaries translate it both as "a knife" and "an ax". When Mahon heard the howling of wolves at night and went to help defend the cattle, he was armed with a spear and a hatchet. So what would a Celtic warrior rather have - an ax or a knife? My logic whispers it was a knife, but...

It's an axe. Could be something like either this or this. I've never heard someone using hatchet to mean knife - here these days it would be the general term for the thing you use to chop logs, we'd usually use axe to refer to one specifically designed as a weapon. A hatchet would generally have a nice wide blade.

Muscovite

sceptre wrote: »

It's an axe. Could be something like either this or this. I've never heard someone using hatchet to mean knife - here these days it would be the general term for the thing you use to chop logs, we'd usually use axe to refer to one specifically designed as a weapon. A hatchet would generally have a nice wide blade.

Thanks for the answer, especially for the pics!
I'm afraid I need more help here...Could somebody please describe a jacket that a Celtic soldier wore? Was it a leather jacket?

mathepac

Muscovite wrote: »

... filidh (a term - a social group) ...

This word, pronunciation as defined above, is I believe the term used for a very important group in the class-system of ancient Ireland. They were poets and satirists and some claim they shared functions and responsibilities with bards and druids although their influence on Irish society lasted far longer, up to the 17th century in some cases.

My own family name is strongly associated with the filí of both Munster and north-west Ulster.

Today, file pron. fill-eh, modern Irish version of filidh, is generally taken to mean simply a poet or rhymer; in ancient Ireland that defined only part of what this class of people did.

http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/Contents.php

A wiki entry for the above author - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Hull

http://irelandsown.net/druids1.html

The above brief article contains references

Aard

Blush_01 wrote: »

The 'u' sound in Munster is the same as that in cup.

Only if you pronounce it like the Irish do. When Ilya asks about <cup> vs <bush>, she is talking about [ʌ] vs [ʊ]. The British (amongst others) make this distinction, whereas the Irish (amongst others) conflate them. We always pronounce it the latter. The <u> in <Munster> is pronounced like the <u> in <bush>.



(Apologies for being a pedant, but I imagine this is important for a book on Ireland for foreigners)

mathepac

Muscovite wrote: »

... Am I correct to refer to the Dal Cais as to a clan? (it matters for Russian grammar) ...

It is probably more correct to refer to them as dynastic grouping of septs, maybe a dynasty.

The terms clan and sept are sometimes used interchangeably and sometimes confused. Unlike their cousins in the highlands of Scotland, the ancient Irish never developed an especially strong clan system. Sept in this case is probably more appropriate as a collective term describing a group of persons of immediate ancestry bearing a common family name and inhabiting a specific geograpic territory. A "clan" tended to have a chieftain at its head, whereas an Irish "sept", such as the O'Briens in the book in question, tended to have kings or even High Kings.

Muscovite

mathepac wrote: »

It is probably more correct to refer to them as dynastic grouping of septs, maybe a dynasty.

The terms clan and sept are sometimes used interchangeably and sometimes confused. Unlike their cousins in the highlands of Scotland, the ancient Irish never developed an especially strong clan system. Sept in this case is probably more appropriate as a collective term describing a group of persons of immediate ancestry bearing a common family name and inhabiting a specific geograpic territory. A "clan" tended to have a chieftain at its head, whereas an Irish "sept", such as the O'Briens in the book in question, tended to have kings or even High Kings.

Thank you for the splendid explanation!
All of this matters for our language, as I have said.

Muscovite

Aard wrote: »

Only if you pronounce it like the Irish do. When Ilya asks about <cup> vs <bush>, she is talking about [ʌ] vs [ʊ]. The British (amongst others) make this distinction, whereas the Irish (amongst others) conflate them. We always pronounce it the latter. The <u> in <Munster> is pronounced like the <u> in <bush>.



(Apologies for being a pedant, but I imagine this is important for a book on Ireland for foreigners)

Thank you! As for Munster, it is really important because preserving the national flavour is necessary when interpreting literature (this is my position, and I believe it to be justified). I want the readers to see Ireland as it was and as the author sees it, not just another battle saga. Due to my education I know a lot about the Northmen, but as for the Celts, all that is said here is a great help.

Just one thing - Ilya is a man's name, no matter how strange it sounds) It is Greek by origin, since our first alphabet was introduced by Greek monks who brought Christianity. Ilya of Murom (a town in Russia) was a great ancient Russian legendary hero, like Cú Chulainn, perhaps.

http://varvar.ru/arhiv/gallery/russian/vasnetsov_v_m/images/bogatyri.jpg

In this picture by Vasnetsov Ilya of Murom is in the centre, the one on the white horse is Dobrynya Nikitich (ich = son of..., so this Dobrynya, son of Nikita), and the youngest of them, holding a bow, is Alesha Popovich. They all are legendary Russian warriors.

Aard

Sorry, Ilya: I thought it was a female name because it ended in "a".


Can you read IPA? If so, I can show how the different words you asked for are pronounced.

Muscovite

Aard wrote: »

Sorry, Ilya: I thought it was a female name because it ended in "a".


Can you read IPA? If so, I can show how the different words you asked for are pronounced.

That's ok)) It is a common thing for Russian male names to end in a vowel, especially for the short forms (Michael - Misha; Nicholas - Kolya; Alexander - Sasha, etc.)

Sure, I can, being a linguist) So it would be just fine!

Aard

Munster: *
Fiacaid:
Oisín:
Fithir:
filidh:
seanchaí: [ʃa.nˠə'xi:]
Lachtna:

These appear not to be in Standard Irish orthography; I'm not sure of the exact pronunciation, so I'll let somebody else provide it!
- Echtigern
- Donncuan



*The [=] here denotes a syllabic [r]. The IPA symbol doesn't show, so I've used the X-SAMPA equivalent.

Muscovite

Aard wrote: »

Munster: *
Fiacaid:
Oisín:
Fithir:
filidh:
seanchaí: [ʃa.nˠə'xi:]
Lachtna:

These appear not to be in Standard Irish orthography; I'm not sure of the exact pronunciation, so I'll let somebody else provide it!
- Echtigern
- Donncuan



*The [=] here denotes a syllabic [r]. The IPA symbol doesn't show, so I've used the X-SAMPA equivalent.

Thanks, that's really helpful!

Muscovite

One more question, if I'm allowed...
I've come across the word "tartan" in the book several times, and I'm not quite certain about the translation. I know a lot about the Scottish tartan, but what about Ireland? A few men here, in the book, wear tartan trousers. Is it the same kind of cloth as in Scotland, with the same symbolic meaning?

onemorechance

Tartan = Breacáin

Aard

Muscovite wrote: »

Thanks, that's really helpful!

I made one mistake above: <Fiacaid> has a [k], not a [c] as I originally wrote.

mathepac

onemorechance wrote: »

Tartan = Breacáin

In my ancient edition of deBhaldraithe (1959) he gives this as 'breacán' and I wondered would this have a connection with 'breac' meaning either "trout" or "speckled". (sorry this is off-topic; I'm not a linguist).

mathepac

Muscovite wrote: »

... I've come across the word "tartan" in the book several times, and I'm not quite certain about the translation. I know a lot about the Scottish tartan, but what about Ireland? A few men here, in the book, wear tartan trousers. Is it the same kind of cloth as in Scotland, with the same symbolic meaning?

There is no evidence that I can find that tartan (in the generally accepted British sense of the word) was ever used as a heraldic device / clan symbol at any time before the late 17th century (at the very earliest) in Scotland or at any time in Ireland.

'Scottish' clan tartans date from the late 19th century and strangely their appearance coincides with the adoption by the German 'British' royal family of a 'Stewart tartan' as their own and the introduction of kilts in standardised colours by Scottish regiments in the British army as part of their uniform, starting with the 'Black Watch'.

The origin of the word 'tartan' seems to be French, tiretaine, a dyed fabric woven from wool and linen which might have produced the pattern similar to the 'tartan' we know today. This is from the only online reference I can access for free - http://books.google.ie/books?id=_ARas9X4ptwC&pg=PA77&dq=tiretaine&hl=en&ei=wXI8TKfQFouOjAfjpeWnAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tiretaine&f=false (go to Page 75).

So what does all this mean for the 10th century Irish characters in the book? Well I believe it is unlikely they would have worn trousers sporting British tartan, nor would they have worn trousers made from tiretaine. I do believe they could have worn trousers made from unbleached wool, knitted or woven, which were not of a single colour and which for warmth and water-proofing, would still have had the lanolin from the sheep. Think ancient forms of Aran (note: single 'r' it's important) sweaters.

onemorechance

mathepac wrote: »

In my ancient edition of deBhaldraithe (1959) he gives this as 'breacán' and I wondered would this have a connection it with 'breac' meaning either "trout" or "speckled". (sorry this is off-topic; I'm not a linguist).

I have no idea about that, but it would make sense.

Muscovite

Thank you for the answers!

Could you please help with two more names:

Tirechan
Gormlaith

dory

Muscovite wrote: »

Thank you for the answers!

Could you please help with two more names:

Tirechan
Gormlaith

If Aard is still around he'll do it better with the IPA.

I'm not sure about the first one.

But in Munster we'd say Gore (like Al Gore ) - mmm (like tasty food) - la (like the tellytubby lala). I sure some part of the country would pronounce the 'th' at the end.

I'm really terrible at this, hopefully someone will come along soon who can help. As an Irish speaker and a (really terrible) Russian speaker I'd love to read the book when it's done!