Book by book, verse by verse

Fanny Cradock

I'm proposing an on-line bible study. For ease we could choose a translation and take a look at a particular book in quantities of text that would be easily digestible before going on to the next section. I'm wondering would we have the numbers, the knowledge and the will?

A poll is attached to give me an idea if this idea has any legs.

antiskeptic

No

It'd be an interesting one to glean from others insights. Great idea!

Fanny Cradock

No

We will see what way the numbers go. But, yeah, it could be very profitable. If anything does happen, I would imagine that this would be strictly a "Christian Spirited Responses" thread.

antiskeptic

No

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

We will see what way the numbers go. But, yeah, it could be very profitable. If anything does happen, I would imagine that this would be strictly a "Christian Spirited Responses" thread.

If Wolfsbane signs up can we do Romans? Can we Fanny? Can we?

Fanny Cradock

No

antiskeptic wrote: »

If Wolfsbane signs up can we do Romans? Can we Fanny? Can we?

Only if you kids eat all your vegetables.

philologos

No

I'm all for this, and depending on demand it could even become a regular thing, one of the real plusses of the Christianity forum even. We should try do a thread on each book in the Bible

JimiTime

No

Sounds great, but would only be interested in it if its Christian only tbh. I don't mean 'Christian spirited' neither. Thats just diplomacy for diplomacy's sake IMO.

homer911

Mods will need to keep on top of the threads and make a sensible decision on how long the debate on any one chapter should go on for. The problem will be with tangental discussion as you cant study one book of the bible in isolation

I do like the idea of a virtual bible study though...

Fanny Cradock

No

homer911 wrote: »

Mods will need to keep on top of the threads and make a sensible decision on how long the debate on any one chapter should go on for.

I'm open to the finer points

homer911 wrote: »

you cant study one book of the bible in isolation

I was hoping this is exactly what we would do. I'm not saying that there would be no reference allowed to other books, but I was thinking that we could avoid the tangential discussions when possible and focus on specific chapter and verses within a book.

Soul Winner

No

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm proposing an on-line bible study. For ease we could choose a translation and take a look at a particular book in quantities of text that would be easily digestible before going on to the next section. I'm wondering would we have the numbers, the knowledge and the will?

A poll is attached to give me an idea if this idea has any legs.

When does it start?

www.biblos.com is a great resource for lining up the the various English translations to see how they differ from each other, plus it has hyperlinks from every word back to the original languages so we could study those in order to get a richer meaning of the verses under scrutiny than what the English language affords. Then read the verses or chapters again based on this newly learned original intension of the writer. It is amazing how many familiar verse in scripture will take on a whole new meaning when studied in this way.

Fanny Cradock

No

Soul Winner wrote: »

When does it start?

www.biblos.com is a great resource for lining up the the various English translations to see how they differ from each other, plus it has hyperlinks from every word back to the original languages so we could study those in order to get a richer meaning of the verses under scrutiny than what the English language affords. Then read the verses or chapters again based on this newly learned original intension of the writer. It is amazing how many familiar verse in scripture will take on a whole new meaning when studied in this way.

Let's see if we can get 10 yes votes. After that goal is achieved then we have to work on the finer details.

strobe

No

JimiTime wrote: »

Sounds great, but would only be interested in it if its Christian only tbh. I don't mean 'Christian spirited' neither. Thats just diplomacy for diplomacy's sake IMO.

That's not very Christian of you Jimi. What would be wrong with myself, for example, posting to ask questions about the verses or offering thoughts on them as long as it is in a "Christian spirited" manner, i.e. working on the presumption that Jesus is the son of God?

Fanny Cradock

No

strobe wrote: »

That's not very Christian of you Jimi. What would be wrong with myself, for example, posting to ask questions about the verses or offering thoughts on them as long as it is in a "Christian spirited" manner, i.e. working on the presumption that Jesus is the son of God?

Jimi's reluctance may arise from past interactions on this forum. I'm specifically talking about interesting threads that have been ruined because people (and it really only takes one or two) couldn't resist creating discord.

For my part, I have no problem with allowing non-Christians to post as long as we can all avoid the usual arguments by operating under certain presuppositions. With this in mind, I would be surprised if non-Christians didn't have some valuable input to offer.

JimiTime

No

strobe wrote: »

That's not very Christian of you Jimi.

And on what authority do you declare what is and what isn't Christian? Can you give your process in distinguishing how you identified my motives and saw to my heart?

Or to put it another way, Your comment is meaningless to me.

Fanny Cradock

No

OK folks, let's not turn this into a spat.

JimiTime

No

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Jimi's reluctance may arise from past interactions on this forum. I'm specifically talking about interesting threads that have been ruined because people (and it really only takes one or two) couldn't resist creating discord.

Thats certainly a part of it. However, I think of posters like Charco etc that have frequented this forum. They present arguements very 'matter of factly' and frame them as historic facts etc. Then someone like PDN usually has to write an essay to correct him etc. I'd rather just cut stuff like that out completely, and save folk like PDN the hassle of rebuttal. This is a Christian discussion IMO, and there'll be enough hammering out of details between the faithful without throwing others into the mix. This is more than just an intellectual or academic discussion IMO.

Of course, thats just me. I can choose to take part or not to. If people want to be diplomatic, thats fine, but I thought I'd throw in my two cent.

Fanny Cradock

No

I understand that and it is certainly something that we would have to guard against. However, I would like to start off with good grace towards all. The situation could be reviewed if needs be.

strobe

No

JimiTime wrote: »

And on what authority do you declare what is and what isn't Christian? Can you give your process in distinguishing how you identified my motives and saw to my heart?

Or to put it another way, Your comment is meaningless to me.

Consider it happily retracted so..

santing

No

We have to start with Genesis though.

philologos

No

Since we've exceeded the 10 people. I'd also suggest that you make one thread for each chapter, and then merge them as completed into a locked megathread so that each chapter can be done at a time without dwelling on previous content. Then after the study, reopen the Genesis thread, let's say, for general comment, and so on until all are covered.

PDN

No

I think Genesis would be the worst place to start. Creationist debate from day one will derail all else.

I suggest one of the Gospels.

JimiTime

No

PDN wrote: »

I think Genesis would be the worst place to start. Creationist debate from day one will derail all else.

I suggest one of the Gospels.

Agree 100%. The creation account will come into it from the gospel though. The lineage in Matthew will raise the obvious questions. I think the NT is the place the start though, and obviously there will be countless references to the OT.

Fanny Cradock

No

santing wrote: »

We have to start with Genesis though.

Two concessions. Firstly, I see the undeniable logic of starting at the beginning of any story. Secondly, I certainly acknowledge that the NT is best understood as part of a larger story - one that that very much includes the OT. However, given the nature of internet forums, and being mindful that this is our first foray into the world of on-line bible study, it might be best to start our trial run with the stuff people are most familiar with. This means the NT.




I'm wondering what ground rules we should operate under Suggestions welcome! Perhaps we could limit the amount of text quoted to about 15 (?) verses with a week to comment on them before we move on to the next 15. Perhaps we should just work off chapters if they are small enough?

By way of example, below is an example of the first 15 verses from John. I'm not sure if this is too much or too little

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "

lmaopml

No

Probably best to work off a chapter if it's small enough to do so, as sometimes the end of a chapter can clarify something raised at the beginning and shed more light on what the author meant...? Unless we can reference points further on when studying the 15 verses?

Only if it's not too long I guess though...Otherwise the 15 verses look good to me...

Esther Greene

No

I'm all for this, Ms. Craddock, but would suggest a good, mixed ( women and men) panel of theologian-scripture scholars to be included as well. Otherwise, it will be 'all over the place', have no 'centre' and, perhaps become a slagging forum for certain people. It would be useless. For those who seek knowledge, it would be a boon. Anything pertaining to God is away above anybody's head and needs much prayer, meditation, and, yes, contemplation. The great Teresa of Avila posited that meditation was akin to drawing water from a River, or Well, using buckets, but contemplation is being revitalized and refreshed by a gentle shower of rain. So, prayer and meditation come first and can be tedious, but rewarding. Practice makes them easier. Studying the Books of the Bible require all three: Prayer, Meditatation and Contemplation.:)

Fanny Cradock

No

I had completely forgotten about this. Head like a sieve!

While it would be nice to have some trained theologians on board we simply don't have them amongst our members. Bar one person, PDN, I think we are all laypeople. But maybe that isn't such a bad thing! Fresh perspectives and all that.

Anyway, leave this with me and I'll draw up some ground rules over the next few days so we don't go all over the place. Please feel free to keep suggestions coming.

Esther Greene

No

There are many qualified and excellent lay women and men scripture scholars and theologians in Ireland. Contact Milltown Park for suggestions.

Esther Greene

No

An excellent, qualified Facilitator is needed for this, Ms Craddock. Otherwise, people will squabble. As I've already suggested, Prayer is a necessity. Perhaps each section could be begun, in this way, by an appropriate quiet-meditative post/thread. Another suggestion: the quote from John 1 is much too long. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning". is sufficient. One could be WEEKS just trying to tease this out. Sharing, not confrontation, should be the true quality of this Thread. Prayerful sharing.

prinz

No

Esther Greene wrote: »

An excellent, qualified Facilitator is needed for this, Ms Craddock. Otherwise, people will squabble.

We have excellent facilitators/moderators.

Fanny Cradock

No

I tend to agree with prinz. Not because I fancy my own moderating abilities, but simply because the moderating system has worked up until now. Are you familiar with how it works? We really only have a very limited number of Christian posters who frequent the forum. So I'm not sure where this facilitator will come from - or why they are even needed.

As for teasing out passages, I agree that we could spend a great deal of time arguing the finer points, and this is why I was hoping we could agree on a time limit that would ensure we move on with the larger project.

P.S. It's Mr. Cradock

eblistic

No

JimiTime wrote: »

Sounds great, but would only be interested in it if its Christian only tbh. I don't mean 'Christian spirited' neither. Thats just diplomacy for diplomacy's sake IMO.

Ah, let's insulate ourselves from criticism again.

Well rather than pick on your insecurity on your own patch would there be any appetite for a general category under Religion that is open to all? There are plenty of non-religious people who might like to discuss the details of your bible(s) as well as other revealed texts. These are, after all, texts whose rules are imposed on us against our wishes all too often. Not to mention some of the activities of the loonier fringes. I'm not sure how this kind of thing would be set up but couldn't a combination of mods from these Religion forums also moderate an all-inclusive area?

antiskeptic

No

eblistic wrote: »

Ah, let's insulate ourselves from criticism again.

Well rather than pick on your insecurity on your own patch would there be any appetite for a general category under Religion that is open to all? There are plenty of non-religious people who might like to discuss the details of your bible(s) as well as other revealed texts. These are, after all, texts whose rules are imposed on us against our wishes all too often. Not to mention some of the activities of the loonier fringes. I'm not sure how this kind of thing would be set up but couldn't a combination of mods from these Religion forums also moderate an all-inclusive area?

The problem is, I think, one of mission. The Christian position would be that non-Christians are spiritually blind and so can't understand that which is spiritually discerned. If the discussion includes non-Christians then it will have to be pitched at (or will be restrained by) the intellectual realm - for that is the only realm a non-Christian can hope to operate at. If however, the mission is 'spiritual insights enabling the growth of Christians' then it really requires the participants are pushing off from spiritual foundations, something which isn't all that dependent on intellectual ability.

And seeing as only Christians have these spiritual foundations it makes no sense (that I can see) to widen the scope to include non-Christians. One-size-fits-all tends not to fit anything particularly well.

JimiTime

No

eblistic wrote: »

Ah, let's insulate ourselves from criticism again.

Not at all. Its a combination of stopping ourselves from having to deal with gobsh!tes and also being able to talk about the subject matter without having to explain basics to those who are not familiar with the subject and those people taking it as a simple intellectual exercise. Some of us don't actually care about criticism you know.

Well rather than pick on your insecurity on your own patch would there be any appetite for a general category under Religion that is open to all? There are plenty of non-religious people who might like to discuss the details of your bible(s) as well as other revealed texts. These are, after all, texts whose rules are imposed on us against our wishes all too often. Not to mention some of the activities of the loonier fringes. I'm not sure how this kind of thing would be set up but couldn't a combination of mods from these Religion forums also moderate an all-inclusive area?

As I said, Its a combination of keeping out the gobsh!tes and those who need a basic education in the subject matter.

I'm merely a poster here though, so just because I'd like to keep folk like yourself out of the discussion, does not mean it will happen. I think input from people like yourself will make it a waste of time though. We'd have to be dealing with your ill informed opinions and ignorance etc. Probably lots more accusations of insecurity etc too. I'd rather just cut out the diplomacy, and have a thread I can enjoy and learn from without having to try rebut nonsense posts like your own.

But maybe thats just me.

Esther Greene

No

Jesus has all that we need to create a solid foundation for our lives. I feel that it takes 2 things:
1. Listening to Jesus in the NT
2. Acting on what we hear
When we build our lives on Jesus' strong foundation, there can be nothing that can cause us to collapse.

Fanny Cradock

No

eblistic wrote: »

Ah, let's insulate ourselves from criticism again.

Well rather than pick on your insecurity on your own patch would there be any appetite for a general category under Religion that is open to all? There are plenty of non-religious people who might like to discuss the details of your bible(s) as well as other revealed texts. These are, after all, texts whose rules are imposed on us against our wishes all too often. Not to mention some of the activities of the loonier fringes. I'm not sure how this kind of thing would be set up but couldn't a combination of mods from these Religion forums also moderate an all-inclusive area?

Oddly enough, this forum also serves the purpose of being a point where Christians can discuss their faith. It is balderdash to suggest that we insulate ourselves against hostile opinions. While you are reviewing the charter I suggest you take a look at the other threads. Plenty of criticism there.

eblistic

No

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Oddly enough, this forum also serves the purpose of being a point where Christians can discuss their faith. It is balderdash to suggest that we insulate ourselves against hostile opinions. While you are reviewing the charter I suggest you take a look at the other threads. Plenty of criticism there.

Ok, but doesn't the idea of a neutral, all-inclusive forum on religious texts appeal to anyone here? Provocative language aside, anyone with the courage of their convictions would, surely, relish the opportunity to stand up for their sacred texts in such a forum?

To be honest, discussing them on a spiritual level won't appeal to many of my persuasion anyway.

antiskeptic

No

eblistic wrote: »

Ok, but doesn't the idea of a neutral, all-inclusive forum on religious texts appeal to anyone here? Provocative language aside, anyone with the courage of their convictions would, surely, relish the opportunity to stand up for their sacred texts in such a forum?

There are any number of open threads in which various viewpoints defend their viewpoints on their sacred texts. Whether or not a thread could be held together on something like a step-by-step through a whole book of the Bible is open to question .. but there's nothing to stop you trying.

What kind of tack would you take?

To be honest, discussing them on a spiritual level won't appeal to many of my persuasion anyway.

Hence the suggestion that a thread dedicated to the spiritual building-up of Christians be closed to those who couldn't be expected to 'get it' - but who could be expected (through no fault of their own) to derail the central aim.

Fanny Cradock

No

eblistic wrote: »

Ok, but doesn't the idea of a neutral, all-inclusive forum on religious texts appeal to anyone here? Provocative language aside, anyone with the courage of their convictions would, surely, relish the opportunity to stand up for their sacred texts in such a forum?

To be honest, discussing them on a spiritual level won't appeal to many of my persuasion anyway.

Personally, no. But suggest it in the form requests section. Again, I feel compelled to warn you about your inability to post with being provocative. Last chance, bub.

SonOfAdam

No

.. Hence the suggestion that a thread dedicated to the spiritual building-up of Christians be closed to those who couldn't be expected to 'get it' - but who could be expected (through no fault of their own) to derail the central aim.

Hi Antiskeptic

I think that's a good idea but as I'm new I have no idea if that is even possible.

TravelJunkie

No

I would like this. I would agree it would need to start with NT. I would also agree it would be christian only, or, is it possible for it to be a subscribed thread that is pre-approved?

Fanny Cradock

No

Let me look into the options that are available on vBulliten and chat to the admins.

Jellybaby1

Hello all, I am new in here. Online Bible Study is a great idea. I have attended many ordinary Bible Studies in my time the majority of which were extremely successful and everyone enjoyed the experience. The only one that fell apart was when two factions just could not agree on a teaching because half were from one religion and half were from another and both had been taught to believe what their own church taught. Which is a pity and I believe those involved were not open hearted to learning.

There has already been a lot of debate between you regarding what to do and how to get it going. Could I just suggest you run an online Alpha course. I believe Bible Studies are primarily for those who are searching for answers, Christians and non-Christians, the people who go to Alpha Bible Studies are from all walks of life. What do you think?