Moral dilemma - part deux

Russman

Hey gang,

Was going to dig up the earlier thread but this seemed easier.....

Imagine the situation, inter club match (foresomes), first hole, one of the guys' 8 year old son is caddying for him and the kid touches the surface of the green with the flagstick on an extension, beyond the hole, of the line of the putt being lined up. The opposition duly claim the hole, the match continues in stony silence and the guys who claimed the hole are beaten on the 19th - delicious irony or what.
Even the team manager of the two claimants apologised for the actions of his players.

Would I be alone in thinking the guys would have been better off saying nothing ? or quietly mentioning it after the hole was finished, and maybe enjoying their game ?

And, no, I'm not suggesting we draw up a list of rules that are to be ignored

seven-iron

i wouldnt have said anything. 8 year old kid aint goina know any better. and some serious headed asshole is only going put a kid off golf by saying bringing up meticulous rules at that age. Always enjoy the golf.

Benny Cake

Why the hell would you have your 8 year old kid caddying for an important match?

G1032

I've heard it all now. Pulling an 8 year old kid on a technicality like that. Poor form IMO. Delighted to hear they lost on the 19th after doing that.

f22

You'd have to be some pedantic wanker to pull a stunt like that on a child. Justice was done with the final result.

DonkeyPokerTour

Slightly Off Topic, but say a player is holding the flag for me and is resting his putter on the putting surface. If his putter happends to be exactly my line, do I have to tell him to move it or what? I dont mean my partner in a fourball but say a fellow competitor in singles?

OneColdHand

It's a bit silly calling it alright. I certainly wouldn't do it. It's only going to annoy the other guys, as they showed by going on and winning the match.

Also as D Red Army says, why was a kid caddying in a match like that?!?

DonkeyPokerTour: I don't believe so.

Russman

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

Slightly Off Topic, but say a player is holding the flag for me and is resting his putter on the putting surface. If his putter happends to be exactly my line, do I have to tell him to move it or what? I dont mean my partner in a fourball but say a fellow competitor in singles?

Don't know for sure, but I doubt it

Jasonw

I'll start by saying that I personally wouldn't have claimed the hole in that senario.

But....

the team who had an 8 year old caddy are only looking for trouble especially in inter club which some people take very seriously. Remember that ultimately you are responsible for everything your caddy or your playing partners caddy does.

I went out to watch our own interclub team play over the weekend and saw one of our younger players walking down the fairway with 3 of his friends. all it would take is one comment that could be construed as advise from one of them to be in trouble. I also watched a senior player allow his fellow compeditor to redrop because the ball had rolled just over 1 clublength when taking relief from a drain. He should have known it was 2.

I think that when playing at that level there should be some requirement to have a good grasp of the rules and also to ensure that your caddy does too.

I blame the team captain for allowing the player to have an 8 year old caddy.

Russman

I'd agree with that in general, definitely. In hindsight it was obviously an accident waiting to happen.
I guess the other point would be maybe we're (by that I mean some people) starting to take inter club a little too seriously. Being competitive is fine and inter club is brilliant for the cut and thrust of match play especially in a team environment, but I do think a line was crossed there - they were within the rules alright but still.........not nice.

lfp

I've never played in an inter club comp, but I find the idea of bringing your 8 year old son along as a caddie as a wonderful idea. It introduces the kid to golf at a competitive level and gives father and son an activity to bond over. I would like to think it would instill a love of the game in the young kid. The fact the poor 8 year old probably felt like he let his Dad and the golf club down makes the actions of the opposition all the more disgraceful.

I can just imagine the father and son lining up a putt and the Dad pretending to take the sons advice and then holing the putt. The son thinks he's a great lad because firstly his advice worked and secondly his Dad listened to his advice. The kid would be mad to get out and hit balls himself after moments like that!!! I hope to god the son wasn't turned off the game for good after that pr*ck.

If I were playing in a comp and a team mate of mine tried that I would literally tell him to shut up and say nothing or I'm walking off and conceding the match!

L.O.F.T

f22 wrote: »

You'd have to be some pedantic wanker to pull a stunt like that on a child. Justice was done with the final result.

Russman wrote: »

I guess the other point would be maybe we're (by that I mean some people) starting to take inter club a little too seriously. Being competitive is fine and inter club is brilliant for the cut and thrust of match play especially in a team environment, but I do think a line was crossed there - they were within the rules alright but still.........not nice.

Its a game and very few make a living from it and should lighten up, a quite word on the way to the next tee would have been more appropriate. Why should the player in question not bring his 8 year old with him, he should be proud and perhaps inspire the young boy to play golf at such a young age. What was done by claiming the hole was petty and smacks of trying to be the big man.

soundsham

some people just derseve to be punched in the head repeatedly......

GreeBo

I dont see that they had any basis to claim the hole the be honest.
The caddy (what were they thinking!) wasnt indicating the line of the putt so there is no rule broken/penalty.

Rule 8.2 wrote:

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched.

This rule does not say that you cannot touch the green...otherwise walking would be pretty difficult. Its similar to the often incorrectly brought up "must not roll a ball on the green" rule. The rule is that you cannot test the green by rolling a ball. I often see people try to penalise someone for rolling a ball back to their bag etc.

Mister Sifter

soundsham wrote: »

some people just derseve to be punched in the head repeatedly......

ahh come on, he's only 8.

johnnyfardel

Mister Sifter wrote: »

ahh come on, he's only 8.

I laughed...

soundsham

+1:D

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont see that they had any basis to claim the hole the be honest.
The caddy (what were they thinking!) wasnt indicating the line of the putt so there is no rule broken/penalty.



This rule does not say that you cannot touch the green...otherwise walking would be pretty difficult. Its similar to the often incorrectly brought up "must not roll a ball on the green" rule. The rule is that you cannot test the green by rolling a ball. I often see people try to penalise someone for rolling a ball back to their bag etc.

+1 on the face of it, but the GUI were called and ruled for the guys claiming. It seems the kid was pointing at a line alright (or, in fairness, given that he's only 8, probably trying to look like he was pointing at a line), so strictly speaking there was an infringement.

The consensus, from both teams (apart from the pairing who brought it up), was that it was something that should never have been raised. Or if it was to be raised, a quite word with the parent on the way to the next tee would have been more appropriate.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

+1 on the face of it, but the GUI were called and ruled for the guys claiming. It seems the kid was pointing at a line alright (or, in fairness, given that he's only 8, probably trying to look like he was pointing at a line), so strictly speaking there was an infringement.

The consensus, from both teams (apart from the pairing who brought it up), was that it was something that should never have been raised. Or if it was to be raised, a quite word with the parent on the way to the next tee would have been more appropriate.

In that case I guess they were within their rights.
I do think 8 is just too young to be caddying in a serious game of golf though.

Russman

Oh they were definitely within their rights, no doubt about it. I think its just a sad indictment of the mentality of some players to be honest.

GreeBo

Played yesterday in the Jimmy Bruen @ WoodBrook and the place was full of "club" people telling their players how the other groups were standing...tsk tsk..We could have qualified just by getting everyone else kicked out


(Or I could have not played like a cabbage )

Russman

You know, I heard something about a big row in the Pierce Purcell a few weeks ago in Castlewarden over that very thing. Apparently the world and its mother was giving info/tips/advice to one team. Another team called it and the GUI eventually just said "play on lads" !! I think one side actually had more "caddies" than players at one stage !:D

Mister Sifter

Interclub golf - bringing the arsehole out in even the nicest of people since blah blah blah...

downthemiddle

GreeBo wrote: »

Played yesterday in the Jimmy Bruen @ WoodBrook and the place was full of "club" people telling their players how the other groups were standing...tsk tsk..We could have qualified just by getting everyone else kicked out


)

This is information not advice so allowed. You need a legal degree to fully understand the rules of golf.

fullstop

GreeBo wrote: »

Played yesterday in the Jimmy Bruen @ WoodBrook and the place was full of "club" people telling their players how the other groups were standing...tsk tsk..We could have qualified just by getting everyone else kicked out


(Or I could have not played like a cabbage )

What's wrong with that?

Obni

lfp wrote: »

I've never played in an inter club comp, but I find the idea of bringing your 8 year old son along as a caddie as a wonderful idea.

Couldn't agree less.
I may be in the minority, but I would have claimed the hole. Indeed, as you cannot choose which rules of golf to enforce and which to ignore, I would have had no choice.
If the opposition have so little respect for the match that they treat it either as a creche or as a soft-focus father/son bonding moment, then they deserve what they get.

GreeBo

Obni wrote: »

Couldn't agree less.
I may be in the minority, but I would have claimed the hole. Indeed, as you cannot choose which rules of golf to enforce and which to ignore, I would have had no choice.
If the opposition have so little respect for the match that they treat it either as a creche or as a soft-focus father/son bonding moment, then they deserve what they get.

+0.5

Not knowing the exact circumstances Im not sure if I would have brought it up at all. If it was obvious that the kid was saying "hit it here daddy..whack" then I guess I had no choice but to claim it.

Its incredibly inappropriate to have a child of that age caddying. I didnt caddy for my father until I was in my teens, and even then it would only be in singles where I could only F him up.

stockdam

I wouldn't have said anything but maybe would have had a quiet word to prevent it happening again.

However it's hard to know where to stop and that's why it is easier to always stick to the rules. What if the young guy had kicked the ball accidentally in the rough.........would you call that one?

The onus seems to be on the other side having common sense and "ignoring" infringements. However it should be on the "infringing" side to ensure that rules are not broken even if an 8 year old is caddying. What was he doing on the green anyway?

The more I think about it the more I agree that the infringement should be called if seen otherwise you wander off into silly debates about what rules should and shouldn't be upheld. All the rules should apply and none should be waived irrespective of the circumstances. Never should a team/player be annoyed for being penalised because it is never the other side's fault but always the fault of the infringing side. I hate this nonsense when the "calling" side are made to feel like they did something wrong or tried to use the rules to their advantage. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Breaking the rules should always be penalised even if an 8 year old kid is your caddy.

stockdam

In matchplay you can decide what infringements to call.

However at no time should anyone be made to feel bad about calling. As I said it's up to each player/team to make sure that no rules are broken.

Team captains or players should not get into arguments about whether an infringement should be called. The assumption should be that if the other team sees an infringement then they are entitled to call it no matter what. There are no occasions when a player/team should expect not to be penalised.

It should never be the case that a team/player won on a technicality........it's always the infringing team/player who lost it.

I understand why people would be annoyed at this example when an 8 year old was involved. However it was up to the father to take the responsibility and to explain to the kid that no blame is on the kid.

Russman

I can see that side of it alright and agree to a point, and in an ideal world, yes, but unfortunately we don't live in one and human nature and emotions are a factor, albeit not considered in the rules.

Of course having a kid caddying was potentially problematic, and I assume the father would have told him not to kick the ball, but I can't imagine any father going through all the possible pitfalls with an 8 year old.

Why did the manager of the claimants apologise for the behaviour of his players ? Because he felt bad and it was a disgusting thing to do on the very first hole, even if they were within the rules, in my humble opinion. I'm not going into the "what rules do we ignore ?" debate as thats just silly, but surely 4 hours of bad feeling, terseness and silence wasn't worth it when a little common sense could have prevailed ? As you said, a quiet word on the way to the next tee would have been perfect, and probably greatly appreciated by the "offending" team if done in that manner. They might even give a putt later in the match :-)

I agree nobody should expect an infringement to go unpunished but, if in matchplay you can choose what to call, then perhaps its ok for people to feel bad about calling something or question whether to do it or not.

Not really relevant but that both teams were similar distance from the hole (maybe 15 feet ish) and the claimants had played one shot more so they were favourites to lose or at best halve the hole - also added to the mood.

Anyway if you're taking lines on a green from a kid you're in big trouble anyway

Anakin.S

A guy that plays in my Saturday Fourball did the same thing (not a kid though) and after conceding the hole their opponents called them on every little thing for the rest of the round, their 4 hour round turned into a 5 1/2 hour argument with the guy I know losing on the 18th making an opponent putt a 4 inch putt.

What’s the point? Rules are rules but correct interpretation should come into effect as well as sportsmanship

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

but surely 4 hours of bad feeling, terseness and silence wasn't worth it when a little common sense could have prevailed ?

Surely the common sense thing to do was not have an 8 year old involved at all?

Russman wrote: »

As you said, a quiet word on the way to the next tee would have been perfect, and probably greatly appreciated by the "offending" team if done in that manner. They might even give a putt later in the match :-)

Mu understanding of the rules is that once its brought up it has to be punished or you are both DQ'ed. However I think if you bring it up after you have started the next hole its ok.

People getting stroppy because they have been called on a rule is just immature. These people should be ignored and beaten. (in the match of course

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

Surely the common sense thing to do was not have an 8 year old involved at all?


Mu understanding of the rules is that once its brought up it has to be punished or you are both DQ'ed. However I think if you bring it up after you have started the next hole its ok.

People getting stroppy because they have been called on a rule is just immature. These people should be ignored and beaten. (in the match of course

I'm not able to multi quote properly !

+1 to the common sense in having the 8 year old caddying - an accident waiting to happen.

+1 to once the hole is over, its over - pretty sure thats the case in matchplay.

The stroppy thing is simplifying it a little in fairness, if something is viewed as very unsporting its understandable. I think that will very much depend on the particular rule being called and the circumstances. You can't expect someone who's just had the first hole claimed because his kid touched the green to make small talk after that ?
It'd be like the time Seve and Ollie argued with the Yanks over the compression ball they were using

Gophur

Russman wrote: »

...............
It'd be like the time Seve and Ollie argued with the Yanks over the compression ball they were using

In that case the Americans were teeing off with a hard ball and going for the green with a different, softer ball. A slightly different situation.

As for the OP? No team Captain should have allowed any of his team use a child as a caddy. Either the contest is serious, or it is not.

Russman

Gophur wrote: »

In that case the Americans were teeing off with a hard ball and going for the green with a different, softer ball. A slightly different situation.

As for the OP? No team Captain should have allowed any of his team use a child as a caddy. Either the contest is serious, or it is not.

I was being light hearted about the Yanks, but I think they were changing ball between holes, not during a hole.

Agree about the child caddy but, while its serious, the contest should never get too serious at the same time.

Dammo

"Oh look at me, I know every rule in the book (and I'm damned if a snotty 8 year old is going to stop me from showing it!!)".

Some people need to lighten up ffs. Only consolation is that you don't have to live with one of these pedants.