We , as a nation got what we deserved

WalterMitty

So everone blames the bankers and the politicians and the developers but the real people to blame are the Irish people.
The Irish people elected politicians from blatantly corrupt parties for decades. Even after a politician was found to have acting inappropriately he was often reelected. We as a People admired rogues.

We as shareholders in the banks voted at AGMs for the policies of the banks or we did via our pension funds.

We the Irish people became consumed with greed and materialism and borrowed hundreds of billions and when people said it was unsustainable they were called begrudgers and doommongers by the majority.

Not every person did the above but in a democracy the majority is all that is required to implement crazy policies and prevent lax regulation.

kinseydub

+1

kuntboy

Luckily we live in an era of plentiful food so it doesn't really matter (for now).

Count Dooku

"Every country has the government it deserves"

Joseph Marie de Maistre (French Diplomat, Writer, Philosopher and Politician, 1753-1821)

20Cent

Rubbish.
This "we are all to blame" stuff is crap.
Its used to deflect from those who actually are to blame.

peasant

20Cent wrote: »

Rubbish.
This "we are all to blame" stuff is crap.
Its used to deflect from those who actually are to blame.

It takes greedy and gullible buyers to create a property bubble.

To create a property bubble of recent dimensions in a country of four miserly million takes an awful lot of greedy and gullible eejits. A handful of politiciancs, bankers and developers couldn't sustain it on their own.

Sand

Personal responsibility vs. systematic responsibility people.

Theres a difference.

worded

"We have all to tighten our belts .... " CJH

Enough people voted for CJH and he got away with everything and passed his ill gotten gains to his family.

From that time the cute Whore Bertie was nurtured.

I think we did indeed get the government we deserved. Cute whores.

yermanoffthetv

WalterMitty wrote: »

We the Irish people became consumed with greed and materialism and borrowed hundreds of billions and when people said it was unsustainable they were called begrudgers and doommongers by the majority.

Thats not the case, residential property loans are a relatively stable earner for the banks(look at perminant tsb who avoided large commercial lending-no bailout), its the billions in commercial loans thats causing the problem. The multitude of tax breaks also skewed the property market creating a glut in supply while keeping prices up. Pointing the finger at the Irish public and saying "you greedy bastard, thats what you get" is a lazy and insulting way of deflecting responsibility from those who caused the problem.

Fighting Irish

20Cent wrote: »

Rubbish.
This "we are all to blame" stuff is crap.
Its used to deflect from those who actually are to blame.

:rolleyes:

FruitLover

What's this 'we' business? A load of culchies and thickos voted (yet again) for FF and the rest of us got shafted due to inferior numbers.

lmimmfn

course we're to blame, in a 'democracy' the people are responsible for the state of the country, blame the politicians all you want but nobody seemed to care when times were good and the government were running amok with their incentives for building/buying houses, i dont remember anyone out protesting then?

Banned Account

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Thats not the case, residential property loans are a relatively stable earner for the banks(look at perminant tsb who avoided large commercial lending-no bailout), its the billions in commercial loans thats causing the problem. The multitude of tax breaks also skewed the property market creating a glut in supply while keeping prices up. Pointing the finger at the Irish public and saying "you greedy bastard, thats what you get" is a lazy and insulting way of deflecting responsibility from those who caused the problem.

Disagree to a point. Permanent TSB are in trouble, that's why Irish Life have farmed it off to a seperate company hoping it will be merged into a super mutual - they were far too reliant on money market lending and have a huge issue with loans to deposit ratios.

Secondly, the value of mortgages currently in arrears is €6.1 billion - this figure does not include borrowers who have taken a moratorium, switched to interest only or come to an arrangement with the bank to pay a minimal sum for a peiod. At present the banks are accepting any offer - even €50 per month, as this means that the loan is not technically in arrears and the banks doesn't have to make bad debt provision.

Con servative estimates suggest that up to €18 billion of mortgages are problematic to the lenders - when one considers that the NAMA transfers for Anglo amount to €10 billion - this puts the scale of the problems to come into perspective.

maximay

I agree that we have a crap government, but as Brian Cowen stated the opposition wanted more money spent at the time and they never stepped up, as stated by Garet Fitzgerald (I think) that the opposition never fought or spoke up about the property bubble that was being created either and as opposition this was their job. Voting for your local TD's that does something for you when you need it, seems in my life, the way to go. Also, yes people wanting to keep up with the Jones' with houses and cars and holidays that they couldn't afford, well tough, I sold my house three years ago and bought one basically the same size but with a garden, for 10k more, I could have got mortage for a lot lot more at the time, but I want to be able to buy my dinner, put petrol in my old car and not worrying where the next meal is coming from.The 'Cop On Factor' is very much missing for a lot of people.

Uuuh Patsy

peasant wrote: »

It takes greedy and gullible buyers to create a property bubble.

To create a property bubble of recent dimensions in a country of four miserly million takes an awful lot of greedy and gullible eejits. A handful of politiciancs, bankers and developers couldn't sustain it on their own.

But I only bought my house because I got married and wanted to have a family and didnt see the traveller life was for me... It never once crossed my mind to buy it to make money and as a matter of fact when I bought my first home in 2000 I was convinced it was then or never... Would you call me gullible or greedy..

danbohan

FruitLover wrote: »

What's this 'we' business? A load of culchies and thickos voted (yet again) for FF and the rest of us got shafted due to inferior numbers.

yes of course , what a wonderful country it would be if we only had the good sense to vote in the ''brothers '' from labour /sinn fein / socialist party in government, we would be the envy of Europe!!!

fliball123

I take offense to the OP statement...I mean if we are to blame for wanting to live in a house and raise a family. The question that should be asked is where is the tax money gone that people pay. I mean not so long agon the SSIA was in because we had too much money ... Where is it gone. I mean it certainly isnt gone on Education still lads in the prefabs, and sure our taxes pay for the teachers. Its not gone on Health as we must have a near 3rd world country Health service..doctors not knowing if your baby is alive or dead...Its not gone on infrastrure...I mean any decent road now has a toll bridge so I am paying everytime I am on it...So where is it gone.???

The politicians are so far up their own holes in this country..They have a choice of showing their expenses ...I mean the O.P must be a politician or an FF supporter or completely oblivous to the wows of this nation to post such a stupid discussion

nice1franko

Even in the last general election it seems a lot of people grumbling about FF still went off and voted for them again.

A case of the "The devil you know" maybe. A case of "we're not doing TOO badly so don't rock the boat" - definitely, IMO.

We* elected them and we got a fair representation of the people, did we not?

While I believe the blame largely lies with the government, people need to accept *a bit* of responsibility for at least for putting them there in the first place.

* by we, I mean yous bollixes

Banned Account

fliball123 wrote: »

I take offense to the OP statement...I mean if we are to blame for wanting to live in a house and raise a family. The question that should be asked is where is the tax money gone that people pay. I mean not so long agon the SSIA was in because we had too much money ... Where is it gone. I mean it certainly isnt gone on Education still lads in the prefabs, and sure our taxes pay for the teachers. Its not gone on Health as we must have a near 3rd world country Health service..doctors not knowing if your baby is alive or dead...Its not gone on infrastrure...I mean any decent road now has a toll bridge so I am paying everytime I am on it...So where is it gone.???

The politicians are so far up their own holes in this country..They have a choice of showing their expenses ...I mean the O.P must be a politician or an FF supporter or completely oblivous to the wows of this nation to post such a stupid discussion

Firstly, the right to shelter has to be differentiated from the bad judgement of entering into a poor contract.

Where is the money gone that people pay? I assume you are referring to taxes? B and large, it goes to provision of public services although, the various bailouts have begun to creep into the equation. You note yourself that our taxes pay for teachers - whetehr or not we get value for our money is a seperate question.

Toll plaza's do not pay for the roads up front - so this point is null and void.

Finally, before accusing another of stupidity, check up on the difference between "woe's" and "wow's"

20Cent

nice1franko wrote: »

Even in the last general election it seems a lot of people grumbling about FF still went off and voted for them again.

A case of the "The devil you know" maybe. A case of "we're not doing too badly so don't rock the boat" - definitely, IMO.

We* elected them and we got a fair representation of the people, did we not?

While I believe the blame largely lies with the government, people need to accept *a bit* of responsibility for at least for putting them there in the first place.

* by we, I mean yous bollixes

I never voted FF in my life.
I'm paying for their mistakes though.

who what when

Count Dooku wrote: »

"Every country has the government it deserves"

Joseph Marie de Maistre (French Diplomat, Writer, Philosopher and Politician, 1753-1821)

What did the peasentry of russia do to deserve Stalin.
Or Iraq, the cradle of humanity. How did they deserve the oppression of Saddam Hussein.
The sheer prosperity of south korea highlights how north koreas fortunes may have been vastly different if it wasnt for a little man called kim jung il.

And theres probably dozens of other examples of cases where people really dont deserve the government they get!

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

I never voted FF in my life.
I'm paying for their mistakes though.

What have you done to make sure that the right people have been elected ?

Vote once every 5 years ?

I love it when people say "I didnt vote FF" as if they can wash their hands of any responsibility. Not all Germans supported the Nazi's, but they all took some level of responsibility for the tragedy. Wow and look at their country now, its a responsibly run economy and they always seem to be able to get out of crisis alot quicker then the rest of us . . Collective responsibility is so underrated. .

In fact, I think this attitude is one of the huge stumbling blocks to our nations progression. People talk about lack of accountability by the politicians, the public service or the bankers. . Well what about the entire electorate ?

Not only were the ones who voted for government responsible, but the ones who voted for the lamest opposition have just as much to answer for . . No credible alternative . . Who were you voting for huh ?

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

What have you done to make sure that the right people have been elected ?

Vote once every 5 years ?

I love it when people say "I didnt vote FF" as if they can wash their hands of any responsibility. Not all Germans supported the Nazi's, but they all took some level of responsibility for the tragedy. Wow and look at their country now, its a responsibly run economy and they always seem to be able to get out of crisis alot quicker then the rest of us . . Collective responsibility is so underrated. .

In fact, I think this attitude is one of the huge stumbling blocks to our nations progression. People talk about lack of accountability by the politicians, the public service or the bankers. . Well what about the entire electorate ?

Not only were the ones who voted for government responsible, but the ones who voted for the lamest opposition have just as much to answer for . . No credible alternative . . Who were you voting for huh ?

The politicians, developers and bankers haven't accepted any responsibility. Why should I?

If the economy was still booming do you think we would have the National Share the Wealth association? No way. But when things go wrong we're all in it together (by all I mean the general public not those in power).

Its like the oil spill in the US. I saw an article saying we are all to blame cos we drive cars!! WTF!!

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

The politicians, developers and bankers haven't accepted any responsibility. Why should I?

If the economy was still booming do you think we would have the National Share the Wealth association? No way. But when things go wrong we're all in it together (by all I mean the general public not those in power).

Its like the oil spill in the US. I saw an article saying we are all to blame cos we drive cars!! WTF!!

Like I said, a better comparison is with the Germans, if you want to use a completely useless one to make a differant point that's ok . . I dont think anybody blames anybody but BP for what happened and in fairness to them they are doing everything they can to rectify it . . How you can compare a company that builds an oil refinery that breaks, with an elected government and many other variables that helped a country collapse is beyond me . .

What exactly are you doing to fix our country (other then moan on a forum)? Are you out on the streets demanding accountability? Are you canvassing for a candidate whom you know will have the countries best interest at heart ? Or are you simply a pc warrior that talks big but has little substance? (aka new labor supporter).

So .. Why should you take responsibility if the builders etc wont ? Sounds a bit childish to be honest . . This country will only progress by taking collective responsibility and growing up . . We were all involved in the mess and doing nothing is just as bad as doing something to encourage the bubble. . .

Unfortunately I fear that your kind of attitude might prevail and we may learn nothing (as a nation) from this crisis . . Leadership starts from the top and if that attitude is "well I didnt do anything wrong", then how can we expect anything less from those below us ?. . Why should public servants take any paycuts when the upper sections of public service continue on the gravy train ? Why should the politicians be accountable when their employers (electorate) dont seem to want to take any blame? We, the people are the kingmakers and we decide on the opposition . . If we chose correctly, we would not be in this mess. . If we wanted a prudent society we would of gotten one . . If we wanted a better alternative party, we would have a better opposition (oops, thats your fault buddy) . .

nice1franko

20Cent wrote: »

I never voted FF in my life.
I'm paying for their mistakes though.

Tell me about it mate...

I meant "we" collectively though (hence the "* by we, I mean yous bollixes")

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

So .. Why should you take responsibility if the builders etc wont ? Sounds a bit childish to be honest . . This country will only progress by taking collective responsibility and growing up . . We were all involved in the mess and doing nothing is just as bad as doing something to encourage the bubble. . .

That's the bull**** spouted by those who are up to their neck in it in order to make it seem like the rest of us helped.

How many ordinary people would be in massive arrears if they hadn't lost their jobs ?

Negative equity, maybe, but I have no time for that, since the whole purpose of buying a house should have been a home, and if you're not going to sell it, then that's not an issue.

Drumpot wrote: »

Leadership starts from the top. . Why should public servants take any paycuts when the upper sections of public service continue on the gravy train ? Why should the politicians be accountable when their employers (electorate) dont seem to want to take any blame?

I'm confused at this paragraph.

You blame the "upper sections of public service" for setting an example that the ordinary people don't follow, and then you blame the ordinary people for not setting an example for the politicians (the upper tier of public service, supposedly) to follow ?

Why the double-standards ?

Why don't you have a consistent stance re "those at the top" ?

Everyone is responsible for their own decisions, yes.

Ordinary people are not responsible for ridiculous decisions taken in a room at the end of September to which we had no input and have no minutes.

Those who blindly voted FF should be castigated (I will admit that some people probably did evaluate what they were offering and decided to put their own personal interests ahead of the country).

But lay off blaming those of us who borrowed within our means and, while things would still be "tight", would not be in trouble were it not for the FF-inspired collapse of the whole economy.

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

Like I said, a better comparison is with the Germans, if you want to use a completely useless one to make a differant point that's ok . . I dont think anybody blames anybody but BP for what happened and in fairness to them they are doing everything they can to rectify it . . How you can compare a company that builds an oil refinery that breaks, with an elected government and many other variables that helped a country collapse is beyond me . .

What exactly are you doing to fix our country (other then moan on a forum)? Are you out on the streets demanding accountability? Are you canvassing for a candidate whom you know will have the countries best interest at heart ? Or are you simply a pc warrior that talks big but has no substance to back up their claims ? (aka new labor supporter).

So .. Why should you take responsibility if the builders etc wont ? Sounds a bit childish to be honest . . This country will only progress by taking collective responsibility and growing up . . We were all involved in the mess and doing nothing is just as bad as doing something to encourage the bubble. . .

Unfortunately I fear that your kind of attitude might prevail and we may learn nothing (as a nation) from this crisis . . Leadership starts from the top. . Why should public servants take any paycuts when the upper sections of public service continue on the gravy train ? Why should the politicians be accountable when their employers (electorate) dont seem to want to take any blame? We, the people are the kingmakers and we decide on the opposition . . If we chose correctly, we would not be in this mess. . If we wanted a prudent society we would of gotten one . . If we wanted a better alternative party, we would have a better opposition (oops, thats your fault buddy) . .

I've been doing plenty thanks.
Who I vote or canvass for is none of your business though.

The electorate ARE paying.
Tightening belts would be a lot easier when it starts from the top. Currently it is like an alcoholic telling us we drink too much.

Its funny that when things are going well its all about the individual. He works hard deserves his money, better not tax them, tax breaks etc etc.
When the sh1t hits the fan its all about collective responsibility all of a sudden we are all in it together to pay up.

Saying that Joe Soap buying a home for his wife and kids is comparable to the wreakless gambling that developers did and the stoking up of the market that the Gov did is ridiculous.

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the bull**** spouted by those who are up to their neck in it in order to make it seem like the rest of us helped.

How many ordinary people would be in massive arrears if they hadn't lost their jobs ?

Negative equity, maybe, but I have no time for that, since the whole purpose of buying a house should have been a home, and if you're not going to sell it, then that's not an issue.



I'm confused at this paragraph.

You blame the "upper sections of public service" for setting an example that the ordinary people don't follow, and then you blame the ordinary people for not setting an example for the politicians (the upper tier of public service, supposedly) to follow ?

Why the double-standards ?

Why don't you have a consistent stance re "those at the top" ?

Everyone is responsible for their own decisions, yes.

Ordinary people are not responsible for ridiculous decisions taken in a room at the end of September to which we had no input and have no minutes.

Those who blindly voted FF should be castigated (I will admit that some people probably did evaluate what they were offering and decided to put their own personal interests ahead of the country).

But lay off blaming those of us who borrowed within our means and, while things would still be "tight", would not be in trouble were it not for the FF-inspired collapse of the whole economy.

I think you and 20cent are very confused . .

Firstly. I am in serious negative equity, up to my teeth in debt and have never been on more then 30k a year. . I am one of those who has always been on the lower side of the average wage in Ireland.

However, I dont say we need to take collective responsibility so that the "bigwigs" get off. . I say it because the only way to learn from your mistakes is to progress by acknowledging what happened, accepting responsibility and plan for change, with this knowledge in mind.

Secondly, my example was very clear . . Leadership starts from the (Top) electorate to the (middle) TDs to the (bottom) public servants (not sure how it threw you off!). There is nobody in a more stronger position then the electorate . .

Ah, it has to be either somebody being blamed (or attacked), I love these union words . . Prevention is better then cure and if we , the people, had voted in better candidates and wanted more prudent practices, we would of gotten it.

Oh, but people who bought within their means had nothing to do with this problem . . . Yes yes of course . . They werent just lucky or unable to afford a house?! PC warriors to the ready . .

Never ceases to amaze me the people on boards.ie who really should save their ill informed rants for Joe Duffy . .

I must ask again . . What did you do to prevent FF from ruining the country ? ?

scr123

How about asking those 1m extra in the workforce if they would like to reverse things and face the prospect of never working

Ask those who bought a house and especially those in negative equity if they would reverse things and never have a hope of buying a house

Ask the 400000 immigrants if they would reverse things and not have the opportunity to try and improve their lives

Ask those who saw the tax rates go from 48% and 26% down to 41% and 20% if they would reverse things that would have blocked them enjoying a much improved lifestyle

I could go on and on about about the good things but too slow at typing and 20 pages of goodies would take me a couple of days to do.

Just remember folk a person my age remembers when government in the Budget forever gave with one hand and took back with the other hand. For a few years in the boom they gave without taking back but its payback time and if you want the good times to return you will do so without the help from tax reliefs

Fighting Irish

fliball123 wrote: »

I take offense to the OP statement...I mean if we are to blame for wanting to live in a house and raise a family. The question that should be asked is where is the tax money gone that people pay. I mean not so long agon the SSIA was in because we had too much money ... Where is it gone. I mean it certainly isnt gone on Education still lads in the prefabs, and sure our taxes pay for the teachers. Its not gone on Health as we must have a near 3rd world country Health service..doctors not knowing if your baby is alive or dead...Its not gone on infrastrure...I mean any decent road now has a toll bridge so I am paying everytime I am on it...So where is it gone.???

The politicians are so far up their own holes in this country..They have a choice of showing their expenses ...I mean the O.P must be a politician or an FF supporter or completely oblivous to the wows of this nation to post such a stupid discussion

:rolleyes:

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

I've been doing plenty thanks.
Who I vote or canvass for is none of your business though.

The electorate ARE paying.
Tightening belts would be a lot easier when it starts from the top. Currently it is like an alcoholic telling us we drink too much.

Its funny that when things are going well its all about the individual. He works hard deserves his money, better not tax them, tax breaks etc etc.
When the sh1t hits the fan its all about collective responsibility all of a sudden we are all in it together to pay up.

Saying that Joe Soap buying a home for his wife and kids is comparable to the wreakless gambling that developers did and the stoking up of the market that the Gov did is ridiculous.

I didnt ask who you were canvassing for, I asked what you were doing to better our country. Its cant be much ,as you would have clear points to make if you were. .

Ok . . How did bankers and builders get to rip us all off ? Ah yes . . Government policy for over a decade . .

How did the government get into power ? Ah yes, at the hands of the electorate . .

Why didnt we vote in a different party? Ah yes, the opposition party was as lame as they come and people in some instances felt it was a case of voting for the devil you know!

It all starts with the electorate . . Prevention is better then cure. . If we were educated and actually cared about the running of our country we would of been more involved in the major decisions . . We are to blame for letting them do what they did. . The partys, the banks etc are to blame for taking advantage of our trust . .

We only learn by demanding more from our politician when they call to our door. . Dont just vote FG or Lab cause you hate FF, demand more . . Say that principles and long term objectives are what you want from your government . . Say you demand accountability in the public service and the Dail. . Say you will hold them accountable for their mistakes . .

If, as a nation we can start to get more involved in politics and treat voting for a politician (like you were voting for a doctor to save a relative/friend) we will get a better kind of government. . Who would you vote for then ? the Doctor who is a good laugh or the doctor who you know is competent and educated on the job in hand ? Mistakes will ALWAYS be made on some level, but they will always have the countries best interests at heart.

Saying "I did nothing wrong" or "the little people did nothing wrong" achieves absolutely nothing . . I am one of the little people in negative equity and who never earned more then 30k in 10 years of "boom" working . . Ive just learned that being bitter and angry achieves little, eventually you have to move on from this to progress. We have to get over it and accept that we had a huge part to play. This is one of the biggest challenges, only then do we deserve the right to point fingers at others with credibility and will the other major perpetrators truly get what they deserve.

SkepticOne

I think the biggest danger at the moment is a sort of national self-pity; the feeling that no matter what we do it is all for nothing because we as a nation are composed of people unfit to be represented.

My view is that if we have idiots in government, it doesn't matter that we elected them (which we did). The important thing is that we now realise this and so can make the decision to remove them.

That is not to say that the government is responsible for everything that happens to individuals. If you made the decision to buy a property at the height of the bubble and are now in negative equity, that is your fault, not the governments.

However if the government relies for taxation on a construction industry that is doomed to collapse once the bubble inevitably bursts, then that is the government's fault and not the fault of borrowers.

Different groups bear different responsibilities and what we need to do is make each of those different groups account for themselves. The problem with saying "its all the people's fault" is the same problem with saying it's all the government's fault: it glosses over these distinctions.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

The_Honeybadger

@ donegalfella well put and just about sums up what is wrong in this country, there is absolutely no will on the part of any of the vested interests to solve any of these issues and build a sustainable economic model for the future, and this is the rock we will perish on unless there is a miraculous turnaround in our fortunes.

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

I didnt ask who you were canvassing for, I asked what you were doing to better our country. Its cant be much ,as you would have clear points to make if you were. .

Ok . . How did bankers and builders get to rip us all off ? Ah yes . . Government policy for over a decade . .

How did the government get into power ? Ah yes, at the hands of the electorate . .

Why didnt we vote in a different party? Ah yes, the opposition party was as lame as they come and people in some instances felt it was a case of voting for the devil you know!

It all starts with the electorate . . Prevention is better then cure. . If we were educated and actually cared about the running of our country we would of been more involved in the major decisions . . We are to blame for letting them do what they did. . The partys, the banks etc are to blame for taking advantage of our trust . .

We only learn by demanding more from our politician when they call to our door. . Dont just vote FG or Lab cause you hate FF, demand more . . Say that principles and long term objectives are what you want from your government . . Say you demand accountability in the public service and the Dail. . Say you will hold them accountable for their mistakes . .

If, as a nation we can start to get more involved in politics and treat voting for a politician (like you were voting for a doctor to save a relative/friend) we will get a better kind of government. . Who would you vote for then ? the Doctor who is a good laugh or the doctor who you know is competent and educated on the job in hand ? Mistakes will ALWAYS be made on some level, but they will always have the countries best interests at heart.

Saying "I did nothing wrong" or "the little people did nothing wrong" achieves absolutely nothing . . I am one of the little people in negative equity and who never earned more then 30k in 10 years of "boom" working . . Ive just learned that being bitter and angry achieves little, eventually you have to move on from this to progress. We have to get over it and accept that we had a huge part to play. This is one of the biggest challenges, only then do we deserve the right to point fingers at others with credibility and will the other major perpetrators truly get what they deserve.

I agree with most of what you are saying (I think).
But my point is.
The little people ARE paying.
Those most responsible are not.
Thats my problem with the situation at the moment.

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying (I think).
But my point is.
The little people ARE paying.
Those most responsible are not.
Thats my problem with the situation at the moment.

I agree completely . . But I just think we will be better positioned to get these P*icks when we have exorcised our own demons . .

A few points that I feel would greatly improve our country in the long term:

1. Vote in better politicians with more sound, balanced, long term principles/objectives

2. If there is foulplay (we all know there was), change legislation retrospectively to chase up the golden circle and the people involved in covering up Anglo's books. this is huge. . Whether we blame the government on their decision to back the bank or not, our own government were lied to by the banks (the former regulator needs to be held accountable).

3. The councellors who rezoned too much land or land that wasnt properly zoned (I live on a flood plain).

4. Politicians who took the piss. . JOD and particularly those claiming benefits from living in holiday homes etc . . "I was only doing what I was entitled to" is no excuse .

5.Demand a clear plan for the health service . . Its a crock of Sh*t and there has been more then enough talk . . It should be just sorted . If we need to start from scratch, so be it, but make a clear plan.

6. Accountability in the entire public/civil service. They should be allowed to lose their jobs/pensions if negligence/theft/incomprehensible incompetency is found. Higher paid Paid public servants should be critically analyzed based on performance and salary properly reduced in line with their ability, position, success and qualifications.

7. Clear expenses for all TDs, seanad, councellors etc, published annually with clear figures and transparent explanations (if needed).

Got to go, but I think you get my idea . .

fontanalis

Written by HL Mencken about US politics but can easily be applied to Ireland.

When a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense; he faces a mob of men whose chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even of comprehending any save the most elemental — men whose whole thinking is done in terms of emotion, and whose dominant emotion is dread of what they cannot understand. So confronted, the candidate must either bark with the pack or be lost... All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

nice1franko

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

rightwingdub

Rational thinking is something Irish people aren't exactly renowned for, why do you think that we had the property madness from 1999 till 2007 where Irish people stupidly were willing to pay over the odds for a house when they would have been better off renting, I can hear it now but,but,but "Rent is dead money"...lol;)

Irish people moan about been ripped off, why wasn't there a mass exodus of Irish shoppers up north back in 2000-2001 when prices started to spiral out of control compared to the UK, nah a lot of Irish people would be too lazy to go around shopping for value and prefer to moan about rip off Ireland instead of doing something about it, if there had been a mass exodus of Irish shoppers to the North around 2000-2001, then Ireland would find itself in a far more competitive position.

There was no political party willing to stand up for fiscal sanity in the public finances, Labour were criticisng the government for not spending enough and FG slated the government for not spending enough on the health service.

Here's what needs in the future if we are to have a sustainable economy that can withstand a future economic shock.

1) A balanced budget irrespective of the state of the economy.
2) Public spending must not be increased above the rate of inflation eg if inflation is 2% then public spending must not increase over 2% and that includes social welfare.
3) Bring in a list electoral system.
4) Put all public sector workers on defined contribution pensions determined by the stock market.
5) Increase the retirement age to 70.
6) Privatise the hospitals that should have been done in the 70's, instead the state took over from the religious orders.

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

We only learn by demanding more from our politician when they call to our door. . Dont just vote FG or Lab cause you hate FF, demand more . . Say that principles and long term objectives are what you want from your government . . Say you demand accountability in the public service and the Dail. . Say you will hold them accountable for their mistakes . .

I said all this to the last FF canvasser that arrived at my door.....halfway through it, while I was still mid-sentence. he turned around and walked away.

I posted on boards about it at the time.

Drumpot wrote: »

If, as a nation we can start to get more involved in politics and treat voting for a politician (like you were voting for a doctor to save a relative/friend) we will get a better kind of government. . Who would you vote for then ? the Doctor who is a good laugh or the doctor who you know is competent and educated on the job in hand ? Mistakes will ALWAYS be made on some level, but they will always have the countries best interests at heart.

That, also, is precisely how I evaluate my vote. Again, check my posts if you don't believe me.

Drumpot wrote: »

We have to get over it and accept that we had a huge part to play. This is one of the biggest challenges, only then do we deserve the right to point fingers at others with credibility and will the other major perpetrators truly get what they deserve.

Summary : I did precisely what you suggested above should be done, and I still have to accept that I "had a huge part to play" ?

Please do explain why.

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I said all this to the last FF canvasser that arrived at my door.....halfway through it, while I was still mid-sentence. he turned around and walked away.

I posted on boards about it at the time.

That, also, is precisely how I evaluate my vote. Again, check my posts if you don't believe me.

Summary : I did precisely what you suggested above should be done, and I still have to accept that I "had a huge part to play" ?

Please do explain why.

Ok . . So you told off an FF candidate . . . How pro-active were you in trying to get FF out or get your voice heard or get your first choice candidate in ? How confident were you that you voted in somebody with all your principles ?

You simply did was most of the nation does and waited until the election and when they called to you, you gave them whats what . . Still the bare minimum anybody can do and it certainly doesn't get you off the hook . . Maybe you are convinced this, then there is no need for you to convince anybody else if you are 100% confident of this fact . .

I believe anybody able to vote had a role to play . .

Going around blaming somebody else, everybody else, anybody else is Ironically the same kind of thing that FF led government are doing that's getting us no accountability and angering us all. A government mirrors its people, so in essence you have the government in power that mirrors your own sentiments . :eek:

Fighting Irish

20Cent wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying (I think).
But my point is.
The little people ARE paying.
Those most responsible are not.
Thats my problem with the situation at the moment.

Yes they are

ardmacha

1) A balanced budget irrespective of the state of the economy.

Is this 1920s thinking, or Charlie McCreevy's when I have it I'll spend it, and when I don't have it I won't spend it? Running a surplus in good times and modest deficit in bad times is central to having a stable economy.

2) Public spending must not be increased above the rate of inflation eg if inflation is 2% then public spending must not increase over 2% and that includes social welfare.

Public spending must be efficient and appropriate. If it is then there is no reason why it should not expand with the economy generally. The only point is that you need an accurate view of the actual growth rate of the economy.

doc_17

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Interesting figure. I'm just curious where you got that 54% Figure and does it include the recent pay cuts?

doc_17

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Yes they are

Not sure they are. They don't have the money!!

20Cent

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Yes they are

Transferring the house into your wifes name is not paying.
Cowen et all are still there.
Seanie Fitz seems to be still living ok.

rightwingdub

ardmacha wrote: »

Is this 1920s thinking, or Charlie McCreevy's when I have it I'll spend it, and when I don't have it I won't spend it? Running a surplus in good times and modest deficit in bad times is central to having a stable economy.



Public spending must be efficient and appropriate. If it is then there is no reason why it should not expand with the economy generally. The only point is that you need an accurate view of the actual growth rate of the economy.

Not 1920's thinking just old fashioned common sense, its called putting aside money for a rainy day. Apparently in Cowen's 4 budgets public spending increased by a massive 51%, that is absolutely insane.