The Banks

soden12

Were our bankers right ?

They said the foreign banks would leave.

Did the foreign banks leave ?

Halifax went,

Rabobank is still here and has been here long before Halifax.

Are there other foreign banks operating here that are open to Joe Public ?

merlynthewizard

soden12 wrote: »

Were our bankers right ?

They said the foreign banks would leave.

Did the foreign banks leave ?

Halifax went,

Rabobank is still here and has been here long before Halifax.

Are there other foreign banks operating here that are open to Joe Public ?

First high street bank that moves here i'm joining....BOI and AIB don't deserve our custom

ei.sdraob

would you stick around if

1. your parent bank is in trouble
2. the country your in suddenly became less profitable to do business in
3. your competitors are gaining an unfair advantage via state aid

Banned Account

Ulster Bank was still open for business last time I checked - kinda knocks the argument on it's head really.

ei.sdraob

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Ulster Bank was still open for business last time I checked - kinda knocks the argument on it's head really.

Ulster Bank's parent RBS got plenty of state aid over in UK too

Its interesting how most of their (very polite and good) customer support seem to be in NI where the wages are much cheaper

Banned Account

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ulster Bank's parent RBS got plenty of state aid over in UK too

Its interesting how most of their (very polite and good) customer support seem to be in NI where the wages are much cheaper

That's just an outsourced customer service call centre - they are not bank staff.

Halifax's parent co. got plenty of state aid too, did it not?

What it boils down to is the business model used - banks with a good business model (or, should I say a less bad one?) are still operating. Those who chose to operate an initial loss leader model have now shut up shop - it's less to do with country of origin and more to do with time in operation and business model chosen.

ei.sdraob

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

That's just an outsourced customer service call centre - they are not bank staff.

Halifax's parent co. got plenty of state aid too, did it not?

What it boils down to is the business model used - banks with a good business model (or, should I say a less bad one?) are still operating. Those who chose to operate an initial loss leader model have now shut up shop - it's less to do with country of origin and more to do with time in operation and business model chosen.

your joking right

Do tell, what business model does Anglo operates under :rolleyes: that's if they have one

It be unlikely any of the irish banks be operating today if they didnt get bailed out, and these foreign banks would have been prime candidates to step in, none of the Irish banks had a business model for last decade as we now know

next you be telling us that less competition is good

Banned Account

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your joking right

NOt at all actually.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Do tell, what business model does Anglo operates under :rolleyes: that's if they have one

Do you think that Anglo are 'operating'? - methinks not.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

It be unlikely any of the irish banks be operating today if they didnt get bailed out, and these foreign banks would have been prime candidates to step in, none of the Irish banks had a business model for last decade as we now know

Leaving aside the basket cases of Anglo and Irish Nationwaide - Regling, Watson and Honohan would all disagree with you. Now, if you are holding youself up to be more of an expert, then perhaps I should defer to your considerable wisdom.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

next you be telling us that less competition is good

Quite how you got to this point from my post is bewildering really.

The fact of the matter is that Halifax came here in the height of the boom with a very predatory business model based on running losses in the inital years hoping to grow customer base in time to come and turn a profit later on. The scale of our current crisis meant that it was unlikely to attain a profit making level in the forseeable future and there was pressure coming on from the UK wher ther was issue taken with the fact that UK tax monies was being swallowed by a loss making bank in Ireland.

Ulster Bank is similarly under pressure from RBS, now having been told to source it's own capital and shave a further 33% off costs (this is after closing down First Active) if it is to remain a core part of the RBS model.

Given the currect cost of capital raising and low interest rates compounded by contraction in the economy and an ongoing decline in property values, banking in Ireland is likely to remain tough going in the years ahead. Companies globally are reviewing their operations and closing down or selling off those parts which are not viable. BOSI was initially looking for a buyer for Halifax but one could not be found - mainly due to the flaws in its operating model.

ei.sdraob

Halifax werent the only ones to leave

dont forget Postbank (Fortis/BNP Paribas)

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Do you think that Anglo are 'operating'? - methinks not.

"banks with a good business model are still operating" said you :rolleyes:

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Leaving aside the basket cases of Anglo and Irish Nationwaide - Regling, Watson and Honohan would all disagree with you. Now, if you are holding youself up to be more of an expert, then perhaps I should defer to your considerable wisdom.

You telling us that AIB and BOI are good solid banks with "a good business model" :rolleyes:
then why the hell are we giving them money and paying 10 times more than they are worth for not even 100% stake, and that's beside NAMA

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Quite how you got to this point from my post is bewildering really.

Foreign banks voting with feet and leaving Ireland, says alot about the sorry state of the Irish banking sector

Lets not forget that its the foreign banks (ACC vs Liam Carroll) dragging developers thru courts
the local ones are staying hush hush so not to rock the NAMA boat

Banned Account

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Halifax werent the only ones to leave

dont forget Postbank (Fortis/BNP Paribas)

Funnily enough, they left for the exact same reason as Halifax.

Thierry Schuman, chairman of Postbank, said several factors led to the decision to close the bank, including “the unprecedented circumstances in which the financial services sector finds itself, the highly competitive savings market within Ireland and the absence of a perspective of profitability in the current market circumstances”.
Ms Sweeney said the business was loss-making for the bank’s two shareholders as it was operating in an extremely competitive market where banks were paying “a significant premium” over the ECB rate of 1 per cent.
“It was a pure start-up – we were a bird flying with one wing at the moment with just savings products, but we had planned to start lending to customers.”

ei.sdraob

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Funnily enough, they left for the exact same reason as Halifax.

you just reinforced what im saying

Your competitors getting unlimited state aid makes for a "competitive" and "unprofitable" market :rolleyes:, news at 11

why would a bank stay and try to compete when the Anglo has the backing of the state and is trying hard to mop up savers with a SOUND and "good business model" (yeh)

Banned Account

ei.sdraob wrote: »

"banks with a good business model are still operating" said you :rolleyes:

My point was that it would be a considerable stretch of the imagination to say that Anglo are, in fact, operating - they exist, they do not operate.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You telling us that AIB and BOI are good solid banks with "a good business model" :rolleyes:
then why the hell are we giving them money and paying 10 times more than they are worth for not even 100% stake, and that's beside NAMA

I did not say they were good solid banks - I assume you invented that, as I did not type it. I was pointing out that the Regling/Watson and the Honohan reports state that they would have survived the crisis.

I fail to see the relevance of NAMA to the fact that foreign owned banks have pulled out of the country - off topic methinks.

Banned Account

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you just reinforced what im saying

Your competitors getting unlimited state aid makes for a "competitive" and "unprofitable" market :rolleyes:, news at 11

why would a bank stay and try to compete when the Anglo has the backing of the state and is trying hard to mop up savers with a SOUND and "good business model" (yeh)

The state aid point is a valid one and, indeed the EU tore up the rule book for this crisis. Nonetheless, the governmant opened the guarantee to all banks operating within the state - the foreign owned ones opted out due to the costs being charged by the state for the guarantee - so this nullifies your point.

Secondly, you have yet to address the fact that Ulster Bank are still in business despite not being party to the guarantee.

Rolleyes will not address these points.

ei.sdraob

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

My point was that it would be a considerable stretch of the imagination to say that Anglo are, in fact, operating - they exist, they do not operate.




I did not say they were good solid banks - I assume you invented that, as I did not type it. I was pointing out that the Regling/Watson and the Honohan reports state that they would have survived the crisis.

I fail to see the relevance of NAMA to the fact that foreign owned banks have pulled out of the country - off topic methinks.

NAMA an bailouts have all the relevance

lets say you have a chipper
the chipper next to you is suddenly "nationalised" and can undercut you at every stage since they state has full backing of the chipper

would you stick around or would you leave because of:

* "unprecedented circumstances"
* "highly competitive market"
* "absence of a perspective of profitability"

Banned Account

ei.sdraob wrote: »

NAMA an bailouts have all the relevance

lets say you have a chipper
the chipper next to you is suddenly "nationalised" and can undercut you at every stage since they state has full backing of the chipper

would you stick around or would you leave because of:

* "unprecedented circumstances"
* "highly competitive market"
* "absence of a perspective of profitability"

But there is a flaw in your argument here - what you should have posted, were it to be accurate, is the following:

A booming chip shop business springs up in the state with the indigenous chips shops making vast profits by borrowing huge volumes of potatoes off the worldwide potatoe market and selling chips to ever hungrier customers. It does not take the sensible step of securing a domestic potatoe supply.

New, foreign owned chips shops spring up and undercut the indigious ones. They are quite happy to sell chips at a loss hoping to win enough customers to allow them to become profitable in the near future.

One day, the worldwide potatoe market decides that, due to concerns over obesity and over expansion, it will no longer be willing to supply potatoes to the Irish market. Facing the imminent collapse of the chip industry, the State rushes into an ill-though out chip guarantee scheme. It covers all indigenous chip shops and offers to extent this to the foreign owned chippers also. The latter decline to opt in due to the cost the state is charging and the raelisation that the business model they adopted will not suit a post obesity society- they instead go home licking their wounds.

This leaves us with only indigenous chip shops and a few foreign owned ones which had been established before the heady days and were in a position to return to profitability in the near future.


Can you see the difference between the above and your analogy - reductionist arguments will not really address the nub of the issue.