D-Day for Croke park Deal

Riskymove

Two of the country's biggest unions are expected to back the Croke Park public sector pay and reform agreement later today.

SIPTU and IMPACT have recommended acceptance of the proposals and it is expected that their combined 130,000 members will back the deal in line with that recommendation.

If they do so, it means the agreement can be formally ratified by the Public Service Committee of Congress on Tuesday.

The agreement guarantees no further pay cuts or compulsory redundancies for four years in return for productivity concessions by over 250,000 Government employees.

However, a number of issues remain and some unions who rejected the deal have said they may not abide by the overall Congress majority vote.

Practical difficulties may emerge in individual workplaces when management in the various sectors start implementing reforms, including redeployment of staff and new rosters.

It is also unclear how long it will take for reforms to deliver quantifiable savings.

Some of those savings, if any, are due to be returned to staff, particularly the lower paid, in a review next spring.

It has also not yet been agreed how those savings will be distributed between staff in different sectors, given that some may face greater demands for change than others.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0611/pay.html

bobbysands81

SIPTU looks like it will ratify the deal strongly - my only hope is IMPACT don't, but that's a very slim hope.

I see the media are still buying into the lies of "guarantees".

Gumbo

Impacts Dublin City Branch voted 64% for and 35% against with a 65.3% turnout.

Riskymove

kceire wrote: »

Impacts Dublin City Branch voted 64% for and 35% against with a 65.3% turnout.

does that mean Dublin City Council workers? or a wider membership?

Riskymove

bobbysands81 wrote: »

.

I see the media are still buying into the lies of "guarantees".

most media outlets these days simply cut and paste press releases.

Gumbo

Riskymove wrote: »

does that mean Dublin City Council workers? or a wider membership?

i dont know about the wider membership tbh but the figures came from within DCC.

Riskymove

kceire wrote: »

i dont know about the wider membership tbh but the figures came from within DCC.

thats fine thanks...probably just DCC workers then...I just wanted to eb sure who that Branch represented

Gumbo

Riskymove wrote: »

thats fine thanks...probably just DCC workers then...I just wanted to eb sure who that Branch represented

no probs

Head The Wall

They will have around 5 months to come up with the savings before the next budget or this deal is dust.

Does anyone think they will make any savings this year? and if not will there be cuts again

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

They will have around 5 months to come up with the savings before the next budget or this deal is dust.

Does anyone think they will make any savings this year? and if not will there be cuts again

you are in your own world again i am afraid......that is not how the deal is structured

Head The Wall

When do these savings have to be made so? Wasn't the idea of the deal that quantifiable reforms (€ savings) are put in place and the wages don't get cut. I was presuming that this had to be done by Budget time but regardless the principle is still the same

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

When do these savings have to be made so? Wasn't the idea of the deal that quantifiable reforms (€ savings) are put in place and the wages don't get cut. I was presuming that this had to be done by Budget time but regardless the principle is still the same

the agreement is for the period 2010-2014 and many objectives are spread over time periods, a lot of the measures wont see savings until future years and certainly not in the next 5 months

however, some will and will impact this year and next year

Count Dooku

Riskymove wrote: »

you are in your own world again i am afraid......that is not how the deal is structured

Do you mean freeze pay first and leave all mess about savings to Labour government?

Head The Wall

Instant savings are needed now though, it's a farce that the whole process has taken this long to even vote on. The Process in Spain is taking 1 week, it's as if the Govt don't want to rush through reforms.

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

Instant savings are needed now though, it's a farce that the whole process has taken this long to even vote on. The Process in Spain is taking 1 week, it's as if the Govt don't want to rush through reforms.

the savings for this year were contained in last year's budget...i.e. the paycut

the savings for next year will be in this years etc

spain is only starting now, we have already had measures taken

Head The Wall

Riskymove wrote: »

the savings for this year were contained in last year's budget...i.e. the paycut

the savings for next year will be in this years etc

spain is only starting now, we have already had measures taken

I Know we have started already but how come Spain could announce a deal to be voted on and have results over a week later. The sooner we get the Deal moving the sooner and more savings should in theory be made.

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

I Know we have started already but how come Spain could announce a deal to be voted on and have results over a week later. The sooner we get the Deal moving the sooner and more savings should in theory be made.

I have no idea how the trade unions in spain work

you'd have to ask siptu and Impact why they needed such a long time to vote

dan_d

What exactly are "practical difficulties" with implementing new rosters, etc,etc?

Head The Wall

I don't know either but it is beyond common sense why it takes so long here. You can be sure if it was a vote on accepting a pay rise it would be sorted bleedin rapid bud

irishh_bob

D-DAY my arse , it will be a resounding yes to what is a redicolusly generous deal , looking forward to not having to listen to any more media reports about this three month charade

BeardyFunzo

SIPTU Education Branch Result (from email i was sent):

RESULT OF EDUCATION BRANCH BALLOT ON PUBLIC SERVICE AGREEMENT.

NUMBER OF BALLOTS COUNTED: 1121.
NUMBER OF SPOILED BALLOTS: 2.

NUMBER OF BALLOTS IN FAVOUR OF THE PROPOSALS: 563.
NUMBER OF BALLOTS AGAINST THE PROPOSALS: 556.

Riskymove

BeardyFunzo wrote: »

SIPTU Education Branch Result (from email i was sent):

talk about a close vote

RichardAnd

Riskymove wrote: »

However, a number of issues remain and some unions who rejected the deal have said they may not abide by the overall Congress majority vote.

I knew this would happen. This deal is a mess and to be honest, I don't even see either side honouring their side of the bargain.

Further, I fail to see how any savings will arise because if your still paying X amount of people Y amount of money, then the bill is the same. In an ideal world, the dead-wood in the PS would have been cleared out and we'd be left with a smaller, cheaper public service. However, that's never going to happen

My opinion is that this deal will be broken. The government have their "get out of jail" card and with a little massaging of some statistics, they can say they need to use it. The unions on the other hand could either find a loophole and exploit that or, more likely, they'll simply break their word and go back to touting "we didn't cause the recession!"

The whole thing sickens me. What ever happened to honouring your word?

ParkRunner

Impact have strongly endorsed the croke park agreement 77% in favour! Bigger than I expected margin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0611/breaking9.html

dan_d

RichardAnd wrote: »

I knew this would happen. This deal is a mess and to be honest, I don't even see either side honouring their side of the bargain.

Further, I fail to see how any savings will arise because if your still paying X amount of people Y amount of money, then the bill is the same. In an ideal world, the dead-wood in the PS would have been cleared out and we'd be left with a smaller, cheaper public service. However, that's never going to happen

My opinion is that this deal will be broken. The government have their "get out of jail" card and with a little massaging of some statistics, they can say they need to use it. The unions on the other hand could either find a loophole and exploit that or, more likely, they'll simply break their word and go back to touting "we didn't cause the recession!"

The whole thing sickens me. What ever happened to honouring your word?

While I've no faith either - there's one fly in the ointment for the Gov. And that's the EU.
They've already identified us as a loose cannon and they're keeping a far closer eye than they let on, from reading between the lines. With any luck there'll be enough pressure on the Gov to make them implement changes to save money.

RichardAnd

dan_d wrote: »

While I've no faith either - there's one fly in the ointment for the Gov. And that's the EU.
They've already identified us as a loose cannon and they're keeping a far closer eye than they let on, from reading between the lines. With any luck there'll be enough pressure on the Gov to make them implement changes to save money.

I agree. The government should never have entered into negotiation with the unions at all. They should have simple cut pay and left it at that. There would have been strikes and unrest but after a few weeks, even a few days of not getting paid, the vast majority of PS workers would have gone back to work, albeit with a bitter taste.

I can see wages being cut in December, deal or not, which will be followed by more hassle. I'm not a public sector basher at all but this whole thing is a total circus.

BeardyFunzo

Further detail on SIPTU Education Branch vote:

DCU: Yes: 158
No: 133

UCD: Yes: 86
No: 150

TCD Yes: 208
No: 208

HEA: Yes: 21
No: 2

IADT: Yes: 7 (Dun Laoghaire Institute of Art Design and Technology)
No: 6

NCAD Yes: 34 (National College of Art and Design)
No: 27

HETAC Yes: 8
No: 7

RIAM Yes: 16 (Royal Irish Academy of Music)
No: 6

Postal Yes: 20
No: 15

Not exactly a huge turnout.

BeardyFunzo

RichardAnd wrote: »

My opinion is that this deal will be broken....

The whole thing sickens me. What ever happened to honouring your word?

You could see if that happens before you become sickened? A little faith won't kill ya!

BeardyFunzo

Hot off the presses

11th June

SIPTU SUPPORTS CROKE PARK PROPOSALS BY ALMOST 2:1 MAJORITY

SIPTU members in the public service have voted by a substantial majority to support the Croke Park Proposals on Pay and Reform of the Public Service. Over 65% of those participating in the ballot voted to support the detailed proposals negotiated by public service unions and employers at Croke Park earlier this year.

The result followed extensive consultation with SIPTU members across the country over the past two months.

Commenting on the outcome of ballot SIPTU General President, Jack O’Connor, said;

“Our members in the public service have decided to go with a medium term strategy which protects their interests in the matters of pay, job security and pensions while providing a framework for the reinstatement of the agreed rates over time.”

“It also advances the interests of the citizens of Ireland by facilitating the restructuring of public services on an agreed basis. This is in sharp contrast to the Government’s continuing policy of placating the rich at all costs which brought about the economic crisis in the first place and which is graphically evident in its mishandling of the banking debacle.”

“Public service management must now set about the task of implementing the reform programme in a manner that complies with the principles of the Croke Park proposals which entails fully respecting the rights and interests of employees. Clearly any attempt to deviate from the delicate balance enshrined in the proposals will bring about the collapse of the arrangements.”

“The onus now passes on to those at the top of society who have contributed little or nothing to the resolution of our economic problems while working people and those who depend most on public services have carried the lions share of the burden.”

“Government must now face up to the obligation to stop insulating the rich and tax wealth and trophy houses in budget 2011.”

GoldenEarring

BeardyFunzo wrote: »

SIPTU Education Branch Result (from email i was sent):

Can anyone work out if the result would have been different if voters were counted as individuals?

Scarab80

GoldenEarring wrote: »

Can anyone work out if the result would have been different if voters were counted as individuals?

I would doubt that it would make a difference. It's not really that close based on the weightings and there have been as many strong approvals as there have strong denials. I reckon the voting at the ICTU will be a pretty fair representation of individual votes.

doc_17

So what happens now with the unions who rejected the deal? The CPSU, nurses and teachers?

murphaph

doc_17 wrote: »

So what happens now with the unions who rejected the deal? The CPSU, nurses and teachers?

They will have to implement it regardless, or else their solidarity with congress isn't worth the paper it's written on.

BeardyFunzo

doc_17 wrote: »

So what happens now with the unions who rejected the deal? The CPSU, nurses and teachers?

The ICTU will accept the deal, so they, in theory, have accepted the deal too.

If they feel really strongly they could move to leave the ICTU but their bargaining power would be much reduced. And they likely wouldn't have much public support

Godge

doc_17 wrote: »

So what happens now with the unions who rejected the deal? The CPSU, nurses and teachers?

They have a choice - accept the majority decision or go-it-alone either by leaving ICTU or plowing their own course from within.

The nurses will accept the majority decision, the CPSU will look into its heart before doing so, maybe with some further guarantees for the lower paid.

The smaller unions - Unite, TEEU don't matter as little change is expected of their members.

The three education unions is where the fun is going to be. Can Kieran Mulvey bring his old union ASTI across the line. Will that then be enough to allow the TUI's second level members to shout down their third level members. We will see.

BeardyFunzo

GoldenEarring wrote: »

Can anyone work out if the result would have been different if voters were counted as individuals?

NOT exact figures, but they are generated by extrapolating the union's vote to it's entire membership.



UNION...........Members........A/ R........... Votes in favour................Votes against
SIPTU...........72,000........Accept......................46800..................25,200
IMPACT.........60,000........Accept .................... 46200................13,800
INMO............38,000........Reject........................6,080 ................31,920
INTO ...........32,000........Accept..................... 20800................11,200
ASTI............18,100........Reject ..................... 6,878................11,222
TUI..............13,000........Reject .................... 3,250...................9,750
CPSU............13,000........Reject .....................4,940...................8060
.
134,948.00 (54.83%) For
111,152 (45.17%) Against


I'm personally of the opinion that silence means approval, so not voting would count as a yes in my book. And i only coverd the bigger unions because it's a friday night and i shouldn't be at a computer!

doc_17

Godge wrote: »

The three education unions is where the fun is going to be. Can Kieran Mulvey bring his old union ASTI across the line. Will that then be enough to allow the TUI's second level members to shout down their third level members. We will see.

Yeah I think that's where the fun will be too. The INTO have accepted so no problems there but ASTI and TUI haven't. The members of those unions have not given their executive a mandate to renegotiate their contract. They started out to reverse the cuts but will hardly be happy at ending up not only with the pay cuts/pension levies still in place but having to work longer hours under a renegotiated contract which lessens their conditions of service (that's how they will se it).

In reality other unions shouldn't really be voting on other unions contracts/conditions of service. had this deal called for everyone else to work extra hours it would have been rejected imo.

Godge

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah I think that's where the fun will be too. The INTO have accepted so no problems there but ASTI and TUI haven't. The members of those unions have not given their executive a mandate to renegotiate their contract. They started out to reverse the cuts but will hardly be happy at ending up not only with the pay cuts/pension levies still in place but having to work longer hours under a renegotiated contract which lessens their conditions of service (that's how they will se it).

In reality other unions shouldn't really be voting on other unions contracts/conditions of service. had this deal called for everyone else to work extra hours it would have been rejected imo.

The problem for the education sector unions was the victory they won with the Greens in renegotiating the Programme for Government. Once increasing the pupil-teacher ratio was off the table, there wasn't much else left in terms of productivity and reducing costs other than the contract renegotiation and the extra hours.

The alliance with the Greens may turn out to be a hollow victory for the teachers but a great result for the students - no reduction in pupil-teacher ratios and a much better service from the teachers.

GoldenEarring

doc_17 wrote: »

In reality other unions shouldn't really be voting on other unions contracts/conditions of service. had this deal called for everyone else to work extra hours it would have been rejected imo.

Good point.

thanks for that Beardyfunzo. So it did not matter which way they worked it out then.

SkepticOne

I think a lot of the "we've turned a corner" economic rhetoric by the government has been about securing this deal. We'll know that's the case if it stops now and starts being replaced by bad economic news that "no one could possibly have predicted" in advance of the next budget thus paving the way for the deal to be broken.

Scarab80

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think a lot of the "we've turned a corner" economic rhetoric by the government has been about securing this deal. We'll know that's the case if it stops now and starts being replaced by bad economic news that "no one could possibly have predicted" in advance of the next budget thus paving the way for the deal to be broken.

Except for the fact that growth projections are being backed up by Europe, the IMF, economic thinktanks and asset managers and investors.

SkepticOne

Scarab80 wrote: »

Except for the fact that growth projections are being backed up by Europe, the IMF, economic thinktanks and asset managers and investors.

We'll see...

changes

Everyone i spoke to at work was voting for the deal (impact), the main reason they said was because the country is in a terrible state and that there was no chance of the paycuts being reversed. Pragmatism and 'lets just move on' seemed to be the view.

BTW if they had believed we had turned a corner they would have been looking for their paycuts back

dean21

The deal is done and now we will see how the management in the PS performs.
I have said it all along the problem in the PS is the management and they will fail again with this agreement and let hope the public are watching.
When it came to a wage rise management got the biggest one
Benchmarking was managers awarding massive wage rise to managers
And when it came to wage cuts once again managers were protected
There will be no reform as management don’t know what reform is

rightwingdub

dean21 wrote: »

The deal is done and now we will see how the management in the PS performs.
I have said it all along the problem in the PS is the management and they will fail again with this agreement and let hope the public are watching.
When it came to a wage rise management got the biggest one
Benchmarking was managers awarding massive wage rise to managers
And when it came to wage cuts once again managers were protected
There will be no reform as management don’t know what reform is

The public sector couldn't organise a drinking session in a pub let alone run a business thats how owefully inefficient the ps is in this country.

doc_17

rightwingdub wrote: »

The public sector couldn't organise a drinking session in a pub let alone run a business thats how owefully inefficient the ps is in this country.

Jeez, we organise plenty of drinking sessions on a friday evening after school in a pub. If i'd known that this was a specialism that my 300,000 colleagues country wide in the PS lacked I would have organised some training days for them, run through FAS of course because if anyone can organise a junkett it's them.

rightwingdub

doc_17 wrote: »

Jeez, we organise plenty of drinking sessions on a friday evening after school in a pub. If i'd known that this was a specialism that my 300,000 colleagues country wide in the PS lacked I would have organised some training days for them, run through FAS of course because if anyone can organise a junkett it's them.

You know what I mean the level of incompetence that exists at staff and managerial level in the ps is absolutely mind boggling.

Euro_Kraut

rightwingdub wrote: »

You know what I mean the level of incompetence that exists at staff and managerial level in the ps is absolutely mind boggling.

Really? Did the Sunday Independent tell you this?

Can you please break down the 300,000 public servant and tell me exactly who is incompetent please? Unless you can do that you are just another Internet warrior talking out of your backside.

WalterMitty

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Really? Did the Sunday Independent tell you this?

Can you please break down the 300,000 public servant and tell me exactly who is incompetent please? Unless you can do that you are just another Internet warrior talking out of your backside.

You dont need to to look at individuals though. We are spending more per capita in health for instance than the best health systems in the world yet ours is no where near their quality. Our public servants are amongst best paid in world and our public services are far from world class. That tells me enough. Public spending triped over 15 years and public services are not 3 times better, they may even be worse.

doc_17

rightwingdub wrote: »

You know what I mean the level of incompetence that exists at staff and managerial level in the ps is absolutely mind boggling.

No I don't know what you mean. I work with 30 other PS workers on a daily basis and all of them are competent, hard working, dedicated and enthusiastic. You believe what you want to believe and that is why talking and debating with you is probably a waste of time.

But it's nice to know that you think anyone who can organise a p*ss iup s not incompetent. What high standards you have

Head The Wall

dean21 wrote: »

The deal is done and now we will see how the management in the PS performs.
I have said it all along the problem in the PS is the management and they will fail again with this agreement and let hope the public are watching.
When it came to a wage rise management got the biggest one
Benchmarking was managers awarding massive wage rise to managers
And when it came to wage cuts once again managers were protected
There will be no reform as management don’t know what reform is

The mamangement are as bad as the PS staff as they allow the staff get away with murder.