Bloody Sunday Shootings to be ruled unlawful?

MarchDub

According to a report in the Guardian newspaper the Bloody Sunday shootings by the British Army will be ruled unlawful. The report is due out on Tuesday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/10/bloody-sunday-inquiry-northern-ireland

Morlar

MarchDub wrote: »

According to a report in the Guardian newspaper the Bloody Sunday shootings by the British Army will be ruled unlawful. The report is due out on Tuesday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/10/bloody-sunday-inquiry-northern-ireland

Reminds me of that saying about justice delayed being justice denied. Looking forward to the actual report and hopefully the prosecutions to follow.

MarchDub

Morlar wrote: »

Reminds me of that saying about justice delayed being justice denied. Looking forward to the actual report and hopefully the prosecutions to follow.

Let's hope that it's not denied. Here's an excellent article in the Irish Times explaining why it is necessary for justice to be done and explaining the historic impact of Bloody Sunday.

Quote:
In every other comparable atrocity, the victims were acknowledged as having been wrongly done to death and the perpetrators damned as wrongdoers. But the Bloody Sunday families were told, in effect, that while they might personally, reasonably, lament the loss of a loved one, they had no wider ground for grievance or legitimate expectation of the killers being brought to account.


All the dead were thus diminished. Liam Wray, brother of Jim Wray, 22, shot in the back at point-blank range as he lay wounded in Glenfada Park, commented: “It said that my brother was less than fully human.”


Bloody Sunday was different, too, in that it was to prove a significant plot point in the narrative of the Northern Troubles. Communal heartache in the wake of mass killings has tended generally to dissipate over time, the happiness of those left behind likely shattered forever but public life not discernibly changed.


In contrast, Bloody Sunday catapulted working-class Catholic communities across the North outside all notions of constitutionality, removing from the Stormont parliament whatever legitimacy it had retained among Catholics. The parliament, which had governed the North since partition, was abolished eight weeks after Bloody Sunday, three weeks before publication of Widgery’s findings. No other major change has stemmed so directly from a single incident.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0612/1224272334779.html

ultain

It has taken nearly four decades for the truth to emerge. R.I.P

MarchDub

BBC headline:

Bloody Sunday Dead All Innocent

Maybe that is "news" to them - but some of us knew this all along.

I remember that day so well. Yes, may they all - and their relatives who did not live to see this day - Rest In Peace.

Morlar

Considering there was speculation in advance over whether or not he should use the word 'regret' or the word 'sorry' (ie pressure from tories and loyalists) - I think Cameron's response has been commendable ;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/bloodysunday.html

Speaking in the House of Commons, Mr Cameron said: 'I am deeply, deeply sorry.'

Bereaved families march to Guildhall

Mr Cameron said the tribunal found some soldiers had 'knowingly put forward false accounts'.

Beginning his speech, Mr Cameron said: 'I'm deeply patriotic, I never want to believe anything bad about our country, soldiers, officers who are finest in the world.

'But, the conclusions are absolutely clear. There's no doubt, nothing equivocal, no ambiguities,' Mr Cameron said.

The inquiry found that the soldiers of the support company who went into the Bogside, where the march was taking place, did so 'as a result of an order which should not have been given' by their commander.

It concluded that 'on balance' the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by British soldiers.

None of the casualties was carrying a firearm and while there was some shooting by republican paramilitaries, 'none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of civilian casualties'.

In no case was any warning given by the soldiers before opening fire and the support company 'reacted by losing their self-control ... forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training'.

The result was a 'serious and widespread loss of fire discipline'.

Morlar

In case anyone missed it here is the report

http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/volume01/

InTheTrees

This is great news. I havent seen the video but camerons apology seems personally sincere for what it is.

I hope it brings some comfort to the families. I hope they'll be eligible for some kind of compensation/assistance.

Will any prosecutions result?

Judgement Day

Who would be prosecuted? I should imagine most of the politicians responsible for deploying frontline troops into a civilian conflict zone are long since dead. Prosecuting individual soldiers would be pointless in my opinion. Is there going to be a similar enquiry into the Omagh bombing - not to mention Dublin, Monaghan etc?

MarchDub

InTheTrees wrote: »

This is great news. I havent seen the video but camerons apology seems personally sincere for what it is.

I hope it brings some comfort to the families. I hope they'll be eligible for some kind of compensation/assistance.

Will any prosecutions result?

The whole video of Cameron's statement is on the RTE news site. I'm not computer savvy enough to be able to lift it and post it here. Maybe one else knows how to to do this?

Also the RTE news is on there with their coverage of the announcement and specially galling also is to see the old news clip of the soldier Lr. Col Derrick Wilford in a clipped accent - showing no remorse for the dead-- saying that they first fired only rubber bullets until "we came under fire". I can remember that first going out on the BBC news 38 years ago and the sense of frustration and helplessness in Ireland was immense.

InTheTrees

Prosecutions? I supose not, proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt would be near impossible.

Fratton Fred

From the BBC.

I'm not his biggest fan, but this sums up my feelings to the tee.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10322295.stm

David Cameron wrote:

"The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is publishing the report of the Saville inquiry - the tribunal set up by the previous government to investigate the tragic events of 30 January 1972, a day more commonly known as Bloody Sunday.

We have acted in good faith by publishing the tribunal's findings as soon as possible after the general election.

Mr Speaker, I am deeply patriotic. I never want to believe anything bad about our country. I never want to call into question the behaviour of our soldiers and our army, who I believe to be the finest in the world.

And I have seen for myself the very difficult and dangerous circumstances in which we ask our soldiers to serve.

But the conclusions of this report are absolutely clear. There is no doubt, there is nothing equivocal, there are no ambiguities. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong.

'Loss of self-control'

Lord Saville concludes that the soldiers of the support company who went into the Bogside did so as a result of an order which should not have been given by their commander.

He finds that, on balance, the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army.

He finds that none of the casualties shot by the soldiers of support company was armed with a firearm.

He finds that there was some firing by Republican paramilitaries but none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of civilian casualties.

And he finds that, in no case, was any warning given by soldiers before opening fire.

He also finds that the support company reacted by losing their self-control, forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and with a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline.

He finds that despite the contrary evidence given by the soldiers, none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers.

And he finds that many of the soldiers - and I quote knowingly - put forward false accounts to seek to justify their firing.

'Crawling away'

Lord Saville says that some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to the assistance of others who were dying.

The report refers to one person who was shot while crawling away from the soldiers. Another was shot in all probability when he was lying mortally wounded on the ground.

The report refers to the father who was hit and injured by army gunfire after going to attend to his son.

For those looking for statements of innocence, Saville says that the immediate responsibility for the deaths and injuries on Bloody Sunday lies with those members of support company whose unjustifiable firing was the cause of those deaths and injuries.

Crucially, that, and I quote, none of the casualties was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury or indeed was doing anything else that could, on any view, justified in shooting.

For those people who are looking for the report to use terms like murder and unlawful killing, I remind the House that these judgments are not matters for a tribunal or politicians to determine.

Mr Speaker, these are shocking conclusions to read and shocking words to have to say. But Mr Speaker, you do not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible.

We do not honour all those who have served with such distinction in keeping the peace and upholding the rule of law in Northern Ireland by hiding from the truth.

There is no point in trying to soften or equivocate what is in this report. It is clear from the tribunal's authoritative conclusions that the events of Bloody Sunday were in no way justified.

'Deeply sorry'

I know that some people wonder whether, nearly 40 years on from an event, [if] a prime minister needs to issue an apology.

For someone of my generation, Bloody Sunday and the early 1970s are something we feel we have learnt about rather than lived through.

But what happened should never, ever have happened. The families of those who died should not have had to live with the pain and the hurt of that day and with a lifetime of loss.

Some members of our armed forces acted wrongly. The government is ultimately responsible for the conduct of the armed forces and for that, on behalf of the government, indeed, on behalf of our country, I am deeply sorry.

Mr Speaker, just as this report is clear that the actions of that day were unjustifiable, so too is it clear in some of its other findings.

Those looking for premeditation, a plan, those even looking for a conspiracy involving senior politicians or senior members of the armed forces, they will not find it in this report.

Indeed, Lord Saville finds no evidence that the events of Bloody Sunday were premeditated, he concludes that the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland governments and the army neither tolerated nor encouraged the use of unjustified lethal force.

He makes no suggestion of a government cover up.

Mr Speaker, the report also specifically deals with the actions of key individuals in the army, in politics and beyond, including Major-General Ford, Brigadier McLellan, and Lieutenant Colonel Wilford.

In each case, the findings are clear. It does the same for Martin McGuinness. It specifically finds he was present and probably armed with a sub-machine gun but it concludes, and I quote, "we're sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire".

'Bloodiest year'

Mr Speaker, while in no way justifying the events of January 30th, 1972, we should acknowledge the background to the events of Bloody Sunday.

Since 1969, the security situation in Northern Ireland had been declining significantly.

Three days before Bloody Sunday, two RUC officers, one a Catholic, were shot by the IRA in Londonderry, the first police officers killed in the city during the Troubles.

A third of the City of Derry had become a no-go area for the RUC and the Army. And in the end, 1972 was to prove Northern Ireland's bloodiest year by far, with nearly 500 people killed.

And let us also remember, Bloody Sunday is not the defining story of the service the British Army gave in Northern Ireland from 1969-2007.

This was known as Operation Banner, the longest continuous operation in British military history, spanning 38 years and in which over 250,000 people served.

Our armed forces displayed enormous courage and professionalism in upholding democracy and the rule of law in Northern Ireland.

Acting in support of the police, they played a major part in setting the conditions that have made peaceful politics possible.

And over 1,000 members - 1,000 members - of the security forces lost their lives to that cause.

Without their work, the peace process would not have happened.

Of course, some mistakes were undoubtedly made, but lessons were also learned.

And once again, I put on record the immense debt of gratitude we all owe to those who served in Northern Ireland.

'Long campaign'

Mr Speaker, may I also thank the tribunal for its work and all those who displayed great courage in giving evidence.

I would also like to acknowledge the grief of the families of those killed.

They have pursued their long campaign over 38 years with great patience. Nothing can bring back those who were killed, but I hope, as one relative has put it, the truth coming out can help set people free.

John Major said he was open to a new inquiry, Tony Blair then set it up. This was accepted by the leader of the opposition. Of course, none of us anticipated that the Saville inquiry would take 12 years or cost almost £200m. Our views on that are well-documented.

It is right to pursue the truth with vigour and thoroughness, but let me reassure the House there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries into the past.

Today is not about the controversies surrounding the process, it is about the substance, about what this report tells us.

Everyone should have the chance to examine its complete findings and that is why it is being published in full.

Running to more than 5,000 pages, it is being published in 10 volumes.

Naturally, it will take all of us some time to digest the report's full findings and understand its implications. The House will have an opportunity for a full day's debate this autumn, and in the meantime the Secretaries of State in Northern Ireland for Defence will report back to me on all the issues which arise from it.

'Close painful chapter'

Mr Speaker, this report and the inquiry itself demonstrate how a state should hold itself to account and how we should be determined at all times, no matter how difficult, to judge ourselves against the highest standards.

Openness and frankness about the past, however painful, they do not make us weaker, they make us stronger.

That is one of the things that differentiates us from the terrorists. We should never forget that over 3,500 people from every community lost their lives in Northern Ireland, the overwhelming majority killed by terrorists.

There were many terrible atrocities. Politically-motivated violence was never justified, whichever side it came from. And it can never be justified by those criminal gangs that today want to draw Northern Ireland back to its bitter and bloody past.

No government I lead will ever put those who fight to defend democracy on an equal footing with those who contine to seek to destroy it.

But neither will we hide from the truth that confronts us today.

In the words of Lord Saville, what happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional IRA, increased hostility towards the Army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that followed.

Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland.

Those are words we cannot and must not ignore. But I hope what this report can also do it is mark the moment where we come together in this House and in the communities we represent to acknowledge our shared history, even where it divides us.

And come together to close this painful chapter on Northern Ireland's troubled past.

That is not to say we should ever forget or dismiss the past, but we must also move on. Northern Ireland has been transformed over the last 20 years and all of us in Westminster and Stormont must continue that work of change, coming together with all the people of Northern Ireland to build a stable, peaceful, prosperous and shared future.

And it is with that determination that I commend this statement to the house."

Fratton Fred

InTheTrees wrote: »

Prosecutions? I supose not, proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt would be near impossible.

it would especially as any statements given during the tribunal would be inadmissable in court.

caroj

I don't know if any of you read the mail online, the UK right-wing newspaper who also have an Oirish version, but to-day the blatent anti Irishness and general "if your Irish, your an IRA supporter" comments on articles on the Savaille enquiry is just sickening.

Shockingly, the vast majority view the report as a victory for the IRA and believe David Cameron has bowed to terrorists. They cannot grasp the fact that unarmed civilians on a civil rights march protest were innocent and NOT IRA supporters & the report had nothing to do with the IRA :mad:. There's no reasoning with narrow minded idiots who haven't a clue that NI is 6 counties, part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Amazingly one poster said maybe the Irish Government should pay for an enquiry on the IRA atrocities! WTF! The IRA is an illegal organisation while the British Army were in Derry to protect the people.

ultain

caroj wrote: »

the British Army were in Derry to protect the people.

Not all the people!

InTheTrees

caroj wrote: »

I don't know if any of you read the mail online, the UK right-wing newspaper who also have an Oirish version, but to-day the blatent anti Irishness and general "if your Irish, your an IRA supporter" comments on articles on the Savaille enquiry is just sickening.

Shockingly, the vast majority view the report as a victory for the IRA and believe David Cameron has bowed to terrorists. They cannot grasp the fact that unarmed civilians on a civil rights march protest were innocent and NOT IRA supporters & the report had nothing to do with the IRA :mad:. There's no reasoning with narrow minded idiots who haven't a clue that NI is 6 counties, part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Well I think one of benefits of this report is that we have the Truth now and claims and comments that could be argued about yesterday can not be argued today.

Indeed the conclusions may go some way to explain the conflict to those who were confused previously.

pavb2

OK as I understand things going back to Nazis war crimes (reluctantly) because someone committed a crime outside of recent history this shouldn'nt /doesn't diminish their crime or make it less deserving of accountability.

Is'nt the issue here that we can't actually determine who shot who and where, so prosecutions probably wouldn't work.

My thoughts are that I didn't know the full details of Bloody Sunday but when you listen to the details they are truly heart breaking.

I was also going to say that the soldiers that did this would have some conscience about it but probably not they will have their own rationale and justify it in their own minds of why it was right.

InTheTrees

pavb2 wrote: »

Is'nt the issue here that we can't actually determine who shot who and where so prosecutions probably wouldn't work.

Yes.

Its frustrating but I dont see any way to go further. Everyone points at everyone else.

Where was the brit obsession with CCTV when we needed it?

MarchDub

You know with all the bad publicity that Catholic priests have had recently I think it is appropriate to say, on this day, that one of the real heroes of Bloody Sunday was Father Edward Daly.

Those of us who saw the first raw footage of the bloody events flash across the TV screen will forever remember his white handkerchief waving at the soldiers as he tried to bring some of the victims to safety - and administer last rites to others. He faced up the guns and did what he had to do.

I also saw him interviewed just after the shootings and passionately insisting that the soldiers were NOT fired on first.

InTheTrees

MarchDub wrote: »

Those of us who saw the first raw footage of the bloody events flash across the TV screen will forever remember his white handkerchief waving at the soldiers as he tried to bring some of the victims to safety - and administer last rites to others. He faced up the guns and did what he had to do.

Absolutely. I think he will remain as the enduring image of that day.

MarchDub

Although I can't say I always agree with her Bernadette Devlin McAliskey calls for accountability of the British government - for those who may not know she was an MP for mid Ulster at the time of Bloody Sunday and witnessed the atrocities first hand. She famously punched out Reginal Maulding, the Secretary of State for the Home Department in the Conservative government when he made a statement to Parliament regarding Bloody Sunday stating that the British Army had fired only in self-defence.


She makes a point in today's article in the Guardian about the consequences of culpability in her call to "Put Britain in the Dock" in the international court at the Hague for what she describes as war crimes. The consequences of Bloody Sunday led to years of bloodshed.

Quote:

I did not call for a public inquiry, did not welcome the Saville Inquiry and only testified to respect the wishes of the bereaved families. I regret none of those things, but challenge the view that it was an expensive waste of time, energy and money. Had Bloody Sunday been no more than a violent and disgraceful overreaction or unlawful behaviour on the part of a few "squaddies" or overzealous commanders, it would not have required the British government and its military to create the complicated labyrinth of lies and deceit which has taken hundreds of testimonies, thousands of pages millions of pounds and 38 years to unravel.


The Bloody Sunday Trust and the bereaved families have shown great stamina and courage in their quest for disclosure and truth. Respectfully, however, Bloody Sunday isn't just about the families or how the 13 individuals lost their lives that day; the 14th dying later of his wounds. It is about whether the British government committed a war crime in 1972 and in so doing started a war. It is the British government, not their anonymous and brutalised soldiers of their alphabet army who should be in the dock, at the international court of justice at The Hague. If Saville has closed that route to truth and justice, the British government will consider it worth every penny.


Full article:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/15/bloody-sunday-british-government-soldiers

silliegillie

Judgement Day wrote: »

Is there going to be a similar enquiry into the Omagh bombing - not to mention Dublin, Monaghan etc?

It is a terrible atrocity that anybody Died in the troubles, But this inquiry was on the back that the soldiers at the time said they where justified, and also it was done by the army of the nation, (taking into context that NI is British),Up until this Point the victims where seen by the establishment as not entirely innocent. These other Bombings where not perpetrated by a Defense force of a nation but by Terrorist(Freedom fighters depending on your beliefs) so when people refer to the bloody sunday report and then ask about inquiries into paramilitary attacks I do not see the similarities other than innocent people died. Also in the cases stated above Criminal Prosecution is a possibly , the guys responsible for the RIRA Bombings are in jail(, also there is no state government covering up the fact that the victims where innocent. Im not against inquiries into these attacks either I Just Don't think that it is right to compare to the BloodySunday, An event that possibly lit the candle for the continuation of the troubles.

indioblack

Cameron's speech in the House of Commons seems to be an attempt to draw a line under Bloody Sunday - I doubt that this will happen.
Also, can this one day be viewed in isolation?
There were consequences as a result of Bloody Sunday and so it could be argued that it should be seen against the background of the events before and after this one day.
Or does this degrade the deaths on Bloody Sunday and the feelings of surviving relatives?

johnny_doyle

the report is another of Michael Collin's stepping stones towards a 32 county republic.