[Article] Ex-taxi driver gets six months for insurance certificate 'racket'

Spook_ie

If in doubt then don't get in!.....

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/27183

<snip - please don't quote entire articles from another source>

foggy_lad

I'd be wary getting into any taxi driven by someone with a masters but maybe that came off the same printer as the insurance certificates?

Atlantic Dawn

The NCT has a hologram but the insurance certs are just on normal crappy paper that any idiot with an inkjet printer and scanner can make up.

DWCommuter

As if Sean Quinn didn't have enough trouble.:D

SeanW

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The NCT has a hologram but the insurance certs are just on normal crappy paper that any idiot with an inkjet printer and scanner can make up.

Some insurance companies (FBD for one) add holograms to their certificates.

Terrontress

Taxi drivers always moan about profits being eroded and how standards will slip as a result and they will have to take shortcuts, endangering passengers. Now some guy does what they claim they are capable of and the taxi drivers come out of the woodwork to denounce him.

I wonder if this man were not Nigerian would people be as quick to complain?

Spook_ie

So someone drives round without insurance and automaticly the race card gets played, un-fvckin- beleivable

Terrontress

Yes, I am playing the race card.

I think that if it had been Patrick Murphy from Ballybane who had fake insurance on his taxi and had been given six months in prison then all taxi drivers would have been up in arms.

They would have said something along the lines of "It's no wonder he had to resort to fake insurance. He has to feed his wife and kids and is working longer hours and earning less money. This is an outrage".

A black man gets arrested for it and the consensus undoubtedly is "You see, we told you what would happen once the floodgates started to open to (that taxi specific expression) the NNs".

Regardless of whether you are driving a taxi or a private vehicle 6 months is an awfully long sentence for no insurance. And passengers in a taxi might not be covered if he crashes but the people the boy racer with no insurance crashes in to will be in equal diffs.

While taxi drivers may tend to irritate people, at least they stick up for each other. But do they if there is a black person involved?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Terrontress wrote: »

Yes, I am playing the race card.

So am I in that case..

Terrontress wrote: »

A black man gets arrested for it

How do you know he was black?.

Cookie_Monster

Barrett Dry Thermos wrote: »

How do you know he was black?.

Between the name and nationality is highly likely.

Terrontress wrote: »

Regardless of whether you are driving a taxi or a private vehicle 6 months is an awfully long sentence for no insurance.

6 months for having no tax and isurance and manufacturing multiple fake copies is not long enough. Its fraud, plain and simple. He should also have his licence revoked for 10 years.

Ideally he should just be deported back to Nigeria so we don't have to pay for his jail time.

BrianD

In fairness, how can any passenger no that a taxi has its tax and insurance in order? Surely this info can be linked to the taxi number and the gardai can do random checks by just entering the number into the database.

When the Gardai introduce these new cars with ANPR cameras onboard, I'd imagine there will be fewer taxis on the road.

Taxipete29

Terrontress wrote: »

Yes, I am playing the race card.

I think that if it had been Patrick Murphy from Ballybane who had fake insurance on his taxi and had been given six months in prison then all taxi drivers would have been up in arms.

They would have said something along the lines of "It's no wonder he had to resort to fake insurance. He has to feed his wife and kids and is working longer hours and earning less money. This is an outrage".

A black man gets arrested for it and the consensus undoubtedly is "You see, we told you what would happen once the floodgates started to open to (that taxi specific expression) the NNs".

Regardless of whether you are driving a taxi or a private vehicle 6 months is an awfully long sentence for no insurance. And passengers in a taxi might not be covered if he crashes but the people the boy racer with no insurance crashes in to will be in equal diffs.

While taxi drivers may tend to irritate people, at least they stick up for each other. But do they if there is a black person involved?

It doesnt matter what colour the person is, they broke the law, they are being punished and for some reason you dont agree with it. You constantly harp on about taxi drivers flouting the law and nothing being done. Well here you go.

You reckon taxi drivers whinge about nothing?? Pot, kettle, black after this imo

SeanW

Terrontress wrote: »

Yes, I am playing the race card.
...

Regardless of whether you are driving a taxi or a private vehicle 6 months is an awfully long sentence for no insurance. And passengers in a taxi might not be covered if he crashes but the people the boy racer with no insurance crashes in to will be in equal diffs.

Race doesn't matter. A crime is crime, he shouldn't get off easy just because he's (probably?) black. Likewise, no sane person should consider it an aggravating factor.

His sentence was fair. If I were to drive my car without insurance I wouldn't be disqualified rather than jailed. This individual:

1. Ferried passengers professionally, with no insurance to cover them.
2. Used COUNTERFEIT insurance documents. This is different to simply not having insurance.

The above is like not paying a restaurant bill versus paying with a knock-off €100 note. That you had just freshly printed.

Terrontress

Taxipete29 wrote: »

It doesnt matter what colour the person is, they broke the law, they are being punished and for some reason you dont agree with it. You constantly harp on about taxi drivers flouting the law and nothing being done. Well here you go.

You reckon taxi drivers whinge about nothing?? Pot, kettle, black after this imo

I think the punishment is harsh. The root of the crime is driving without insurance and I am not aware of any others who have gotten six months on a first offence.

I also think that if he had been a white, Irish taxi driver that the same old taxi drivers on here would have tried to justify his crime as a symptom of a worsening environment for taxi drivers.

Makikomi, I admit that his being black is an assumption I have made. I reckon that those taxi drivers who now seek to castigate this guy have made the same assumption.

Cookie_Monster, I'd imagine he'd be deported to the UK rather than Nigeria given that he has grown up there. And, what with the Common Travel Area and the EU and that, he could probably come back at will.

Still, there are plenty of uninsured Irish drivers in private cars and taxis. Maybe we could round them all up and send them to prison.

I think that the purpose of this thread is to promote a feeling of unease in travelling in taxis driven by black folk.

Cookie_Monster

Terrontress wrote: »

I think the punishment is harsh. The root of the crime is driving without insurance and I am not aware of any others who have gotten six months on a first offence.

but its not. Its part of what he did. Fraudulent copying of invalid Insurance discs is the other. Thats why he's been jailed, and rightly so. Its a much more serious offence than simply driving without tax and insurance.

Terrontress

So do you think that the only quote attributable to the judge, who imposed the sentence, reflects that the fraudulent use of the insurance certificate is the major issue here?

Cookie_Monster

Terrontress wrote: »

So do you think that the only quote attributable to the judge, who imposed the sentence, reflects that the fraudulent use of the insurance certificate is the major issue here?

this one?

“This is a racket. He may not be the only person involved. These documents were concocted and manufactured,” said Judge Fahy who added that the message had to go out from the court that “this is not acceptable”.

yeah, I reckon it does.

Regardless of that, as for having no tax or insurance as a private car is bad, as a PSV it is worse as you are effectivly lying to and decieving every customer you let into your car too.

Terrontress

O yeah, missed that!

Anyway, I think he has been harshly treated but that is not what I started to post about.

Why has a taxi driver come on to highlight an instance of illegal activity by taxi drivers even though he has justified another in the past few days?

Does he suggest a general issue with all taxis being unsafe? "Feeling safe in your taxi?". The vast majority of taxi users would be unable to distinguish between a forged and legit insurance cert, never mind check. So should we now be suspicious of all taxis' insurance? Why would a taxi driver promote that feeling of lack of safety?

So how does this legitimate posting taxi driver with all his insurance and tax up to date differentiate himself from the driver who has been sent to prison?

Spook_ie

Why do I have to differentiate myself? All I'm saying is if you're in doubt then get out, there are many different ways that doubt of a taxi or taxi drivers genuineness may be manifested to the user from the way they drive to the way they behave, nothing untoward about it

BTW which illegality is it that you're refering to? ranking outside pubs and nightclubs, if so then though agreed it's an illegality, but it's hardly in the same class as driving an uninsured vehicle, as supported by the punishment that could be imposed! or perhaps you think that deregulation hasn't gone far enough and we should have no need for any regulation at all?

Terrontress

Spook_ie wrote: »

Why do I have to differentiate myself? All I'm saying is if you're in doubt then get out, there are many different ways that doubt of a taxi or taxi drivers genuineness may be manifested to the user from the way they drive to the way they behave, nothing untoward about it

BTW which illegality is it that you're refering to? ranking outside pubs and nightclubs, if so then though agreed it's an illegality, but it's hardly in the same class as driving an uninsured vehicle, as supported by the punishment that could be imposed! or perhaps you think that deregulation hasn't gone far enough and we should have no need for any regulation at all?

You have to differentiate yourself because you make a living by getting people home safely. Take away that feeling of safety and you don't earn. I cannot believe you are encouraging people getting in to your taxi to question the validity of your insurance documents.

So. If he had still been taxiing; your taxi and his taxi driving down a road or sitting at a rank. How does the punter know yours is safe and his is not?

paddyland

Terrontress wrote: »

If he had still been taxiing; your taxi and his taxi driving down a road or sitting at a rank. How does the punter know yours is safe and his is not?

You don't, which is why these offenders need a whopping great deterrent, like jail. I am an ass for paying exorbitent insurance fees every year, while others can get away scot free with nothing.

Are you seriously suggesting he should get away with this? Or are you just trying to get another cheap dig at taxi drivers in general? Some taxi drivers are asses, therefore all taxi drivers must be asses, etc. etc.

This regulator, under Dempsey, has allowed rampant illegality to explode in the industry. Whatever about trying to survive in a level playing field, I could not survive in an industry with rampant illegality like this. I had to leave because of this type of carry on. The sooner harsh penalties are dished out throughout the industry, the better.

Stark

Terrontress wrote: »

Yes, I am playing the race card.

Oh yeah, we boardsies just love uninsured drivers as long as they're Irish :rolleyes: Get real.

Terrontress

Stark wrote: »

Oh yeah, we boardsies just love uninsured drivers as long as they're Irish :rolleyes: Get real.

I am not questioning the fact that he drove uninsured or that that is a crime. I think that a six month custodial sentence is very harsh but that is only based on comparison to other sentences which I think have been too light. I am the first to admit that I am not skilled in the sentencing of criminals. He definitely deserves punishment, should be banned from the roads for a long time and should not be allowed to work as a taxi driver in future.

But that is not what I am getting at in my posts.

My point is asking Spook_ie why he has bought this up, asking "Feeling safe in your taxi?" and stating "If in doubt, don't get in".

We're talking about a taxi driver who had fake insurance documents so convincing that Gardai had to contact Quinn Direct to verify them.

So what can the passenger at the side of the road do? Where will that doubt which prevents you from getting in come from?

Spook_ie has already claimed on here to drive an early 90s Japanese dirtbox as a taxi. If Spook_ie has all his affairs in order and this man does not and the two of them are ranked beside each other, where will the doubt that Spook_ie mentions come from?

SeanW

Terrontress wrote: »

We're talking about a taxi driver who had fake insurance documents so convincing that Gardai had to contact Quinn Direct to verify them.

Cha ching ... give this man a prize, he just found the aggravating factor, the probable reason why the man was jailed instead of simply disqualified.

Terrontress

SeanW wrote: »

Cha ching ... give this man a prize, he just found the aggravating factor, the probable reason why the man was jailed instead of simply disqualified.

Well, if the judge feels justified in having done that then so be it. She knows a hell of a lot more about it than I do. I hope she continues to impose such sentences for similar offences as uninsured drivers are a scourge on the road.

Not the point I am trying to make though.

Spook_ie

Terrontress wrote: »

I am not questioning the fact that he drove uninsured or that that is a crime. I think that a six month custodial sentence is very harsh but that is only based on comparison to other sentences which I think have been too light. I am the first to admit that I am not skilled in the sentencing of criminals. He definitely deserves punishment, should be banned from the roads for a long time and should not be allowed to work as a taxi driver in future.

But that is not what I am getting at in my posts.

My point is asking Spook_ie why he has bought this up, asking "Feeling safe in your taxi?" and stating "If in doubt, don't get in".

We're talking about a taxi driver who had fake insurance documents so convincing that Gardai had to contact Quinn Direct to verify them.

So what can the passenger at the side of the road do? Where will that doubt which prevents you from getting in come from?

Spook_ie has already claimed on here to drive an early 90s Japanese dirtbox as a taxi. If Spook_ie has all his affairs in order and this man does not and the two of them are ranked beside each other, where will the doubt that Spook_ie mentions come from?

Extremely disparaging of you to refer to my car as "an early 90's Japenese Dirtbox" for one thing it was a mid 90's and definately not a dirt box and very definately was insured at all times the reason I drive whatever vehicle is to ensure that the costs of my business remain at level of acceptable while still being compliant, your point of bringing up the model I drove being what precisely? or are you trying to get me to say pick my car I'm not black, if that's the case, then shame on you, I would have thought by now you would have known I'm not racist.

How are you the customer going to differentiate between genuine and non-genuine, $64m question, but I'm sure if you weren't pi$$ed most would have an inkling within half a mile that something was suspicious, so maybe it should read "If in doubt then get out!"

jack presley

At least this guy probably wouldn't go on strike or block roads!

Spook_ie

jack presley wrote: »

At least this guy probably wouldn't go on strike or block roads!

So as long as he doesn't strike or protest it's acceptable to flout insurance requirements, how very quaint and mature, perhaps the reason he wouldn't would be more to do with the Gardai present at such things?

JHMEG

There have been ongoing problems in the taxi industry in Galway - this won't help.

Spook_ie

JHMEG wrote: »

There have been ongoing problems in the taxi industry in Galway - this won't help.

Multiply X4 and you have Dublin, the whole thing is a mess

JHMEG

Spook_ie wrote: »

Multiply X4 and you have Dublin, the whole thing is a mess

Yeah, I believe so. The irregulator is a disgrace - just another quago.

SeanW

Terrontress wrote: »

I hope she continues to impose such sentences for similar offences as uninsured drivers are a scourge on the road.

Yes, but how many of those uninsured drivers are running a counterfeit insurance documents ring? That's the point you keep missing.

Not the point I am trying to make though.

Doesn't matter as long as you try to gloss over the fact that this individual was caught using fraudulent papers, which he may have made, as opposed to simply having nothing. The latter of which you drag back into it as being "a scourge on the road"

AlekSmart

I wonder if this man were not Nigerian would people be as quick to complain?

In this case Terrontress,I believe they would.

I know I would.

Whether one likes it or not,Nigeria has become the repository of choice for forged documents of all types.
It is also the country of origin for a large amount of Internet based fraudulent activities,often of the most brazen nature.

It could be argued that in terms of the electronic "Knowledge Based Economy" Nigeria could whip our asses any time it likes,and is doing so on a daily basis.

Take a stroll around Dublin City Centre and enquire as to Mobile Phone Unlocking,Laptop and PC "upgrades" or enhanced telephone services and likely as not you`ll engage the services of a Nigerian Citizen (and proud of it).

So I would suggest to terrontress that it`s not a racist card at all,its simply a realist card with no hidden agenda.

Of FAR greater importance here is the following quote from the investigating Garda....

He said that Odogun had used the old policy until it was cancelled and then took the Quinn insurance number and got several fake policies “made up”. Garda Sweeney added that Quinn insurance had been difficult to work with when tracing this offences, making it virtually “impossible” for gardai to check. He said that the only way these descrepencies come to light is when there is an accident.

By all means bang Mr Odogun up,but then head northwards and drag Sean Quinn or whomever is running his empire now and put them in the dock over this accusation.

It would seem from Garda Sweeney`s testimony that Quinn Direct were on the verge of Obstructing a Garda Enquiry,which if true,strikes to the core of the entire basis of Insurance industry.

It is all,of course,moot....until one is a passenger in a Taxi involved in a serious Road Traffic Accident,which given the nature of the Taxi industry,is an increased risk level of itself...then it actually does start to become important with a capital I.

JHMEG

Sounds like Quinn don't have a system/mechanism for dealing with these sort of enquiries. Tho it also sounds like the Garda in question was trying to get this information by email and anyone in business knows if you need information quick you use the phone.

Spook_ie

As is often the case it's probably a non uniform system, I remember picking up a girl who had decided she'd had enough of a taxi driver looking as though they were falling asleep at the wheel and got out, she gave the gards the plate number and the driver's ID number to be told we can't do anything as we don't have those details you need the TR or we need the registration of the car, fine if the TR ran 24hours but by the time they were open he would have had time to sleep ( or crash! )

I honestly don't know if she did try to persue it with the TR but I doubt she'd have got anywhere with it.

dynamick

This verdict is of course ludicrous and will be overturned on appeal.

You don't get 6 months in prison for faking an insurance document. The judge concludes with unfounded speculation about the possibility of a broader conspiracy and suggests that passengers were not covered when of course the liability for uninsured drivers is covered by law by the MIBI. Lastly, she admits that her sentence is designed to 'send a message from the court' when her job is to dispasssionately fit the sentence to the crime.

The argument that the fake insurance allowed a dangerous driver on the road is void as the accused was legitimately insured the previous year.

Nice one Mary Fahy.

The nationality of the accused is of course irrelevant to the story and only included because it adds colour to the piece.

Terrontress

Spook_ie wrote: »

Extremely disparaging of you to refer to my car as "an early 90's Japenese Dirtbox" for one thing it was a mid 90's and definately not a dirt box and very definately was insured at all times the reason I drive whatever vehicle is to ensure that the costs of my business remain at level of acceptable while still being compliant, your point of bringing up the model I drove being what precisely? or are you trying to get me to say pick my car I'm not black, if that's the case, then shame on you, I would have thought by now you would have known I'm not racist.

How are you the customer going to differentiate between genuine and non-genuine, $64m question, but I'm sure if you weren't pi$$ed most would have an inkling within half a mile that something was suspicious, so maybe it should read "If in doubt then get out!"

I accept from what I have read from previous posts that you are not overtly racist although this post stinks of it.

I don't see how anyone could form the basis of doubt from the information contained in the new article.

The only way you could reasonably differentiate, or form an element of doubt relating to, this taxi from the average taxi is that the driver is black.

If that is not the case, I would be glad if you would point out how a passenger might develop this doubt.

JHMEG

Plenty of people won't get a taxi because the driver looks foreign, especially black. There have been whole radio shows devoted to that topic.

paddyland

dynamick wrote: »

This verdict is of course ludicrous and will be overturned on appeal.

You don't get 6 months in prison for faking an insurance document. The judge concludes with unfounded speculation about the possibility of a broader conspiracy and suggests that passengers were not covered when of course the liability for uninsured drivers is covered by law by the MIBI. Lastly, she admits that her sentence is designed to 'send a message from the court' when her job is to dispasssionately fit the sentence to the crime.

The argument that the fake insurance allowed a dangerous driver on the road is void as the accused was legitimately insured the previous year.

On that basis, why would I or any taxi driver bother taking out exorbitently expensive insurance policies then? Why don't all taxis drive around uninsured, since you deem it unfair to overly penalise them?

dynamick

Driving uninsured carries a driving ban in all but exceptional cases. You can't work as a taxi driver if you can't drive a car. In Ireland the punishment is meant to fit the crime - we don't operate a system of retributive justice.

SeanW

So you don't think there should have been a penalty for the document counterfeitting?

dynamick

i'm talkin bout proportionality baby

AlekSmart

i'm talkin bout proportionality baby

I`m thinking proportionality is just about right in this case,and perhaps even a tad on the lenient side.

Mr Odogun is after all a Taxi Driver.

One assumes that he therefore possesses the relevant Licences and Documentation to allow him ply for public hire.

Taxi Drivers,Bus Drivers and those persons who drive for a living are regarded as Vocational Licence holders and are generally regarded by both the public and the courts as being required to operate to a somewhat higher standard than yer average car driver.

This has always been the case and I the courts tend to apply a significantly higher level of implied competence upon such persons.

To imply that Mr Ogodun`s crime is any less odious because we have a Motor Insurers Bureau is somewhat baffling.

The Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland is funded by the Motor Insurance Industry as a whole by way of a levy on every policy issued in the State.

Therefore it is essentially the Customer who bears the end-cost of the possible ramifications of Mr Ogodun`s criminality.

Unlike a claim on a legitimate Motor Policy,a claim brought under the Motor Insurers Bureau legislation will take significantly longer to be met.
The MIBI will have to satisfy itself that the incident meets the criteria for the invocation of MIBI cover.
The MIBI will also only entertain claims for personal injury and do not entertain any claims for damage to property.

Mr Odogun,and obviously,many others need to realise that becoming a Licenced Public Service Vehicle Driver is a step which notches up your Responsibility index and the defence of "I did`nt know Judge" will not be accepted quite so readily as in the case of "Ordinary" drivers.

I`m quite sure that in Galway and anywhere else the Taxi business operates there are many Taxi Drivers struggling to meet their costs including Motor and Public Liability Cover,but,in the main,they DO.

Mr Ogodun,as outlined in the Court Report appears to have come to the attention of the Gardai on more than one occasion and the quote that he produced documentation which the Gardai "Knew to be False" and which led to the confiscation of his vehicle.

It should also be noted that Mr Ogodun had also involved the vehicles owner unwittingly in the crime by showing him a valid policy and subsequently cancelling it.

The evidence also suggests that Mr Odogun had "Several Fake Policies" made up on foot of the initial cancelled one.
This would indicate that he had facilitated "several" other individuals to commit the same crime.

At what point do we collectively abandon our attempts to see a "Good Side" to this gentlemans activities ?

Will those who plead for yet more leniency for this fraudster also seek a discount from the next Taxi they hail on the basis that their insurance may well be a product of Mr Odogun and thus worthless ?

The standars imposed upon the Public Service Vehicle Driver are higher and deservedly so.

Mr Odogun and many others need to accept that when they apply for a PSV licence,sit the PSV test and accuquire that Licence then they must operate to that higher standard.

By the way......well done to the Gardai involved,particularly Garda Sweeney whose use of Electronic Mail appears to have hit a raw nerve with some posters,many of whom would doubtless be also heard giving out about Gards wasting time or being innefficient. :P

ardmacha

I think it quite appropriate and proportionate for taxi drivers, who carry passengers for hire as their business, to be subject to more severe penalties than motorists in general. Similarly producing forged documents on multiple occasions could bve regarded are more serious than someone who borrows a car believing themselves to be insured.

dowlingm

Unless there is a relationship between Quinn and the Guards, soliciting confidential info via email could be considered non-secure. Faxing is probably still the preferred choice for a lot of companies rather than email (although typos have been known to cause havoc).

It's surprising how many people think that email is encrypted - it is almost never so. You might have 128-bit SSL encryption for your order to dodgygear.com but the email confirmation is almost certain to be in SMTP plaintext, not TLS or S/MIME.

foggy_lad

wouldnt it be better if the insurance companies were forced to set up a garda hotline where motor insurance could be questioned at any time 24/7/365? and for companies that fail to keep the system updated large €10,000 fines for every day their data is out of date!

then armed with this information the guards can impound any and all vehicles without insurance instead of the current lazy lax system where they give the benefit of doubt and allow people produce documents within 10 days, this system facilitated the person in this case!

SeanW

I really don't understand this.

dynamick wrote: »

You don't get 6 months in prison for faking an insurance document.

Ok Mr. Legal Expert, what do you get for driving a PSV on a fake insurance document and/or faking documents for other people?

liability for uninsured drivers is covered by law by the MIBI.

That is a fund, paid for by people with insurance to victims of accidents. Its presence does not excuse scamming bastards who don't have insurance or have forged papers.

Lastly, she admits that her sentence is designed to 'send a message from the court'

And what's wrong with that? We need the courts to send clear messages in all areas of crime, particularly in cases of vandalism, assault and suchlike "anti-social behaviour." The Anglo Irish Bank crowd could do with some of this treatment as well.

The argument that the fake insurance allowed a dangerous driver on the road is void as the accused was legitimately insured the previous year.

Oh it's OK because he was insured in the past For someone who claims to have clear legal knowledge and information about sentencing guidelines superior to that of a judge, you seem to be confused about this.

Either a driver is insured when they're behind the wheel, or they're not insured. Full stop.

The nationality of the accused is of course irrelevant to the story and only included because it adds colour to the piece.

This is the only part of your post I agree with.

However I must wonder if you really mean that considering how much the PC Police on this board have been rowing in behind the defendant? Would YOU be defending this invdividual to this extent if he were a non-travelling, native Catholic Celtic Irish white man?

In fact I'd like to extend this question to everyone who had defended Mr Odogun on this thread.

ardmacha

wouldnt it be better if the insurance companies were forced to set up a garda hotline where motor insurance could be questioned at any time 24/7/365? and for companies that fail to keep the system updated large €10,000 fines for every day their data is out of date!

There should be an EU wide database for enforcement which shows the insurance status of vehicles in real time, so if you transfer a policy for a day it shows up immediately. Bits of paper on the windscreen and fake certs etc should be left in the 20th century