Developer pulls a fast one!!!

cjpm

Quick query, please help if you have any knowledge of planning laws etc...

A developer submitted plans for a load of houses 30+ and a huge treatment plant suitable for 200 houses. Notice in paper and site notice erected.

A lot of the locals rejected.

Council requested further info from developer and the developer withdrew the application.

A year later the plans were slightly amended and resubmitted, under a different planning number. This time definitely no site notice and possibly nothing in paper either.

None of the locals knew about it.

Council granted provisional planning.

Can the locals reject to ABP or will it fall on deaf ears as we didn't object to the revised plans (because we didn't know about them)

I'm so sick of this corrupt little country!:mad:

Paulyh

You can appeal the decsion with An Bord Planala.
If there was no site notice or newspaper ad, they would not have got permission, and copy of these have to be submitted with the application.
the site notice should have been checked by the local Authority to ensure it is present, and clearly visible from any main public roadway surrounding the site.
Have you checked on the LA website to see what documents were submitted?? and you can check all the conditions given with the grant of application.

muffler

cjpm wrote: »

A year later the plans were slightly amended and resubmitted, under a different planning number. This time definitely no site notice and possibly nothing in paper either.

None of the locals knew about it.

Council granted provisional planning.

Can the locals reject to ABP or will it fall on deaf ears as we didn't object to the revised plans (because we didn't know about them)

I'm so sick of this corrupt little country!:mad:

If you didnt object to the application then its highly unlikely that ABP will entertain an appeal. There is a small chance that you can appeal if you or anyone else can put up a case that conditions attached to the permission will radically change the original proposal and that you will now be affected whereas you wouldn't have been by the original proposals. You would have to be the owner or occupier of the land immediately adjoining the site to do this.

Regarding the public notices what I can tell you is that yes it was definitely in the paper and I say that without even knowing any of the details here. A quick glance at the planning file will confirm this. Im fairly sure the site notice was in place also as it has to be inspected by council officials.

Paulyh

muffler wrote: »

If you didnt object to the application then its highly unlikely that ABP will entertain an appeal. There is a small chance that you can appeal if you or anyone else can put up a case that conditions attached to the permission will radically change the original proposal and that you will now be affected whereas you wouldn't have been by the original proposals. You would have to be the owner or occupier of the land immediately adjoining the site to do this.
.

appologies, you generally need to have objected to the application, what muffler said

cjpm

muffler wrote: »

Regarding the public notices what I can tell you is that yes it was definitely in the paper and I say that without even knowing any of the details here. A quick glance at the planning file will confirm this. Im fairly sure the site notice was in place also as it has to be inspected by council officials.

I'm 99% sure that there was no site notice. The last notice was very easily spotted. On a small country road, barely the width of a truck!

sydthebeat

cjpm wrote: »

I'm 99% sure that there was no site notice. The last notice was very easily spotted. On a small country road, barely the width of a truck!

there would had to have been a site notice. the location of it may have changed from the initial application. The location of this notice is marked on both the site location map and the site layout plan.

A notice MUST have appeared in an approved newspaper... be it a local or national newspaper.

The only hope you have is that some semi-state body such as an taisce or the fisheries board appeal the decision. They can make an appeal without having submitted to the application.

gears

Purely a personal comment and may be of no consolation to the OP but if the proposed development is on a small counrty road it's highly unlikely the development will go ahead and even if it does it will not be for some considerable time. Again just my opinion but if the application happened recently its more likely its just the developer applying for planning to increase the value of the land which will look better on his balance sheet when NAMA and the Banks come calling. It's happening a lot... allegedly.

muffler

cjpm wrote: »

I'm 99% sure that there was no site notice. The last notice was very easily spotted. On a small country road, barely the width of a truck!

I have seen this type of thing several times. Its an old trick but widely used in certain situations. One example up my way was where a guy wanted to build a hotel in a rural area. Quite a few objections from the locals and while the council decided to grant permission it was successfully appealed to ABP. The old site notice was never removed and 6 months later the guy reapplied, replaced the old notice with a new one (no one paid attention to this as they thought it was still the old one) and stuck a notice in one of the national newspapers as opposed to the local paper that it was in with the first application.

The council again decided to grant permission, the locals hadn't objected as they were unaware of the new application and they appealed to ABP but it was dismissed instantly. They then applied for "leave to appeal" but that was also unsuccessful.

The site notice would have been inspected by the planner and possibly the local roads engineer who have to confirm the details in their reports which are on the file and now available for public inspection.

You may not like it but it reminds me of the old saying - "you snooze, you loose". Not really what you want to hear but all I can suggest is that you carry out a detailed inspection of the planning file.

cjpm

Folks,

There was no site notice. A lot of people would have objected had it been erected, as they did last time. Not one person objected. No one knew.

sydthebeat

cjpm wrote: »

Folks,

There was no site notice. A lot of people would have objected had it been erected, as they did last time. Not one person objected. No one knew.

the council are legally obliged to visit the site, usually on the 5th week, and check that the site notice

1. matches that submitted on file
2. is visible and legible from a public area
3. is in the location as indicated on the site layout and site location maps.

if there is no site notice, that means the application isnt valid and it is returned as invalid.

now, also note that the site notice only has to stay erected for 5 weeks after the date of submission, so at this stage it may have been removed

go to the council offices and check the file

gman2k

sydthebeat wrote: »

there would had to have been a site notice. the location of it may have changed from the initial application. The location of this notice is marked on both the site location map and the site layout plan.

A notice MUST have appeared in an approved newspaper... be it a local or national newspaper.

The only hope you have is that some semi-state body such as an taisce or the fisheries board appeal the decision. They can make an appeal without having submitted to the application.

What often happens (even though it is now outlawed under the regulations) is that the developer leaves the original site notice in place (they are meant to take it down) and when they submit a new application they then replace the old site notice for the new: Nobody notices the new site notice!
If the councils were to do their jobs properly, they would be prosecuting developers for leaving old planning site notices in place......

If you go to the council offices and inspect the planning file, you will find a copy of the new site notice, and an (original) copy of the newspaper notice.

seamus

If this is a rural county beginning and ending in W, then I wouldn't be surprised if there was no site notice and instead a brown envelope was erected in a councillor's pocket.

It would be very rare (and easily spotted) if permission was granted without a site notice erected. You will have to check the plans to find out where they claim to have put up the notice.

Gurgle

cjpm wrote: »

A lot of people would have objected had it been erected, as they did last time.

Any point in asking why?

mickdw

It has been known to happen that the site notice only goes up for a day or 2 when the planner is going to visit. This is going against all regulations but it happens. As long as the applicant has the ear of a councillor etc, they will know exactly when the planner is visiting. The site notice will obviously be submitted with the application as normal.

The newspaper notice would have to be published though but more than likely in one of the less popular approved papers

tred

cjpm wrote: »

Folks,

There was no site notice. A lot of people would have objected had it been erected, as they did last time. Not one person objected. No one knew.

Council wouldnt grant planning if no site notice in place. The planner would have to check and validate details and date on the site notice. My neighbour got turned down a few years ago after wind, knocked over the sign....
now unless ur trying to say there was a conspiracy between the planners and builder...which i doubt in these days.

I cant even see how a councillor would know the daily visits of an engineer unless they were all in cahoots you saying?, bigger questions to ask then.

Poor Uncle Tom

How did you find out planning permission was granted?
How long ago was it granted?

cjpm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

How did you find out planning permission was granted?
How long ago was it granted?

Heard from a local.

It was granted a few weeks ago, less than a month i think.
Usual conditions attached regarding bonds etc....

Mellor

cjpm wrote: »

Folks,

There was no site notice. A lot of people would have objected had it been erected, as they did last time. Not one person objected. No one knew.

How can you be sure, if it was just granted, then the notice was in place months ago, for 5 weeks only. It could easily be missed. A site notice is needed, or else it won't even be considered for planning.
Ditto for newspaper
As for complaining about the new number, the council assign a number, not the developer, all PP apps have a separate number, this is not underhanded.

All of your complaints, are basic local gossip and a lack of understanding of the planning system.
You may have left it too late to appeal also. Somebody adjacent can appeal without and objection

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

The only hope you have is that some semi-state body such as an taisce or the fisheries board appeal the decision. They can make an appeal without having submitted to the application.

I believe that is no longer the case. They must have their submissions in the same as everyone else. However the net has widened with regards to the list of "statutory bodies" that details of certain applications are referred to for their consideration.

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

I believe that is no longer the case. They must have their submissions in the same as everyone else. However the net has widened with regards to the list of "statutory bodies" that details of certain applications are referred to for their consideration.

thanks for that muffler....

when did this change?? would you have a link by any chance??

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

thanks for that muffler....

when did this change?? would you have a link by any chance??

I stumbled across this a few years ago - I think it was around '02 but I'll have a look for a link.

I had lodged an application for a single house for my wife's nephew and while the council decided to grant Duachas immediately lodged an appeal but it was dismissed on the spot as they didn't have their submissions made on the application.

Not relevant to the topic here but as it turned out there was an underground burial chamber located directly below the footprint of the proposed house. The guy never built on that site but reapplied for a different site on the family farm and is now living in a nice new home

sydthebeat

its ok muffler, i had a quick look at the ABP website...

you are correct. however there are 3 "exemptions" to the submission rule and i think the first one is very interesting:

(1) where a prescribed body was entitled to be notified of a planning application by the planning authority and was not notified in accordance with law, the body may appeal the decision of the planning authority without having made submissions or observations on the planning application,

From looking back on some recent planning applications, it seems like the councils do not refer the applications to prescribed bodies as a matter of course, unless specifically required to do so such as applications on listed buildings etc.

so in many cases there is still lee-way for prescribed bodies to appeal without having made submissions, if the council had not notified them of the application.