Are the commandments/rules of the Old Testament void for Christians?

strobe

So, a few times now in relation to various topics I have read, the Christians here have said that what was put forward in the Old Testament as "law" was only meant to apply for the old Jewish society of 1BC and back. If I am understanding it right, things like the Old Testament rules on dealing with homosexuality, food allowances etc were only supposed to apply in that time to make that society suitable for the introduction of Jesus. Am I right so far?

My question is does that mean Christians believe that only the things that are specifically mentioned in the New Testament are what the rules are these days, and everything in the Old Testament is null and viod unless it is repeated by Jesus in the New Testament?

{I hope that makes sense, let me know and I'll try to clarify if it doesn't}

crotalus667

Old testament law still stands according to the bible , at about several points jesus refers to it and instructs that it must be followed ,

lmaopml

Why would anybody argue the Commandments unless common sense goes on vacation? I have never heard any Christian argue the 'passing' of the 'Ten Commandments'???

I will say that Christians are asked to have 'common sense', and Jesus brought a new 'era' in regards to who 'Gods people' should be, welcome the 'Gentiles', and the good 'Samaritans' and the 'Prodigal sons'...How lovely!

....but the 'Commandments' encompass everybody for all time, they're basic way to live and let live.

I've never heard a Christian say that 'All' that has gone before is re-written????

However, I do know a few Christians who would recommend 'Jesus' as bringing the 'good news'...and a brand new - and the very 'last' covenant?

What exactly is the point?...cause I'm sure there is a point somewhere that will be arrived at either by the long road or the short?

Soul Winner

The law still stands and is open to anyone who can keep it all, and if you think you can then you must keep it perfectly from birth, you can't even think a wrong thought all the days of your life. In fact the New Testament quotes the Old Testament in this regard i.e. those who do these things shall live in them (Leviticus 18:5 and Galatians 3:12). You not only have to keep it but you have to know it perfectly too, and not just the ten commandments either, the whole Old Testament is the law, especially the first five books of Moses, The Torah, and ignorance is no excuse.

Now the question has to be asked. Before we even try and start keeping this law can we honestly say that we even know it all perfectly? Every jot and tittle? And if we can say that have we do know it, have we kept it all perfectly and perpetual from birth? If so, then we've nothing to worry about, we will be justified by the law when entering heaven, as long as we keep perfectly and perpetually until that time. We'll get a nice big pat on the back as we float in.

But if we haven't kept it and still want to be justified by it, then we will be judged by it and be condemned by it. Why? Because the law requires that not one jot or tittle be missed. Paul uses one word for sin in the New Testament i.e. Harmatia, which literally means to fall short of the mark. And a miss is as good as a mile.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

But if we discern that we don't know the law perfectly or have kept it perfectly and crave the forgiveness of God for our short failings (sins), then it has already been provided in the sacrificial work of Christ. He paid for everyone's short failings, past, present and future, and is alive again to justify us by faith in this great gift. The Old Covenant (Testament) was performance under the law and we were judged by that standard, but the New Covenant is of faith in Christ, total trust in His perfect performance.

So that's the Old and New Testament right there. But for the Grace of God we would all be found wanting on that day, but thank God we do not have to be judged by that standard. Those with faith in Christ are covered by His work. But those who do not accept this covering and think they can make it on by their own performance had better make sure they haven't miss one jot or tittle of this perfect standard.

For those who have never heard of the law or of Christ, they'll be judged by the own standard, and if they have no confidence even in that and would respond to the knowledge of what Christ did for them if they had heard it (God knows their hearts), then they too will be forgiven their own short failings and their short failings of God's law that they didn't even now they did, and all because of what Christ did on the cross, praise His name.

But just in case some still might feel God will go easy on them because they think they are holy or think they are OK because they regard themselves as good people, then listen to the following quotes from some of God's greatest saints in the Bible:

Abraham: "I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies.." Genesis 32:10

Isaiah: "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips.." Isaiah 6:5

Paul: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15

Read what Paul says about the law here. In fact read the whole book of Galatians and see how Paul, the greatest and most important of all the Apostles, deals with the law.

lmaopml

Great post soulwinner! I agree with you that when Jesus sacrificed himself he covers the sins of our imperfection as regards keeping the commandments completely and totally....He is the new covenant, our 'saviour'...and inspiration to 'rise above' this life and look to the next, not for reward, but for the reward of knowing we defied ourselves...and defying ourselves is to quite 'literally' LIVE the commandments.

...However, and I know it's not something that some of my fellow Christians believe - I myself, amongst others of my denomination, would agree that our sins being 'covered' by Jesus doesn't permit us knowingly breaking the law...it doesn't seperate us totally, but it seperates us enough..

...God will judge us! ...and that is the sweetest thing, because he is fair..

strobe

lmaopml wrote: »

Why would anybody argue the Commandments unless common sense goes on vacation? I have never heard any Christian argue the 'passing' of the 'Ten Commandments'???

I will say that Christians are asked to have 'common sense', and Jesus brought a new 'era' in regards to who 'Gods people' should be, welcome the 'Gentiles', and the good 'Samaritans' and the 'Prodigal sons'...How lovely!

....but the 'Commandments' encompass everybody for all time, they're basic way to live and let live.

I've never heard a Christian say that 'All' that has gone before is re-written????

However, I do know a few Christians who would recommend 'Jesus' as bringing the 'good news'...and a brand new - and the very 'last' covenant?

What exactly is the point?...cause I'm sure there is a point somewhere that will be arrived at either by the long road or the short?

I'm not sepcifically talking about Moses' ten commandments lmaopml, just the various rules that are throughout the bible.

Take for example, the rule that says you're not to eat shellfish. Or that homosexuals or disrespectful children should be put to death. That kind of stuff. I have heard people on here say it doesn't apply anymore because those rules were only in place to make the Jewish community suitable for the coming of Jesus and doesn't apply to the world nowadays. So I was just wondering how people decide which laws are void and which are still in effect?

Fanny Cradock

crotalus667 wrote: »

Old testament law still stands according to the bible ...

But that is not quite true.

mehfesto

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But that is not quite true.

Why not?

lmaopml

Hi strobe,

I thought you meant the Ten Commandments sorry!

Phew, as for the other laws of the old Testament, like 'meat' and shellfish etc. I guess for me Paul summed it up in Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful natureURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galations%205&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29160a"]a[/URL; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galations%205&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29161b"]b[/URL 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.


I particularly like his last sentiment, not to sweat the small stuff with eachother.....cool guy!:)



Also in Acts 10 when Peter preaches to the Gentiles which would have been forbidden under Jewish 'law'....and they are surrounded by the Holy Spirit and hear him in their native tongue......God had made what was 'unclean', 'clean' with his new Covenant to embrace all people for all time, but only through faith in Christ.


Hope I explained how I would think about your query ok, I'm a newbie in many ways...

PDN

mehfesto wrote: »

Why not?

Because the New Testament states that the Old Testament laws were fulfilled with the coming of Christ and so are not binding upon Christians.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

So, at least one of the Ten Commandments, the one about the Sabbath, evidently is not binding upon Christians. Most Christians recognise this and treat Saturday just like any other day.

lmaopml

We do keep holy the 'Lords Day' though...

..now I'm thinking and it can be dangerous..lol..

I wonder is it a metaphorical 'full stop' on recognising the new Covenant?

...perhaps meant as an early psychological 'break away' from what was past? something like circumcision and 'baptism'...

...so many parallels, but plainly 'distinguished' as new laws in Christ when read in context with NT scripture?

strobe

Thanks for the responses. I guess there is a fair bit of contention on the issue amongst people. Out of curiosity, is that likely to be between different denominations or would it be more likely the contention lies between individual Christians, as in random people in the same denomination would probably disagree with each other as much as random people in the same denomintion?

That's an aside, my main question is wether everything in the Old Testament is null and viod unless it is repeated by Jesus in the New Testament? PDN said the New Testament states that the Old Testament laws were fulfilled with the coming of Christ and so are not binding upon Christians. So does that mean nothing in the old testament stands unless Jesus gives it the green light in the NT and anything he doesn't mention is out? If not how do you decide what is "kosher" and what isn't?

lmaopml

Hi Strobe,

Edit: I don't think there is any real 'contention'? among Christians on the thread..or at least I don't sense it so much?

....maybe Seventh Day Adventists have a bone to pick..lol..but there is a good explanation for everything.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

So does that mean nothing in the old testament stands unless Jesus gives it the green light in the NT and anything he doesn't mention is out? If not how do you decide what is "kosher" and what isn't?

It's a bit more complex than that.

Some Old Testament commands are specifically reinforced in the New Testament (not necessarily in the words of Jesus)- eg: Don't steal, don't murder, don't worship idols, don't commit adultery.

Some Old Testament commands are specifically stated in the NT as being fulfilled and therefore not binding - eg circumcision, dietary laws, the Sabbath.

If we compare these then we see a clear pattern. The things that are reinforced seem to be moral issues whereas the things that are fufilled tend to be ceremonial or ritual requirements. Therefore most Christians either consciously or subconsciously, make a distinction between what is moral and what is ceremonial.

Therefore we still feel we should obey the OT laws about showing justice and mercy to the immigrants or the oppressed, but we happily ignore the OT law that says you shouldn't weat clothing of mixed fibres.

This extends to the puishments attached to breaking the law. We still think adultery is wrong, but we don't advocate stoning adulterers to death etc.

Soul Winner

strobe wrote: »

So does that mean nothing in the old testament stands unless Jesus gives it the green light in the NT and anything he doesn't mention is out? If not how do you decide what is "kosher" and what isn't?

Its really simple. If you are under any of the law then you have to keep all of it. If you are under grace then you just have to keep trusting in God. Ask yourself the following question: What do you want from your loved ones? Your kids, spouse, partner, lover or whoever. Do you want them to trust you or to be perfect people? Its the same with God. God has perfection flying around Him 24/7. He already knows that we are not perfect, so can you imagine how put off He gets when we offer Him our so called perfect performance? I can hear Him now: "Yikes!!!" That's the way it is without the covering of Christ. That is what God was teaching in the whole Old Testament. Even the High Priest with all his ceremonial washings (which were typical of our efforts to be clean before God) dared not come into God's presence without the blood of the sacrifice. It was on the basis of that spilled blood and that alone that gave the high priest standing before God.

Anyway, Jesus had a great way exposing self righteousness. He wasn't happy that we simply don't commit adultery or murder or stealing or whatever, He says that if we even think the thought then we are as guilty as the person who commits the act.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28

So if we want to make it in by our performance under the law then under Jesus' standard we can't even think a wrong thought. This is what being under the law means and is what caused Paul to pen Romans 7: where at the end of that chapter he was forced to cry out: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He knew how much he fell short of the law. He knew that a power more powerful than what his performance under the law was able to muster was needed to deliver him. And he thanks God that such deliverance was provided for in Jesus.

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 7:22-25 - Romans 8:1-5

To offer our fleshly efforts of keeping the law is to walk after the flesh, but to trust in what God has already provided in Christ is to walk after the spirit. It's a message that is so easily lost, which is why it must be clung onto and defended because all contradictions to it are anathema of God.


"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9

Twice Paul says this, one after the other, which means that he was very very serious about what he was saying. The word grace simply means unmerited favor i.e. it cannot be merited no matter how good you think your performance under the law is. "..it is a gift from God, not of works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 When you try to merit it by observing certain parts of the law, you have stepped out from under Christ's covering protection from the curse of the law, drawing that curse down upon yourself. There are so many so called Christians out there going to hell because they think that their faith in their own performance under the law will impress God, it won't. Anything less than faith in Christ's performance will send you to hell. No point in mincing words.

lmaopml

I've read your post a couple of times soulwinner, and it's a good one. I agree with you wholeheartedly that all 'merit' stems from and belongs to God, from accepting the grace of God in Christ and the Holy Spirit working from within to love others and give of ourselves by allowing Christ to take control.....and it shows without and is a testimony for others to accept the grace of Christ too....

..or at least we hope it does...

I often wondered about this topic and felt there was a language or expression barrier that seems to be a monster when it's really a knat between most denominations.

Leaving aside perhaps the osas or predestination debate - there doesn't seem to be a humongous difference on justification within Christianity to me anyways..

Soul Winner

lmaopml wrote: »

I've read your post a couple of times soulwinner, and it's a good one. I agree with you wholeheartedly that all 'merit' stems from and belongs to God, from accepting the grace of God in Christ and the Holy Spirit working from within to love others and give of ourselves by allowing Christ to take control.....and it shows without and is a testimony for others to accept the grace of Christ too....

..or at least we hope it does...

I often wondered about this topic and felt there was a language or expression barrier that seems to be a monster when it's really a knat between most denominations.

Leaving aside perhaps the osas or predestination debate - there doesn't seem to be a humongous difference on justification within Christianity to me anyways..

Everyday is an opportunity for faith. We see God's promises being defied by life's circumstances all the time. But the man and woman of faith says: God damn the circumstances, my God's Word says differently and I will grab hold of His promises no matter what the circumstances say and will keep hanging on in faith until God either takes me home or until He dissolves the circumstances down here. That's what faith is. As along as we are acting like this every day then we are in Christ. As soon as we get off this track then we backslide and are back in the flesh. Its a tough message but not anything near as tough as trying to keep the law.

It is the burden that Jesus gives us but it is possible. All we need to do is look for a promise of God which defies our circumstances and grab hold of it. And how we grab hold of it is to claim it by speaking it and believing with our hearts that God will bring it to pass.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10.

Paul says:

"For all the promises of God in him (Christ) are yea, and in him Amen (so be it), unto the glory of God by us." 2 Corinthians 1:20

For example if you are sick and need healing then His promise is that He will heal you.

"...for I am the Lord that healeth you". Exodus 15:26.

When you're sick and you claim this promise, God will either heal you down here or take you home while you're clinging to His Word of promise. Its the same with provision. "The LORD will Provide." Or if you need comfort or peace or whatever.

"As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you..." Isaiah 66:13.

There is a promise and name of God that can fit any earthly circumstance. But only those who execute this faith daily right up to the end will be saved. Paul says to the Colossians that they must:

"...continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." Colossians 1:23.

But if we do fall off the track for whatever reason then we can always start over with God, we just ask His forgiveness and get up pointing the right direction and start doing this type of action again. This is the true Gospel of God and it is not being preached enough in the pulpits. God's grace is truly amazing.

Those who want to resurrect the law in order to get better performances out of their congregations are putting the cart before the horse. Teach faith in God's promises and after a while the fruits will appear and they will be true fruits of the indwelt spirit of God who will only take up His abode in those who trust His Word of promise.

There is a huge difference between obeying a command of the law and getting all self righteous because you can do it, and simple faith action on a promise of God. Paul makes the distinction between these two types of people in Galatians 4:21-31, where he calls those who are under law the children of the bond woman and those who trust a promise as children of the free woman. Abraham tried to do God's will in the flesh with Hagar the slave woman and produced Ishmael but God said no, the son of promise is to be through Sarah. When Abraham acted on this promise God provided the miracle child Isaac. Paul uses this analogy to distinguish between those who are in bondage to the law and those are free in Christ and says that we are not children of the bond woman but of the free woman and heirs of the promise and sons of God through Christ who was the first fruits of many brethren.

Jesus said:

"...a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:34-36