Proliferation of the Black Economy

Rabidlamb

I live in an estate of 16 houses so as neighbours we all know each other.

At present 4 families mind kids full-time while claiming full dole.
One guy goes door to door fixing computers for cash in hand.
One guy is a freelance painter full-time dole collector.
Another father of 2 works 3 days a week for cash at a local golf course.

Back in the good times all these people worked good PAYE jobs.
I'll never rat them out as they are my neighbours & friends.
I could be living next to them for the next 20 years.
They are only trying to do good by their families & live above the breadline.

When did the black economy become so acceptable again ?.

Banned Account

Hear you're a racist now father ...

Rabidlamb

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Hear you're a racist now father ...

It's the Mary O'Rourke sense of the word.

Pittens

i think this kind of stuff is acceptable. Introduce a citizens wage. Untaxed. Then do what you want.

EDIT: It would have to be lower than social welfare.

WindSock

Rabidlamb wrote: »

When did the black economy become so acceptable again ?.

When there is a serious lack of jobs I'd guess.

Rabidlamb

WindSock wrote: »

When there is a serious lack of jobs I'd guess.

But there are jobs, just under the counter ones.

The more this goes on the more the decent PAYE worker will feel like a muppet.
It's a spiral that will reduce the tax take even further.

Wazdakka

LOL... Wut?

AnonoBoy

It's certainly hard to argue with someone who's just doing it to keep their head above water, people who would love to get back to working full-time again but just can't find the jobs.

If I had kids and was made redundant then I have to say I would do everything I could to make sure I kept a roof over their heads and food on the table.

Also, it's very hard to judge someone who's scraping by doing the best they can when the upper echelons of society have been raping the country's coffers for the past decade.


But if someone's getting a full wage from their cash in hand job and still claiming the dole - that's when it gets too much.

It's a tough one really.

Mr Benevolent

Report them if you're so outraged OP.

thebigbiffo

welcome to the recession!

Banned Account

Rabidlamb wrote: »

It's the Mary O'Rourke sense of the word.

Goddam FF TD's coming over here and stealing our jobs:mad:

Rabidlamb

Confab wrote: »

Report them if you're so outraged OP.

No I wont cause in my eyes they aren't committing a crime.
Well there's that & if I was sussed as a grass my house would be burnt down.

My point was when did it become acceptable again.
Sure everyones at it.
We're a great bunch of lads.

ScumLord

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Back in the good times all these people worked good PAYE jobs.

No what you do is become the kingpin of the black market by blackmailing them all. You'll need to choose a song to play during the montage of your rise to power before hand, trying to think of it at the time ruins the flow and will get you caught by the guards.

Pittens

Also, it's very hard to judge someone who's scraping by doing the best they can when the upper echelons of society have been raping the country's coffers for the past decade

Yep. No system of morality can survive if the ruling classes are in obvious breach of it.

brianthebard

Rabidlamb wrote: »

But there are jobs, just under the counter ones.

under the counter = black economy. So again what's the difference? And where are these under the counter jobs advertised, I need something to do.

karma_

Rabidlamb wrote: »

No I wont cause in my eyes they aren't committing a crime.
Well there's that & if I was sussed as a grass my house would be burnt down.

My point was when did it become acceptable again.
Sure everyones at it.
We're a great bunch of lads.

What would you do, if you have a few kids, a big mortgage to pay and you lost your job?

would you try and make a few quid whatever way you could?

Would you want someone reporting you?

Rabidlamb

Also, it's very hard to judge someone who's scraping by doing the best they can when the upper echelons of society have been raping the country's coffers for the past decade

Pittens wrote: »

Yep. No system of morality can survive if the ruling classes are in obvious breach of it.

This is the very essence of it all.
Well put, both of you.

thebigbiffo

again, the crux of the welfare spongers argument is that each individual is different.

i know a 25 y/o single male who lives with his folks (who pay all the bills etc), draws the dole and works odds jobs, but very regularly. he can afford foreign holidays, sessions, a car etc. this is totally not on and should be cracked down on.

whatever about a lad trying to make a few extra quid so the kids can go on the school tour with a few bob the back burner or the family can get down to tramore for a weekend...a young lad living at home and workin all the hours he can get his hands on is the real problem and costing the country the real money

Wicklowrider

thebigbiffo wrote: »

again, the crux of the welfare spongers argument is that each individual is different.

i know a 25 y/o single male who lives with his folks (who pay all the bills etc), draws the dole and works odds jobs, but very regularly. he can afford foreign holidays, sessions, a car etc. this is totally not on and should be cracked down on.

whatever about a lad trying to make a few extra quid so the kids can go on the school tour with a few bob the back burner or the family can get down to tramore for a weekend...a young lad living at home and workin all the hours he can get his hands on is the real problem and costing the country the real money

Agree absolutely.
BUT - work from the top down. When our wealthiest are sorted and behaving ( example: the property magnate who recently put his hand out to NAMA for 280 million while at the same time paying €500 a night for a hotel room in Marrakesh.) move down to the hidden middle class ( ie the managers of state sponsored schemes etc, recent court case indicates huge swindles here). Then sort out the hidden earnings of our double jobbing civil servants, Gardai etc.
Finally go after the little people working for cash in hand - because they are stealing crumbs, even though they shouldn't be doing it at all.

orourkeda

Working for cash in hand is fine. Do it if you must.

Just bear this in mind.

The next time one of these people has to go to a crappy A&E department, when their kids are sitting in a badly heated prefab in school in the middle of January, when you are driving down a road full of potholes you have absolutely no right to complain about it.

Someone has to pay to keep this country running and it isnt any of these people. I'm unemployed but any bits of work i've managed to pick up has been above board and I cant see why anyone would go black market.

ToxicPaddy

People doing work on the side for a few quid extra was never unacceptable from what I can see.. most of the people I knew in the building industry were doing nixers to get an extra few quid..

The whole working fulltime and claiming the dole on the other hand is something I dont agree with at all.. Its fraud, pure and simple..

Granted as the OP said, most of the people he knows have been made unemployed so they are just trying to keep their head above water, but remember that most who are made unemployed not only lose their wages, they also lose their benefits too, so things such as healthcare and pension go out the window..

If someone has a family and are used to have VHI etc cover, they will want to keep that as the public healthcare system in this country is a joke.. and for a family of 4 or 5 that's few grand a year..

If you have a car thats expensive to run and maintain, you sell it, cover the finance and walk away.. easy enough to do..

Other things such as school books, kids uniforms, putting food on the table, etc cant be avoided.. so I can perfectly understand why these people do what they do..

Tox

karma_

orourkeda wrote: »

Working for cash in hand is fine. Do it if you must.

Just bear this in mind.

The next time one of these people has to go to a crappy A&E department, when their kids are sitting in a badly heated prefab in school in the middle of January, when you are driving down a road full of potholes you have absolutely no right to complain about it.

Someone has to pay to keep this country running and it isnt any of these people. I'm unemployed but any bits of work i've managed to pick up has been above board and I cant see why anyone would go black market.

are you paying a mortgage? If so are you able to handle it ok with just the odd days work and the money you get from the dole?

I think the OP stated that before this mess these people were working legit jobs.

It's not an ideal situation but in extreme circumstances people do what they need to do to survive.

orourkeda

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It's certainly hard to argue with someone who's just doing it to keep their head above water, people who would love to get back to working full-time again but just can't find the jobs.

If I had kids and was made redundant then I have to say I would do everything I could to make sure I kept a roof over their heads and food on the table.

Also, it's very hard to judge someone who's scraping by doing the best they can when the upper echelons of society have been raping the country's coffers for the past decade.


But if someone's getting a full wage from their cash in hand job and still claiming the dole - that's when it gets too much.

It's a tough one really.

It's not hard. They are scamming and should be treated as scammers. It's not on the same scale as the property developers bailout but it's essentially dishonest and cannot be excused.

The upper echelons have raped this country (your words) because they have been allowed to do it practically unchecked. Who do we blame for this? The people who steal or the people who allow them to steal and do nothing about it. As I see it its probably a mixture of both.

Banned Account

karma_ wrote: »

are you paying a mortgage? If so are you able to handle it ok with just the odd days work and the money you get from the dole?

I think the OP stated that before this mess these people were working legit jobs.

It's not an ideal situation but in extreme circumstances people do what they need to do to survive.

You could always declare the odd day's work you are picking up and sign off accordingly that way you can earn some money without breaking the law;)

brianthebard

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

If you have a car thats expensive to run and maintain, you sell it, cover the finance and walk away.. easy enough to do..

Other things such as school books, kids uniforms, putting food on the table, etc cant be avoided.. so I can perfectly understand why these people do what they do..

Tox

Right good idea sell the car, that will definitely increase a person's ability to find a job. The inconvenience of no longer being able to transport your family as before (doing the shopping or leaving the kids to school now becomes more difficult), inability to make interviews at certain times or canvass the local town/city for jobs, and especially preventing yourself from applying for jobs which involve travelling, are all a really important part of putting on a hair shirt so that the angry mobs on boards feel good about people living on the social welfare.

orourkeda

karma_ wrote: »

are you paying a mortgage? If so are you able to handle it ok with just the odd days work and the money you get from the dole?

I think the OP stated that before this mess these people were working legit jobs.

It's not an ideal situation but in extreme circumstances people do what they need to do to survive.

I dont have a mortgage but the rent still has to be paid. I havent had to scam the system to pay the rent luckily. I understand that people are having difficulties paying their way. The difficulty I have is that there is an element of hypocrisy on both sides of this argument. On one hand some people will criticise the property and banking bailout (probably rightly so) but on the other hand will work for cash in hand on the "black economy".

You cant have it both ways. My point is if you are in a position that you need to work in a job that the OP describes you are no longer in a position to criticise anyone else.

ToxicPaddy

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Agree absolutely.
BUT - work from the top down. When our wealthiest are sorted and behaving ( example: the property magnate who recently put his hand out to NAMA for 280 million while at the same time paying €500 a night for a hotel room in Marrakesh.) move down to the hidden middle class ( ie the managers of state sponsored schemes etc, recent court case indicates huge swindles here). Then sort out the hidden earnings of our double jobbing civil servants, Gardai etc.
Finally go after the little people working for cash in hand - because they are stealing crumbs, even though they shouldn't be doing it at all.

I have to agree there..

But you can guarantee that the the wealthiest are the ones who pay the least tax.. they have teams of people paid to figure out to pay as little as possible..

ScumLord

brianthebard wrote: »

Right good idea sell the car, that will definitely increase a person's ability to find a job. The inconvenience of no longer being able to transport your family as before (doing the shopping or leaving the kids to school now becomes more difficult), inability to make interviews at certain times or canvass the local town/city for jobs, and especially preventing yourself from applying for jobs which involve travelling, are all a really important part of putting on a hair shirt so that the angry mobs on boards feel good about people living on the social welfare.

If some thought had been put into planning in this country you wouldn't have poor saps stuck out in the arse end of nowhere unable to even feed their family without having a car to drive into town. In the UK people can't build outside of residential areas of towns, so that they can provide services like public transport.

Coriolanus

While I don't agree with it, Revenue have more cost effective ways of raising money. Tracking down an individual infraction just isn't cost effective and generally the amount of money we're talking about in each case is a drop in the water in the larger scheme of things.
If and when they can bring the political elite, bankers, solicitors, doctors etc under the microscope, where tax fraud is signifigantly more lucrative, then they can go after the poor mopes scraping by on less <10k a year.

NothingMan

I think I know where the OP lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_euIgECBJiY

Rabidlamb

The public perception is that bankers/developers/planners/politicans sold the country down the river for billions yet no heads are seen to roll.

At the same time the justice figures will tell you that hundreds of people were imprisoned for non-payment of a TV Licence or bin charges.

The welfare/tax system is based on honour for the most part, it cannot be policed fully.
When honest law abiding people can justify screwing the system then we have a problem.

mikom

Rabidlamb wrote: »

When did the black economy become so acceptable again ?.

When your tax money was being pissed away, that's when.

If I give my child a lollipop and she throws it on the ground, then asks for another one, gets another then fucks that away as well whilst asking for another ............ guess what ,she's not getting a third.

JONJO THE MISER

Yeah the Black Economy is pretty big where i am but sur what can ya do.
Between the bookies and the pubs and walking the dogs to siging on no one has time to work around these here parts.

Sea Sharp

Your IP has been traced and your friends are now fecked.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

I have to agree there..

But you can guarantee that the the wealthiest are the ones who pay the least tax.. they have teams of people paid to figure out to pay as little as possible..

The wealthiest actually pay the vast majority of tax.

I have absolutely no problem with people doing nixers, I never had a problem with it, I do have a problem with people working full time jobs and claiming social welfare and other things, like travel expenses when you are actually not travelling. Like claiming you live in Cork when you actually live in Dublin. Scum...

brianthebard

ScumLord wrote: »

If some thought had been put into planning in this country you wouldn't have poor saps stuck out in the arse end of nowhere unable to even feed their family without having a car to drive into town. In the UK people can't build outside of residential areas of towns, so that they can provide services like public transport.

Agreed but that's not going to comfort or help a person on the dole who has to hold on to their car and is getting flak in public or private as a result. Bottom line is people on boards are too eager to have everyone on social welfare don the hair shirt and eat nothing but baked beans and dandelions but reality quickly gets in the way of this 'noble morality'.

ToxicPaddy

brianthebard wrote: »

Right good idea sell the car, that will definitely increase a person's ability to find a job. The inconvenience of no longer being able to transport your family as before (doing the shopping or leaving the kids to school now becomes more difficult), inability to make interviews at certain times or canvass the local town/city for jobs, and especially preventing yourself from applying for jobs which involve travelling, are all a really important part of putting on a hair shirt so that the angry mobs on boards feel good about people living on the social welfare.

If you have a car thats expensive to run and maintain...

read what I said.. do you need a range rover/merceded/bmw etc if you're unemployed and looking for a job??

Oh look, this guy is unemployed but he drives a flash car, yes, lets give him and job, he looks like he needs to to cover the payments and keep his flash car... :rolleyes:

The context I was using it in...

If someone has a family and are used to have VHI etc cover, they will want to keep that as the public healthcare system in this country is a joke.. and for a family of 4 or 5 that's few grand a year..

If you have a car thats expensive to run and maintain, you sell it, cover the finance and walk away.. easy enough to do..

Other things such as school books, kids uniforms, putting food on the table, etc cant be avoided.. so I can perfectly understand why these people do what they do..

I was merely pointing out that things like expensive cars etc can be sold on to reduce costs.. expenses such as kids clothes, school books, health cover etc are not so easy to ignore and tough to cover if you're trying to support a family on the dole..

Do you read before you type??? :rolleyes:

brianthebard

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

read what I said.. do you need a range rover/merceded/bmw etc if you're unemployed and looking for a job??

Firstly you never specified certain makes of car, and secondly all cars are expensive to run, especially when you don't have a job. So your point it moot either way. But assuming you're right and these imaginary people should sell their fancy cars, what then? I guess you want them to buy older, cheaper models? In which case they'll be driving a most likely less safe vehicle, which is as or more expensive to maintain since older cars are less reliable and have poorer fuel consumption. So again all to satisfy your desire to see people don the hair shirt they get rid of their car for absolutely no benefit.

Wicklowrider

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

You could always declare the odd day's work you are picking up and sign off accordingly that way you can earn some money without breaking the law;)

We have a winner

ToxicPaddy

brianthebard wrote: »

Firstly you never specified certain makes of car, and secondly all cars are expensive to run, especially when you don't have a job. So your point it moot either way. But assuming you're right and these imaginary people should sell their fancy cars, what then? I guess you want them to buy older, cheaper models? In which case they'll be driving a most likely less safe vehicle, which is as or more expensive to maintain since older cars are less reliable and have poorer fuel consumption. So again all to satisfy your desire to see people don the hair shirt they get rid of their car for absolutely no benefit.

Firstly:

Yes I didnt specify models, but I did mention expensive to maintain and run!!!!!

If I downsized from a 2008 3ltr BMW costing 40k to a 2006 1.4ltr Focus costing €6k, I'd expect the smaller one to be cheaper to insure, tax, maintain, run etc.. but maybe I'm completely wrong here :rolleyes:

Yes cars are expensive, but as you said yourself, you're limiting employment options if you dont have one and you're not near a half decent public transport system.. but why have an expensive one, get a cheaper one..

As for safety -

BMW 5 Series NCAP
Ford Fiesta NCAP

Dont see a huge difference there..

Secondly:

As for expecting anyone to don the hair shirt.. that phrase that you seem to love so much.. :rolleyes:

My first post was saying that I have no problem with people doing some odd bits of work on the side if unemployed and claiming the dole, they are putting food on the table and trying to support their family...

Its the people working fulltime and claiming the dole that I have a problem with...

So please get off that high horse you're on and put it back in the paddock to graze..

brianthebard

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Firstly:

Yes I didnt specify models, but I did mention expensive to maintain and run!!!!!

Which is an absolutely meaningless phrase which doesn't make any difference in the situation where someone is on the dole and any car becomes expensive to maintain and run. No one has been talking about people working fulltime and getting the dole, you're the only one that's brought it up.

Banned Account

Wicklowrider wrote: »

We have a winner

Not infammatory enough for AH though.