Pogorelich.

Doshea3

Was at Ivo Pogorelich's recital in the NCH this evening...I've been a fan of Pogorelich for a long time, even in spite of his idiosyncrasies, and despite rumours of his descent into madness I still attended this evening. Luckily for me I got a free ticket, as I left minutes into the second half. I would have left earlier except I decided to use the beginning of the second half as a litmus test.

It was easily the most grotesque, unbelievable, bizarre, disturbing and contemptuous recital I have ever witnessed. Not just contemptuous towards the audience (a late start and punishingly slow speeds for all the pieces) but also contemptuous towards the music performed, distorting phrasing, rhythm, articulations, dynamics and all the most basic musical parameters so that the music performed was unrecognisable. It was a sad spectacle of a genius who has crossed the border into insanity. There was nothing redeeming about the performance. The first half was excruciating enough (it lasted almost an hour and a half for just a Chopin nocturne, Chopin sonata no. 3 and Liszt Mephisto Waltz no. 1), but the disrespect shown to the beloved Brahms A major intermezzo was unforgivable and frankly disgusting.

I am glad I didn't pay money for this. It was utterly abysmal behaviour. I left feeling almost physically sick and feel so betrayed by Pogorelich that I may never be able to listen to his recordings again.

Was anyone else there?

The Mad Hatter

Doshea3 wrote: »

grotesque, unbelievable, bizarre, disturbing and contemptuous

You left out unprecedented!

Norrdeth

Funky was I think, I'm sure he'll post something here laters........

Doshea3

I left out 'unprecedented' on purpose...didn't want to make it too obvious a Haugheyism.

I still don't know what Funky looks like so I haven't been able to meet him yet. Classical forum night out! Have been meaning to start a thread about it...will do soon.

funky penguin

I agree completely with you. Well.......99%, I thought the final movement of the Sonata was stunning, but its the kind of....em....perpetual motion (?) piece that doesn't allow you to do that weird slowing down thing he was doing. It wasn't even an extreme rubato....no elasticity at ALL.

The most excruciating for me was the central section in the Mephisto Waltz and the Brahms. I left after the Sibelius, could NOT stand to hear Ravel. Gaspard is supposed to be 30 mins or so, but I left at about 10.15, and according to my friend I was with (who courageously stayed till the end) he didn't finish until 11!!!! :eek:


I hear so many people complaining as I left the NCH. Like yourself doshea, I got the ticket for free, and I was incredibly grateful I didn't pay money for it.

9.30 for an interval!?

The nocturne......argh! It was so overly drawn out, it was.......ARGH!!!! Like yourself though, I think the Brahms did it for me. Completely different piece in his hands, unrecognisable. It made me so mad, my rant is incoherent and unstructured!!!

WHERE WAS HE FINDING THOSE INNER LINES!?!?!? WAS HE READING THE RIGHT SCORES?!!??!?!

SO MANY UNWRITTEN ACCENTS!!!!


Ahem.

funky penguin

Oh, and I was sitting right behind Michael Dervan. Can't wait to read his review, he seemed to be fidgeting quite a bit! :pac:

On a happier note, I discovered Barry Douglas is performing Brahms' 1st AND 2nd piano concertos next season. Can't wait!

Also, ALL of Rach's concertos. Yes, even the 4th! :eek:
oh, and Neilson's inextinguishable....Shostakovitch's 10th......Bach's BMinor.....Pictures at an exhibition (both versions)....I'm going to be so broke.

OxfordComma

I'm shocked! I was seriously considering going to this concert... Looks like it's a good thing I didn't. :eek:

From how you've described it above, it sounds horrendous. What a shame

Doshea3

Unwritten accents? The whole bloody concert was a massive accent!!

Funky, in the first half I was in row S, seat 8 I think; second half I sat in the very back row so I could leave if necessary without any disturbance. Saw Dervan—he seemed to have a perverse smile after the first half!! What do you look like? I may have seen you.

funky penguin

Row S? You were in the Row just in front me then, I was in T 23/22. I'm tall dark and handsome. :P Seriously, I'm tall enough, was wearing a black suit and white shirt because I was going to a funeral in Wexford the next morning. Glasses. Really short cropped hair, beard. Was there with Martin O'Leary, don't know if you know him.

Did you see Dervan in the stalls? I was literally sitting right behind him. He needs to get rid of that ponytail.

Or alternatively look at this. Sigh, friend being funny with an unflattering photo over on the NUIM forum.

banquo

funky penguin wrote: »

Or alternatively look at this. Sigh, friend being funny with an unflattering photo over on the NUIM forum.

Norrdeth

funky penguin wrote: »

I'm tall dark and handsome.

I actually lold, that's being added to my favourite quotes.......

Doshea3

Ah Funky, I did see you there, was actually standing yards from you in the foyer when you were talking to Martin O'Leary! Didn't make the connection... I'm about 6'4", dark hair and a beard, glasses (though may not have been wearing them), and was wearing a stripy pink and white shirt and drinking a gin and tonic before the concert (!).

Doshea3

And yes, I did see Dervan, I sat in the very back row at the beginning of the second half but promptly walked out...

Clinker

Intriguing! It sounds like it was a love it or loathe it concert. I almost wish I'd been there, though I suspect, given the challengingly slow tempi reported, that I would have hated it! But that's not a good thing: good is when you enjoy the concert, when you can travel with the performer to appreciate the alternative perspective they are offering on the music. Of course we might want to say that the perspective is so far removed from what is normally taken to be implied by the score as to be questionable as an interpretation, but I think to be able to travel to the performer's point of view, at least for the duration of the concert, is a wonderful thing.

Pogorelic’ seems to have been playing this programme for over a year now. Here are some reactions:

Here's what the Jerusalem Post said about Pogorelic’ playing the same programme in March.

And a more positive reaction in Hamburg a year ago.

Same programme at the Edinburgh Festival last August: a blogger is bemused by much of what he hears, but is impressed by Gaspard.

Another reaction to the Edinburgh performance. Again impressed by Gaspard, and prompted to ruminate on what exactly the transaction is between performer and audience in a piano recital. It seems that this was an inspiring experience for some, but that most were not able to travel far enough with Pogorelic’ to take in what he was doing. I suspect it could only work at a live performance and would be less satisfactory for repeated listening on a CD.

Review of the Edinburgh performance in The Scotsman: the reviewer is impressed, but stresses that it was "uncomfortable" to listen to.

GENIUS or wacko? The maverick Croatian pianist Ivo Pogorelich is both. From the Herald, Scotland.

Strasbourg, April 2009, same programme. Again the critic muses on what exactly Pogorelic’ is up to, but is impressed by Gaspard. (In German.) The critic had the impression of hearing hearing works which were at a stage of experimental preparation quite far removed from being ready for public performance. It seems that Pogorelic’ doesn't see it this way as he's performing the same programme a year on and provoking similar reactions! It is interesting that several critics find the performances thought-provoking rather than dismissing them out of hand even though they seem to contain extreme distortions of what one would usually expect.

BTW, what about all those free tickets you seem to have had? A colleague of mine was going on a freebie too: why am I never offered a free ticket? Why does everyone hate me?

The Mad Hatter

I talked to a couple of people last night who really enjoyed the concert. I'm sort of opposed to holding composers in reverence, so I guess I can see how it could be enjoyed. Will probably go see should he come to Ireland again.

Also:

The Jerusalem Post wrote:

Pogorelic´, known for his antics, scolded the crowd from the first piece, telling the audience to “stop talking!” while he was playing. He even had the insolence to admonish the Jerusalemites, who paid more than NIS 300 a head to see him, that “this is a concert hall, not your Knesset.” After that outburst and during the intermission some members of the audience left in protest, and during the second half, one of the “stop talking” scolds even prompted an audience member to shout back at Pogorelic´ to “stop playing!”

Doshea3

The Jerusalem Post wrote:

Pogorelic´’s playing of fortissimo notes (which he chose seemingly at random rather than based on the score) was so violent that during the intermission a tuner had to go on stage and bring the piano back up to pitch. These fortissimos would have been climactic as a cataclysmic effect designed to highlight the score and bring the musical arc to a peak. But instead they were so numerous and unevenly placed that they just made the whole recital, from start to finish, sound like jumbled, unseemly noise.

Pogorelic´, formerly one of the world’s finest pianists, simply shortchanged the audience. And he cannibalized Chopin, Liszt, Sibelius and Ravel.

And if that was Pogorelic´’s “quirky” personality coming through the mélange horrible of sounds, I would rather listen to any run-of-the-mill piano student. At least they would have the humility to hold the music with a minimum of reverence.

Sounds exactly like the Dublin recital. I stand by my first reaction: tragically vomworthy.

funky penguin

Met Mad Hatter on Saturday night! Had him back in my house playing Tekken!

I'm a little bit annoyed I left before Gaspard, Martin said it was excellent (appart from those crazy moments). The more I think about it, the more I'm glad I went to it for the experience of being there!

The Mad Hatter

funky penguin wrote: »

Met Mad Hatter on Saturday night! Had him back in my house playing Tekken!

Yes. It would seem I swear loudly and frequently when I'm losing.

Clinker

Dervan's review. He didn't like it either!

BTW

1. The ponytail must go. It looked stupid 20 years ago, incipient baldness pushing it down makes it worse!
2. What did Dublin do to deserve Dervan's miserable carping as its main form of music review for the last quarter century? Next, PLEASE!

The Mad Hatter

The playing was arbitrary, too, when it came to accentuation and dynamics. The composer asks for as quiet as possible? Never mind. Play it as loudly as you like. The composer writes a crescendo? Who cares? Get quieter if you prefer. The composer specifically says don’t speed up or slow down, as Ravel does, to convey the ominous tolling of a bell in Le Gibet ? Really, who’s he to know? Just do your own thing.

I have yet to hear a valid reason why performers "can't" do this. In fact, I think it would be infinitely refreshing for the classical music world if more performers did.

Norrdeth

What's the point in painstakingly writing a score then?
You might as well just tell them a story and let them go mad.

The Mad Hatter

Norrdeth wrote: »

What's the point in painstakingly writing a score then?
You might as well just tell them a story and let them go mad.

Don't get me wrong - I think that "faithful" interpretations are important too, but in a world of recordings, what's the point in having three dozen nearly-identical versions of the same piece?

I'm entirely in Gould's corner when he said that performers are now in the position where they should almost be "re-composers," and should always make sure that they bring something different to the piece.

An example: I have recordings of the Pathetique sonata by Daniel Barenboim, Arthur Schnabel, Arthur Rubinstein and Glenn Gould. At first I'd only listen to the Barenboim, as it was the only one I had. But I got the two Arthurs, and found I preferred the Rubinstein. Result: no more listening to Barenboim (except when I wasn't in the mood for hearing record scratch). But Gould's version is unique and strange enough that, even since I got it, I'll still go back and listen to the Rubinstein regularly. I have time for both, the way I don't with the other two.

Doshea3

My dear Mad Hatter, I always knew you were less of a Brendelian and more of a Gouldian.

Thank you for the review Mr Clinker. I was talking to a well-known conductor today (whose name I won't mention in case he gets sued!) who said that he doesn't give a toss what Dervan says about anything. Dervan's only claim to fame, he said, was playing recorder once with the NSO, when he was 658th on the deputy list, and only got to play because it was some shoyte piece by Gerald Barry that nobody else wanted to play!

Funky—Tekken? God, when I last played video games I owned a copy of Tekken 2!

Edit (as I didn't realise we'd gone onto a second page):

I think the whole question of 'faithfulness' is very thorny, and rests largely on the concept of 'style', whatever that means. In music where style is one of the foremost musical parameters then a performance which contravenes the important conventions of said style surely loses some of its basic substance. (I have been playing 'Carmen' all day and so my brain is not working well enough in order to express my complex thoughts coherently in words.)

For example, if one plays a Chopin nocturne as Pogorelich did on Wednesday last, surely the music ceases to be Chopin for it has lost the basic stylistic elements which characterise a Chopin nocturne. Also if one plays Debussy as if it were Liszt then the performance is not only unfaithful to the composer's intentions but musically inaccurate and so is technically not a valid performance of that particular piece of music. The performance itself is 'valid', of course, but the music is not being performed as notated and so the performance is not communicating the music as written by the composer but instead the whims of the performer. Bach, for example, does not exude an overwhelming 'stylistic' coherency in the same way Debussy does, and so his music is much more open to interpretation, as it were. To paraphrase Ravel (I think): 'I want my music to be played, not interpreted.'

I believe that a performer can improve upon a composer's score by adding as much as the music will allow without distorting the intentions of the composer, but should not willfully ignore directions by the composer, just in the same way one wouldn't change the notes of a piece or ignore certain sections of it. Admittedly a lot of performers have double standards when it comes to this issue...