Who knows about Pipe Flaring? (Old thread)

Matt Simis

The Flare Nut on the piping for my rear hydraulic system is destroyed, but I cannot get it off over the pipe end flare (by design of course). I have another flare nut on an old piece of pipe.. I could cut the old flare off the existing pipe in-situ on the car (cannot be removed), then put the replacement flare nut over the old pipe.. but what are my options on making a new pipe end flare (again in-situ, small hand tools only) to hold it in place?

Here is another Flare nut on a different replaced section of pipe with similar flare I can use as a replacement:


Here is what I had to do to the old threaded fitting to get it apart (rust siezed). New one is fine, but has the damaged Flare nut (some threads sawed off in the process) in it.


Here is the old butchered threaded fitting with the spare flare nut inserted.

Need to get that nut into the new threaded fitting (and the on-car pipe securely fitted).

Abelloid

You can flare the existing hard line in situ but in my experience cheap flaring tools make a sh!te job of it. What's at the other end? Could you get a new line made up ready to fit?

Abelloid

BTW, Plusgas from Radionics is magic with rust seized parts.

corktina

im sure your local garage would make up a new pipe with fittings of the desired length very cheaply...mine did this for me and even bent it to shape...

Matt Simis

JustinOval wrote: »

BTW, Plusgas from Radionics is magic with rust seized parts.

Thanks for the tip, will check it out!

corktina wrote: »

im sure your local garage would make up a new pipe with fittings of the desired length very cheaply...mine did this for me and even bent it to shape...

JustinOval wrote: »

You can flare the existing hard line in situ but in my experience cheap flaring tools make a sh!te job of it. What's at the other end? Could you get a new line made up ready to fit?

The other line runs up into the wheel arch then (afaik) the entire length of the car. It no doubt ducks in and out of inaccessible areas too. Id really rather not have to replace such massive stretches of core components just because of one bad nut.. I have a feeling it would be like pulling at a piece of thread, doesnt end well.
This is off the 100bar rear wheel steering btw, so its CHF that runs through it.

Abelloid

Best bet would be to try to borrow a flaring kit and practice with the other line you have.

Matt Simis

I tried an alternative:



First attempt last night resulted in nicely atomised CHF spraying out and through the hose clips. System pressure is 75 to 100bar. The rubber pipe is rated at 300bar (ie massive), the issue is the 4 hose clips cannot get enough pressure down on the rubber hose to hold onto to the steel pipe. Steel pipe OD is 5.5mm as is the ID of the Rubber hose.

This morning I roughened up the pipe (it was shiny and smooth on the last attempt) and put a film of TEC7 on it. Ill wait a few more hours for the TEC7 to cure before trying to crank it up again. Maybe there is some type of awesome clamping pressure clip out there Im unaware of that would make this easier?

Stoolbend

Matt Simis wrote: »

I tried an alternative:



First attempt last night resulted in nicely atomised CHF spraying out and through the hose clips. System pressure is 75 to 100bar. The rubber pipe is rated at 300bar (ie massive), the issue is the 4 hose clips cannot get enough pressure down on the rubber hose to hold onto to the steel pipe. Steel pipe OD is 5.5mm as is the ID of the Rubber hose.

This morning I roughened up the pipe (it was shiny and smooth on the last attempt) and put a film of TEC7 on it. Ill wait a few more hours for the TEC7 to cure before trying to crank it up again. Maybe there is some type of awesome clamping pressure clip out there Im unaware of that would make this easier?

That is probably the craziest, most dangerous thing i've ever seen.


I wouldn't drive that car. Get a mechanic to come out and replace that pipe before you kill someone!

(Are you taking the piss?)

Matt Simis

barry81 wrote: »

That is probably the craziest, most dangerous thing i've ever seen.
I wouldn't drive that car. Get a mechanic to come out and replace that pipe before you kill someone!

Hmm, Im unsure if you know something of technical merit or your simply have a taste for theatrics.
If you think the potential for leaky power steering fluid is so shocking, you really shouldnt read my threads (or motoring forums..). Power steering hoses leak, thats a reality, power steering is always at high pressure. Its a common scenario on any car. As it happens my power steering also "powers" rear steering hydraulically. If the system detects a deviation in rear steering (ie a fault), it has the ability to lock it dead in center and act like a normal car. What I loose is the rather pricey power steering fluid itself.

Generally a "mechanic" wont be familiar with whats in the car, the "find a man to help" approach isnt all that useful or practical.

The by the book fix would be to replace the line from back to rear. Ive already have a planB in place, line sourced etc. Its not all that cut and dry either as a Flange nut exists on both ends. It worth pointing out the hose in place exceeds system spec by 400%. Granted the unknown factor is the clamping force, but the hose has "no where to go", the steel piping either side is rigidly in place anyway. Finally, the only part where it leaked was where the piping was shiny and smooth, on the other side (which was slightly weather beaten) it stayed tight. I was advised by the hydraulic specialist I consulted (yeah, I actually do a lot more planning and research then perhaps Im credited for) that the piping should be scored to maintain adhesion. I also confirmed fluid chemical compatibility with the hose and CHF.

Lets all bear in mind that that the motoring masses tend to drive around with fluids dripping from cars frequently and at best address it by "topping up". I could have left it like it was (small leaks), this is at least a total fix.
But thats just what I think, can you explain why my leaking power steering is the most dangerous thing you have ever seen, in detail, please?

Abelloid

That's a loltastic bodge, and doomed from the start. ...but nobody died.

Stoolbend

I assumed it was brakes when you mentioned the rear of the car.

Either way if that pipe comes off I'd assume you'd lose all power steering if it's a high pressure pipe.

Matt Simis

JustinOval wrote: »

That's a loltastic bodge, and doomed from the start. ...but nobody died.

I prefer to think of my work as a kludge.

barry81 wrote: »

I assumed it was brakes when you mentioned the rear of the car.
Either way if that pipe comes off I'd assume you'd lose all power steering if it's a high pressure pipe.

Ah right, I wouldnt play with brakes like that.. I um, like the ability to stop! The brakes are a separate system that partially use the hydraulic boost from the PS.
In the event of a massive leak, I know from experience you dont instantly loose Power Steering (which when moving isnt that big a deal), the old rust knackered parts pictured did rupture when driving, but even then due to the fact there is litres of the stuff, you get a some tell tale signs (groaning steering) and a "Check P.A.S" error on the OBD.. and a big green puddle under the car.


PS: You have brakes at the front of a car too, larger and more important than the rears...!

Stoolbend

I retract my initial statement so.

Did you price the pipe new. It's not necessarily that big of a job just because it runs the length of car.

Matt Simis

barry81 wrote: »

Did you price the pipe new. It's not necessarily that big of a job just because it runs the length of car.

I paid EUR150 for a 35cm part, which was a mix of rubber and metal piping. This part is all metal but about 3meters long, I think its:
part: 33341138067. Ill ask BMW the price, would be real nice to have exact fit parts.

crosshair1

matt, I believe your bodge failed because you used lidl jubille clips!!
only joking but 100bar is 1500psi so only a crimped joint on flexi pipes will work, also beware at those pressures if you put a finger in to stop the leak you will not have same living finger tomorrow.

x in the city

Matt, get onto steve murphy in cork, he is a master of all things BMW,, (including 850CSis).

awesome machine you got man

Abelloid

Matt Simis wrote: »

I paid EUR150 for a 35cm part, which was a mix of rubber and metal piping. This part is all metal but about 3meters long, I think its:
part: 33341138067. Ill ask BMW the price, would be real nice to have exact fit parts.

No.1?

It's just a standard line, €15 max in any good motor factors.

For example, a complete hard line set for a VW beetle, £22 odd.

http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=1830&xSec=710

Matt Simis

JustinOval wrote: »

No.1?

It's just a standard line, €15 max in any good motor factors.

For example, a complete hard line set for a VW beetle, £22 odd.

http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=1830&xSec=710

Yeah, number 1. Hmm...... pity BMW wont be open till Tuesday! I found a price online, if correct only about EUR30! I guess the expensive smaller part I got was priced that way due to the fact it went from metal to rubber to metal. The line in question is not a "standard line" surely, its custom bent around 2 wheel arches and in and out all over the place, not to mention the 2x 12mm Flare Nuts may or may not be standard?

Id need to figure out where the other end goes though, I traced it from the rear wheel arch up to the front one then it disappeared. If replacing this requires removing a load of parts (not not just wheel arch bits) then it reduces the value a bit.

Abelloid

Seriously. You buy the line in reels or rolls, add the unions, flare the ends and then bend it to fit.

It sounds like it will be easier to just fit a new union and flare your existing line. I wouldn't waste any more time on it, drive to a good motor factors and ask them to do it for you.

Stoolbend

JustinOval wrote: »

Seriously. You buy the line in reels or rolls, add the unions, flare the ends and then bend it to fit.

It sounds like it will be easier to just fit a new union and flare your existing line. I wouldn't waste any more time on it, drive to a good motor factors and ask them to do it for you.

Power steering pipe would be bigger than brake pipes. I don't know of any flaring tools for them.

groupb

That pipe you showed in your origional pic is double flared for a reason.

Matt Simis

JustinOval wrote: »

Seriously. You buy the line in reels or rolls, add the unions, flare the ends and then bend it to fit.

It sounds like it will be easier to just fit a new union and flare your existing line. I wouldn't waste any more time on it, drive to a good motor factors and ask them to do it for you.

You are of course totally correct. The Motor Factors I rang previously (in Trim) didnt have any flare tools in stock and also didnt thing their tools would flare non copper pipe (think they may have been a bit confused on that one). Ill try another shop.

Right not I think best course of action is to flare both sides of the pipe and get some sort of union between them. Failing that, the complete ready to go part from BMW (which Ill order Tuesday but may take an age to get here).

Matt Simis

Just digging up my old thread, mind numbingly I have to replace it again (with BMW parts as I did the first time, it was impossible to find the pipe diameter or exact fittings either end, but installing was easy) as a car ramp in my garage slide under the car (as I reversed up it) and pinched the line and completely messed it up! I brought it to a Brake and Clutch place in NZ but they couldnt repair it anymore than the places in Ireland could, in this case they werent setup for metric fittings!?

9935452

crosshair1 wrote: »

matt, I believe your bodge failed because you used lidl jubille clips!!
only joking but 100bar is 1500psi so only a crimped joint on flexi pipes will work, also beware at those pressures if you put a finger in to stop the leak you will not have same living finger tomorrow.

They do look like lidl jubillie clips which i wouldnt rate for much .
The other problem is they were way too big of the job.
They are wound too tight they are no longer round and wont seal.
A good quality clip of the right size and this would have worked

Matt Simis

9935452 wrote: »

They do look like lidl jubillie clips which i wouldnt rate for much .
The other problem is they were way too big of the job.
They are wound too tight they are no longer and wont seal.
A good quality clip of the right size and this would have worked

I doubt it, even compression fittings are considered not up to the task of handling this pressure level, I cant see how (and considering I took it to several places, got braided lines and various others and tried multiple diff ring clips) they would ever work, in hindsight. Also there was the matter that the fitted pipe, front to rear of the car and with the fittings to screw in both sides (ie all pre-flared) was far cheaper than any of the other options, including braided hose..


EDIT:
Jubillie brand originals (the only ones small enough) are 200psi max rated and a Powersteering pump puts out about 1500psi.

keithclancy

Stoolbend wrote: »

I assumed it was brakes when you mentioned the rear of the car.

Either way if that pipe comes off I'd assume you'd lose all power steering if it's a high pressure pipe.

If you lose power steering nothing happens, there'll just be a buzzing noise from the pump running dry but you can still drive fine.

Was pretty common for steering racks to fail on the MK1 Octavia/ Golf/ Leon, nothing disastrous happened

kona

Can you use stainless?

Matt Simis

kona wrote: »

Can you use stainless?

Probably, Nickel Copper and SS are near each other on the galvanic scale. The problem is the fittings, in both Ireland and NZ I found no one (and I tried lots of places) that could do anything with the connectors, they are some older/unpopular DIN format. Pirtec even claimed they were completely custom size for this one BMW application.

Sobanek

Dissapears from Boards for nine months, digs up old thread about pipes :pac:

#JustMattSimisThings

Matt Simis

Sobanek wrote: »

Dissapears from Boards for nine months, digs up old thread about pipes :pac:

#JustMattSimisThings

I just really hated sorting this the first time round and to have to do it again for something so random as a sliding around car ramp... argh!

kona

Matt Simis wrote: »

Probably, Nickel Copper and SS are near each other on the galvanic scale. The problem is the fittings, in both Ireland and NZ I found no one (and I tried lots of places) that could do anything with the connectors, they are some older/unpopular DIN format. Pirtec even claimed they were completely custom size for this one BMW application.

Would it be possible to change the threads on the actual units?

Surely somebody knows exactley what the sizes are?

Matt Simis

The Brake and Clutch place here in NZ said they could get adapters from the metric fittings on both ends and run their pipe. But they would want to do the whole job themselves which they were making out as many hours of fitting, cutting and bending. I dont mind fitting it myself, its fairly easy.


Like last time.. I just bought the Pipe (and this time also the much more expensive one it connects to) from BMW, got a 10% discount as I was in a BMW club.

#1


#5


http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EG92&mospid=47329&btnr=33_0427&hg=33&fg=35

kona

Matt Simis wrote: »

The Brake and Clutch place here in NZ said they could get adapters from the metric fittings on both ends and run their pipe. But they would want to do the whole job themselves which they were making out as many hours of fitting, cutting and bending. I dont mind fitting it myself, its fairly easy.


Like last time.. I just bought the Pipe (and this time also the much more expensive one it connects to) from BMW, got a 10% discount as I was in a BMW club.

#1


#5


http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EG92&mospid=47329&btnr=33_0427&hg=33&fg=35

That's some price for a hose! By any chance would a union from a brake pipe be the same thread?

Matt Simis

kona wrote: »

That's some price for a hose! By any chance would a union from a brake pipe be the same thread?

Its not worlds apart size wise, maybe. But to confirm that I would have to dismantle the current setup, which is annoying to do more than once.

The bigger, more expensive hose (#5) has both rubber and metal parts and looks even more custom, it needs to be changed anyhow. I was planning on buying one of the 4 of these hoses and bringing them to Pirtek and seeing would they rig me up the other 3 cheaper than the BMW pricing.