Number of players?

wonton

I took out a rugby book from the local library and haven't read all the chapters yet but a paragraph in the last chapter got me wondering about playing numbers.

The book was published in 2007 and in this chapter the author uses quotes from an interview with Willie John mcBride.


"Interest in rugby union is surging worldwide.....It's just that playing numbers are declining in most countries at junior level.The problem is as Mcbride points out, 'If the grassroots is dying,then it is only a question of time before the top level suffers too.I see my country Ireland struggling to get enough players in ten years time."


That quote seems crazy to me, even before the grand slam i was under the impression, rugby was growing in playing population even in non-traditional rugby playing regions.



according to the irb website-

ireland has 57,700 teen male players, 207 clubs and 21,939 senior male players

so what do you think, had these been increasing or is it a post 2007 world cup phenomenon?


other countries numbers for comparison(some quite surprising).

England have 1,218,138 teen players,1900 clubs, and 705,752 senior male players.


New Zealand have 40,257 teen male players,562 clubs and 27,203 senior male players.

Italy have 21,210 teen male player,744 clubs and 15881 senior male players

Amazotheamazing

McBride is from Ulster, where the game is in serious trouble. Their clubs have pretty much collapsed over the last 20 years. They have loads of players but very few seem to be progressing from potential to developed. They still have a very strong schools system, but for the last decade or more they haven't translated that into successful senior teams. They still sell-out Ravenhill but do not have the scope for larger crowds that Lansdowne will give Leinster and Thomond gives Munster.

On the otherhand, clubs in Munster are in general getting stronger, rural clubs like Bruff and Nenagh are doing well in the AIL with homegrown, amateur squads, whereas our schools system is still considerably weaker than that of either Ulster or Leinster.

Were I an Ulster fan I'd be worried, larger gates and successful clubs getting players younger and younger will really pull Leinster and Munster away from them.

Of course, there's a large part of Ulster's community that simply don't see themselves as Ulster rugby supporters, the Ulster branch is working on changing this (huge successes in Donegal, iirc) but obviously some people will continue to see it as a "foreign" game. If they could tap into province wide support they could really change things around.

GSOIRL

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

McBride is from Ulster, where the game is in serious trouble. Their clubs have pretty much collapsed over the last 20 years. They have loads of players but very few seem to be progressing from potential to developed. They still have a very strong schools system, but for the last decade or more they haven't translated that into successful senior teams. They still sell-out Ravenhill but do not have the scope for larger crowds that Lansdowne will give Leinster and Thomond gives Munster.

On the otherhand, clubs in Munster are in general getting stronger, rural clubs like Bruff and Nenagh are doing well in the AIL with homegrown, amateur squads, whereas our schools system is still considerably weaker than that of either Ulster or Leinster.

Were I an Ulster fan I'd be worried, larger gates and successful clubs getting players younger and younger will really pull Leinster and Munster away from them.

Of course, there's a large part of Ulster's community that simply don't see themselves as Ulster rugby supporters, the Ulster branch is working on changing this (huge successes in Donegal, iirc) but obviously some people will continue to see it as a "foreign" game. If they could tap into province wide support they could really change things around.

Bit off the point on the OP but as regards Donegal. I have a fairly good knowledge of this and I'm not sure now succesful for Ulster this will be.

Ulster rugby don't seem to be too interested in Donegal. Yes they seem to be backing the Donegal Community Project but are they really putting enough into it. The main driving force behind this is leaving this year so it will be interesting to see how it continues. Everything is Belfast based. Ulster rugby still acts as a 6 county organisation in my opinion.

As for people from Donegal. Having lived and worked there for a time but being from Dublin I made a few observations. They are great people and some of them are huge(helps for rugby) but from what I could tell they don't see themselves as from Ulster. Most of them consider Ireland to be made up of 4 provincences and Donegal . The kids who play rugby mainly wear Munster and Leinster jerseys. Fav players are mainly, ROG, BOD and Stringer.

Amazotheamazing

GSOIRL wrote: »

Bit off the point on the OP but as regards Donegal. I have a fairly good knowledge of this and I'm not sure now succesful for Ulster this will be.

Ulster rugby don't seem to be too interested in Donegal. Yes they seem to be backing the Donegal Community Project but are they really putting enough into it. The main driving force behind this is leaving this year so it will be interesting to see how it continues. Everything is Belfast based. Ulster rugby still acts as a 6 county organisation in my opinion.

As for people from Donegal. Having lived and worked there for a time but being from Dublin I made a few observations. They are great people and some of them are huge(helps for rugby) but from what I could tell they don't see themselves as from Ulster. Most of them consider Ireland to be made up of 4 provincences and Donegal . The kids who play rugby mainly wear Munster and Leinster jerseys. Fav players are mainly, ROG, BOD and Stringer.

I was kinda getting at that, the Ulster branch are trying to change that perception but in general, Nationalists in Ulster (the province, not just the 6 counties) don't really identify with the team. If the branch are successful and get the Nationalists on board, i think Ulster's future is far brighter, it gives them a whole new source of fans and players. Obviously it will take time, but things like their project in Donegal are the way forward, imo.

anonymous_joe

Ulster are perceived by a lot of fans as a team for Protestants.

Just an inevitable side effect of things up there.

profitius

Rugby is growing all over the world. McBride must be looking at it from an Ulster point of view alright.

By the way those figures can't be accurate. Ireland and New Zealand have roughly the same population size and that says we've more teen players! Yeah right!!

Ulster have been going bad for the past few years. Not producing many players and are overshadowed by Leinster and Munster. Compare a young Ulster person to a young Leinster or Munster person and you'll see the Ulster fan has little to cheer about. Also basing everything in Belfast doesn't help.

big neilly

Originally Posted by GSOIRL
Bit off the point on the OP but as regards Donegal. I have a fairly good knowledge of this and I'm not sure now succesful for Ulster this will be.

Ulster rugby don't seem to be too interested in Donegal. Yes they seem to be backing the Donegal Community Project but are they really putting enough into it. The main driving force behind this is leaving this year so it will be interesting to see how it continues. Everything is Belfast based. Ulster rugby still acts as a 6 county organisation in my opinion.

As for people from Donegal. Having lived and worked there for a time but being from Dublin I made a few observations. They are great people and some of them are huge(helps for rugby) but from what I could tell they don't see themselves as from Ulster. Most of them consider Ireland to be made up of 4 provincences and Donegal . The kids who play rugby mainly wear Munster and Leinster jerseys. Fav players are mainly, ROG, BOD and Stringer.

I play rugby in Donegal at junior level and travel to clubs all over Ulster most of them have great set-ups, a good club house two or three pitches and i would guess 60 -70 % of them are putting out more than three teams each week. We struggle to get two teams out each week as do the other teams in Donegal which is 8 teams in 4 clubs in one of the largest counties in the country. There is more interest underage than ever before in Donegal that is largely down to the Donegal Community Rugby Project that has been running blitz and school competitions, 2 new clubs have been started in the county and most secondary schools now play rugby it will take time but Donegal is in a better place than it ever was in terms of playing numbers. The DCRP is going through changes the project manager is leaving but the project is going to continue with new staff in place.
Munster jerseys are more popular than Ulster tops but that is more to do with politics than rugby, you wouldnt see many Leinster tops up here either we wouldnt want to be seen supporting the Dubs :P
Rugby would be viewed as a Protestant game up here some slightly ignorant people would question why anybody from Donegal would want to travel to the north to play a Protestant game when you could play soccer or GAA at home, on the other hand people in the north would look at us and think who do this lot think they are coming up here playing our game having said that most clubs are very hospitable towards us and clubs from Belfast and county Down make a weekend out of there trip to play us. As far as Nationalists in the north are concerned the rural areas seem to bring in more non Protestant players than places like Belfast would probably because of where the clubs are based.
At club level i think Ulster rugby is as strong as ever as far as playing numbers are concerned.
Sorry for going on a bit there

Tim Robbins

wonton wrote: »

I took out a rugby book from the local library and haven't read all the chapters yet but a paragraph in the last chapter got me wondering about playing numbers.

The book was published in 2007 and in this chapter the author uses quotes from an interview with Willie John mcBride.


"Interest in rugby union is surging worldwide.....It's just that playing numbers are declining in most countries at junior level.The problem is as Mcbride points out, 'If the grassroots is dying,then it is only a question of time before the top level suffers too.I see my country Ireland struggling to get enough players in ten years time."


That quote seems crazy to me, even before the grand slam i was under the impression, rugby was growing in playing population even in non-traditional rugby playing regions.



according to the irb website-

ireland has 57,700 teen male players, 207 clubs and 21,939 senior male players

so what do you think, had these been increasing or is it a post 2007 world cup phenomenon?


other countries numbers for comparison(some quite surprising).

England have 1,218,138 teen players,1900 clubs, and 705,752 senior male players.


New Zealand have 40,257 teen male players,562 clubs and 27,203 senior male players.

Italy have 21,210 teen male player,744 clubs and 15881 senior male players

I get the suspicion it's easy to fudge those numbers. Does it include Tag Rugby players? Does it include the development schools some of whom only play one or two games a year?

Does it include lads playing schools for the Terenure 5ths that probably don't want to play?

Does it include Vets who only play in March? And of course since the game is open to women now (which is great) but they are adding on a few thousand from that as well.

Put it this way, how many new Rugby clubs are there in Dublin / Leinster in the last ten years?

1. Warriors
2. Tallaght
3. North Meath

If the game was this high, I'd expect more. If you look back in say at the 70's way more clubs sprouted up then, then have now.

I'd love to see more emphasis put on the youths. For example, say there was a prestigious cup on the lines of the Towns Cup and the Schools SCT.

This would encourage the clubs to put more emphasis into their youths and hang onto to players.

Sorry if my post is Leinster biased, I don't know much about what's going on everywhere else...

GSOIRL

Big Neilly I was gonna quote yours but then it would be getting a bit too long

You're right. The DCRP have done a great job but I'm not sure how much REAL support they get from Belfast.

The player numbers have increased amazingly. I believe that it won't be long before we have a Donegal player in the Ireland set up. Women's rugby in Ulster will one day be taken over by Donegal if they continue the way they are going.

I'm delighted that the schools are getting stronger. It's great to see that schools like St. Columba's and Carndonagh CS can now compete with the more established schools across the border.

The bad thing about schools rugby in Ulster if it hasn't changed since I was last involved is that it's a closed shop. The Grammer schools and High schools play in diferent cups. There is no chance for certain schools to win the schools cup no matter how good a team they have. Take Leinster as an example. They have 4 levels of cups but a team from the bottom cup(developament cup) has the chance to win the top cup by winning the other cups along the way. Now the chances of it happening are very very slim but at least they get the chance.

To finish. I'd delighted that rugby is growing in Donegal and long may it continue.

GSOIRL

Tim

I'm not sure if player numbers are increasing or decreasing but I'd guess increasing.

As for new clubs starting the problem is pitches plain and simple. Some long establised clubs have increased player numbers to such an extent that pitch space has become the biggest issue(well and finance) facing them.

Sticking to Leinster it's near impossible to start a club in Dublin as no options for pitches. I've heard of clubs trying to get access to Phoneix park and being denied.

More green areas are needed and that means goverment screwing over their building/developer buddys so that isn't going to happen.

Goverment policy seems to consist of let's get our children to watch rugby on telly but lets build apartments and shopping centres on all the green land so they can't play. Obesity who cares. That will affect the next few goverments not us. Sorry I can feel my blood pressue rising just starting this part.

JustinDee

Tag players are not included in the number of players. On the plus side however, clubs do get new players, members and referees from tag rugby. There are currently over 10,000 players playing the IRFU's tag programme alone.

Male and Female numbers in the IRB tallies are seperated.

Anyone playing schools rugby is included in the schools figure.
I'm not sure if Vets are included. I'd say they are.

The number of participants is a better indicator of rugby union's growth than the number of clubs.
At the moment, participation in mini rugby is up for example. Womens rugby too.
Getting there, I'd say especially with new structures for youth development, club development and colleges on the back of a higher-profile professional game.
Just takes a little time.

Tim Robbins

GSOIRL wrote: »

Tim

I'm not sure if player numbers are increasing or decreasing but I'd guess increasing.

As for new clubs starting the problem is pitches plain and simple. Some long establised clubs have increased player numbers to such an extent that pitch space has become the biggest issue(well and finance) facing them.

Sticking to Leinster it's near impossible to start a club in Dublin as no options for pitches. I've heard of clubs trying to get access to Phoneix park and being denied.

More green areas are needed and that means goverment screwing over their building/developer buddys so that isn't going to happen.

Goverment policy seems to consist of let's get our children to watch rugby on telly but lets build apartments and shopping centres on all the green land so they can't play. Obesity who cares. That will affect the next few goverments not us. Sorry I can feel my blood pressue rising just starting this part.

That's the best post I have read all year. You are 100% correct. And it's a pity other don't realise what you clearly can.

There is a huge problem with pitches that is being completely over-shadowed by the TV rights debate. I'm glad someone else realise this. And you know something, this is something that one could easily put a metric on. How many pitches are there? And is that increasing or decreasing?

Sometimes I think to myself I wouldn't mind setting up a Rugby club but the problem of course is you'd never get pitches. This is why areas are gaa areas or rugby areas. It's whoever got the land first when it was cheap.

sweetthing

More green areas are needed and that means goverment screwing over their building/developer buddys so that isn't going to happen

ya... I don't think anyone's too pally with the developers these days after they helped destroy our economy and run us into massive debt. In fact, the government buying land off developers for rugy pitches would be doing them a massive favour as most land in Ireland is essentially worthless at the moment

GSOIRL

sweetthing wrote: »

ya... I don't think anyone's too pally with the developers these days after they helped destroy our economy and run us into massive debt. In fact, the government buying land off developers for rugy pitches would be doing them a massive favour as most land in Ireland is essentially worthless at the moment

I think they're still pally as it seems that the government were in it up to their necks with the developers and the banks. Hence the lack of action against anyone. The government try to take down some developers and bankers and they'd basically be taking themselves down with them.

I was talking a bit in the past tense. Instead of the corruption that resulted in land being rezoned for development maybe they should of thought about the well being of the country instead of their pockets.

Tim Robbins

GSOIRL wrote: »

I think they're still pally as it seems that the government were in it up to their necks with the developers and the banks. Hence the lack of action against anyone. The government try to take down some developers and bankers and they'd basically be taking themselves down with them.

I was talking a bit in the past tense. Instead of the corruption that resulted in land being rezoned for development maybe they should of thought about the well being of the country instead of their pockets.

Going forward areas should be zoned for sporting usage. Fingal still has a lot of green areas and is the biggest growth area in Ireland for example.

There should be municipal sporting areas run by the councils that non profit sporting organisations can rent without problem.

Redsock

I think the Ulster Branch were too long in recognising the need to spread the game beyond the all too narrow confines of the traditional base of the game in Ulster and I for one am not convinced that all of the Branch are fully behind the idea.

The fundamental problem as I see it is a problem of ties, old school ones to be precise. The game in Ulster is run by them, and for them. As a working class kid, who went to one of the few secondary schools with a rugby pedigree, and who now plays for a club who has a long tradition of attracting waifs and strays and is sneered at for doing so by some of the more...illustrious clubs, I am dismayed by the Branch's efforts to make the game more accessible to all.

It is the perception of many that the game is elitist, and protestant and whilst there have been half hearted attempts to address the second perception absolutely nothing is done to adress the first. Until this happens Ulster Rugby will remain in a cul de sac.

anonymous_joe

Redsock wrote: »

I think the Ulster Branch were too long in recognising the need to spread the game beyond the all too narrow confines of the traditional base of the game in Ulster and I for one am not convinced that all of the Branch are fully behind the idea.

The fundamental problem as I see it is a problem of ties, old school ones to be precise. The game in Ulster is run by them, and for them. As a working class kid, who went to one of the few secondary schools with a rugby pedigree, and who now plays for a club who has a long tradition of attracting waifs and strays and is sneered at for doing so by some of the more...illustrious clubs, I am dismayed by the Branch's efforts to make the game more accessible to all.

It is the perception of many that the game is elitist, and protestant and whilst there have been half hearted attempts to address the second perception absolutely nothing is done to adress the first. Until this happens Ulster Rugby will remain in a cul de sac.

It pretty much is judging by anyone from Ulster I know who plays or likes rugby.

Redsock

In the team I play for at least half of the squad would be catholic. Moreover, a Friday night at Ravenhill also attracts a mixed crowd. The perception of exclussivity to which I refer is as mush social as religious or political.

The Ulster squad has been more religiously inclussive but in terms of social background exclussively Grammar school educated.

Tim Robbins

Redsock wrote: »

In the team I play for at least half of the squad would be catholic. Moreover, a Friday night at Ravenhill also attracts a mixed crowd. The perception of exclussivity to which I refer is as mush social as religious or political.

The Ulster squad has been more religiously inclussive but in terms of social background exclussively Grammar school educated.

A team should be set up for atheists :-)

Seriously, I think we can draw a parallel with the GAA here. In that organisation, there was division over whether Croker should be opened up or not. The conservatives didn't and the liberals did. In the end the liberals won.

Similarly in Rugby, the liberals / progressives want to Rugby to be played by all classless and the conservatives don't. It's a battle we will just have to keep fighting if that's what you believe in it.

This means if you are passionate about Rugby and spreading the gospel, you should make a pledge to yourself that sometime in your life you'll get involved with some coaching in a non-traditional rugby area.

GSOIRL

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Going forward areas should be zoned for sporting usage. Fingal still has a lot of green areas and is the biggest growth area in Ireland for example.

There should be municipal sporting areas run by the councils that non profit sporting organisations can rent without problem.

I totally agree. Systems like this work in other countries.

Redsock

Rugby is for all and I will continue to preach this message in the hope that it one days becomes so in Ulster. Sob, sob.

sweetthing

Instead of the corruption that resulted in land being rezoned for development maybe they should of thought about the well being of the country instead of their pockets.

couldn't agree with u here more man!