How much is that doggy ?

brianfrancis45

Having just spent months trying to get a 2.5 year old springer over his gun shyness without success I am about to give up . Its a pity as he is a very good game finder and mad for retrieving but I just can't get him over the gun shot.

When I shot over him for first time he dissappeared into the next parish and was waiting on the door step when I got home. As the wife and kids want the dog to stay , I then spent a lot of time very patiently trying all the tips I could find ( including advice from a professional gun dog trainer) for curing a gun nervous/ gun shy dog but to no avail. He did ''improve'' a bit in that he no longer runs for the car or home but what he now does is even more exasperating.... Now once I shoot he immediately heads for the cover a field or two in front or behind me , hunts away like mad but always makes sure he maintains a long distance from me and the gun, whereas before he would always hunt fairly close.

I really want to have a decent springer for the start of the season and preferably before, so that I have a bit if time to bond with the dog before the season starts. Looking at the ads in Done Deal and other places I see that prices for ''trained'' dogs seem to be very wide ranging. I've seen prices from Euro 400 up to even Euro 1500 ?

I am looking for advice from the doggy men on this forum and my question is how much do you think I should expect to pay for a very well trained springer say 1.5-2 years old , hard hunting, fully on the whistle, dropping to flush and shot , retrieving land + water . no vices etc...

I would have loved to buy a well bred pup and put the time into training him myself but now I'm back to work I just won't have the time and basically I'm looking for a young dog for rough shooting who is trained to a high standard and ready to go for the coming season. Certainly can't afford any more ''duds'' as once they come in the door , the wife and kids get attached and thats the end of that .... Therefore I'm wanting to buy a real good dog as once he's in he will be staying.....

Any advice greatly appreciated .

Thanks

EPointer=Birdss

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Having just spent months trying to get a 2.5 year old springer over his gun shyness without success I am about to give up . Its a pity as he is a very good game finder and mad for retrieving but I just can't get him over the gun shot.

When I shot over him for first time he dissappeared into the next parish and was waiting on the door step when I got home. As the wife and kids want the dog to stay , I then spent a lot of time very patiently trying all the tips I could find ( including advice from a professional gun dog trainer) for curing a gun nervous/ gun shy dog but to no avail. He did ''improve'' a bit in that he no longer runs for the car or home but what he now does is even more exasperating.... Now once I shoot he immediately heads for the cover a field or two in front or behind me , hunts away like mad but always makes sure he maintains a long distance from me and the gun, whereas before he would always hunt fairly close.

I really want to have a decent springer for the start of the season and preferably before, so that I have a bit if time to bond with the dog before the season starts. Looking at the ads in Done Deal and other places I see that prices for ''trained'' dogs seem to be very wide ranging. I've seen prices from Euro 400 up to even Euro 1500 ?

I am looking for advice from the doggy men on this forum and my question is how much do you think I should expect to pay for a very well trained springer say 1.5-2 years old , hard hunting, fully on the whistle, dropping to flush and shot , retrieving land + water . no vices etc...

I would have loved to buy a well bred pup and put the time into training him myself but now I'm back to work I just won't have the time and basically I'm looking for a young dog for rough shooting who is trained to a high standard and ready to go for the coming season. Certainly can't afford any more ''duds'' as once they come in the door , the wife and kids get attached and thats the end of that .... Therefore I'm wanting to buy a real good dog as once he's in he will be staying.....

Any advice greatly appreciated .

Thanks

I went & looked at 2 springers with a friend who was buying one before & both were 1500. Very well trained & impressive on the obedience in the field behind your mans house. Mate was all go to throw his money at him!

I then asked to be brought to some cover we passed on the way & either dog was stuck to our mans boots & wouldn't go near a bit of cover!

I said come on chap, back to the car I've seen enough!

What I would say is forget the cost & concentrate & what you need to look for so you don't get any duds. There are only so many dogs on Done deal etc & you have months before even September so i would concentrate on defining a good dog for you, going to look at as many as you can & once you find it then determine if the cost is worth it or not!
My money says once you find the right dog the money will be mere finer details!! Dog worth 1000 quid that gives 10 years service - very cheap companion at 100 quid p/a!

Ps always be weary of someone selling a highly trained young dogs, call me skeptical but would you part with it after 2 years training unless you were a professional trainer?
Exception to the rules are dogs that aren't trial standard & are been moved on as won't make the grade. Some nice dogs to be had in these circles...

brianfrancis45

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I went & looked at 2 springers with a friend who was buying one before & both were 1500. Very well trained & impressive on the obedience in the field behind your mans house. Mate was all go to throw his money at him!

I then asked to be brought to some cover we passed on the way & either dog was stuck to our mans boots & wouldn't go near a bit of cover!

I said come on chap, back to the car I've seen enough!

What I would say is forget the cost & concentrate & what you need to look for so you don't get any duds. There are only so many dogs on Done deal etc & you have months before even September so i would concentrate on defining a good dog for you, going to look at as many as you can & once you find it then determine if the cost is worth it or not!
My money says once you find the right dog the money will be mere finer details!! Dog worth 1000 quid that gives 10 years service - very cheap companion at 100 quid p/a!

Ps always be weary of someone selling a highly trained young dogs, call me skeptical but would you part with it after 2 years training unless you were a professional trainer?
Exception to the rules are dogs that aren't trial standard & are been moved on as won't make the grade. Some nice dogs to be had in these circles...

Thanks very much.
All sound advice and I will certainly bear your comments in mind.

I especially like your suggestion of maybe looking at dogs who were intended for trialing but didn't make the grade for some reason which would not be any diasadvantage for rough shooting.

I agree with you that it is probably best to be wary of young well trained dogs for sale. If I had just put 1 or 2 years into a springer and he was the real deal the last thing I would want is to sell him.

I'm thinking that I might go down the route of calling a couple of professional trainers, tell them what standard of dog I am looking for and asking them what they have and how much. This might save a lot of wasted time which was the case last week when
I went on a long drive to see a fairly pricey dog described as very well trained etc.. Indeed he was very responsive to voice and whistle commands etc..
but I didn't care much for what seemed to me to be a lack of real drive ....

doyle61

epointer hit the nail on the head as far as im cocerned. im always weary of "fully trained" dogs.
unless i knew the trainer well ild tend to stay clear and instead have a chat with some lads into trialing. them lads will be in the know of dogs that will make great rough shooters but just arent up to trialing standard.

bruskey

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Having just spent months trying to get a 2.5 year old springer over his gun shyness without success I am about to give up . Its a pity as he is a very good game finder and mad for retrieving but I just can't get him over the gun shot.

When I shot over him for first time he dissappeared into the next parish and was waiting on the door step when I got home. As the wife and kids want the dog to stay , I then spent a lot of time very patiently trying all the tips I could find ( including advice from a professional gun dog trainer) for curing a gun nervous/ gun shy dog but to no avail. He did ''improve'' a bit in that he no longer runs for the car or home but what he now does is even more exasperating.... Now once I shoot he immediately heads for the cover a field or two in front or behind me , hunts away like mad but always makes sure he maintains a long distance from me and the gun, whereas before he would always hunt fairly close.

I really want to have a decent springer for the start of the season and preferably before, so that I have a bit if time to bond with the dog before the season starts. Looking at the ads in Done Deal and other places I see that prices for ''trained'' dogs seem to be very wide ranging. I've seen prices from Euro 400 up to even Euro 1500 ?

I am looking for advice from the doggy men on this forum and my question is how much do you think I should expect to pay for a very well trained springer say 1.5-2 years old , hard hunting, fully on the whistle, dropping to flush and shot , retrieving land + water . no vices etc...

I would have loved to buy a well bred pup and put the time into training him myself but now I'm back to work I just won't have the time and basically I'm looking for a young dog for rough shooting who is trained to a high standard and ready to go for the coming season. Certainly can't afford any more ''duds'' as once they come in the door , the wife and kids get attached and thats the end of that .... Therefore I'm wanting to buy a real good dog as once he's in he will be staying.....

Any advice greatly appreciated .

Thanks

Hello brian. In my experience an ex trials dog will never make a good rough hunter. For some reason they dont seem to have any stamina and after an hour or two they fade away.You are better of with a dog that may not be fully obedient but has a brain of his own and the drive to stay with his own nose and not be waiting for you to send him on.If a dog stays within shot distance ,has a good nose and will retrieve for you then your hunting.Trial dogs seem to have been bred so fine that the hunting instinct seems to have been bred out of them. I have 4 springers ,one is from trialing stock, a savage for retrieving but a very lazy hunter.Your local gunclub members may have pups and at least you can see what their parents are really like on an actual hunt.Dont panic and choose wisely.I have the same problem in my house. Good luck.

brianfrancis45

bruskey wrote: »

Hello brian. In my experience an ex trials dog will never make a good rough hunter. For some reason they dont seem to have any stamina and after an hour or two they fade away.You are better of with a dog that may not be fully obedient but has a brain of his own and the drive to stay with his own nose and not be waiting for you to send him on.If a dog stays within shot distance ,has a good nose and will retrieve for you then your hunting.Trial dogs seem to have been bred so fine that the hunting instinct seems to have been bred out of them. I have 4 springers ,one is from trialing stock, a savage for retrieving but a very lazy hunter.Your local gunclub members may have pups and at least you can see what their parents are really like on an actual hunt.Dont panic and choose wisely.I have the same problem in my house. Good luck.

Thanks very much for your advice.

I must admit I never knew that ''ex trials dogs '' are unlikely to have strong drive and stamina. I thought I might be able to pick up a dog that was initially considered to be a decent trialing prospect and therefore was well trained and had good drive, nose etc.. but ultimately didn't make the grade because he didn't turn out to be as stylish as they had hoped, which is a ''fault'' that wouldn't bother me in the least for rough shooting.


As already mentioned I was left frustrated last week after a long trip to see a dog which on paper seemed to be a topper and indeed he was very well trained on the whistle for all commands but on the flip side he just seemed to be too ''sticky'' and didn't have the drive/fire in the belly that I like to see in a springer.

I suppose I'll have to accept that there might be more wasted trips and I'll just have to put in the leg work and see several dogs until I find one that fits what I want .

I know that training a well bred pup would be a good way to go but due to other
commitments over the next 6 months or so its doubtful that I would have sufficient time to put into the dog .

EPointer=Birdss

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Thanks very much for your advice.

I must admit I never knew that ''ex trials dogs '' are unlikely to have strong drive and stamina. I thought I might be able to pick up a dog that was initially considered to be a decent trialing prospect and therefore was well trained and had good drive, nose etc.. but ultimately didn't make the grade because he didn't turn out to be as stylish as they had hoped, which is a ''fault'' that wouldn't bother me in the least for rough shooting.


As already mentioned I was left frustrated last week after a long trip to see a dog which on paper seemed to be a topper and indeed he was very well trained on the whistle for all commands but on the flip side he just seemed to be too ''sticky'' and didn't have the drive/fire in the belly that I like to see in a springer.

I suppose I'll have to accept that there might be more wasted trips and I'll just have to put in the leg work and see several dogs until I find one that fits what I want .

I know that training a well bred pup would be a good way to go but due to other
commitments over the next 6 months or so its doubtful that I would have sufficient time to put into the dog .

Don't right off the trial dogs, just weigh this up with a bit of logic for a minute...
This frustrates me at times in all walks of life as generally logic prevails.

Your Options
Pup
Pros - Everything can be gained
Cons - dead duck & you've explained clearly why.
Option: NO

Trained RS (Rough shooting) dog
Pros - Hard working strain that will last a few hours, drive etc
Cons - could be too rough around the edges & need more refining
Option: MAYBE - Again your time is the issue

Failed Trialing Dog
Pros - refined, obedient, very little time impact
Cons - possible lack of drive
Option: DING DING DING - We have a winner JONNY!

Wildcard Option
Go & buy a pup out of good hard stock & send it to a trainer.
Pros - Could be your answer & the dog your after
Cons - Could be very expensive
Option: Depends on how deep your POCA's are

At end of day how I would weigh this up is.
You want a dog of a high standard, you can accept some "flaws" but at the same require some nice to haves.
You need to determine the balance here & what exactly is right for you.
A failed trialer that can only last an hour or so (very general statement BTW) or a RS stock that will go all day but you might be left frustrated by the rough edges & not have the time to work on them...
Either way realize what you want & what you can live with - then when you go to view the dog you have your checklists of things to look for can tailer the trial to suit...
Best of luck with it

brianfrancis45

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Don't right off the trial dogs, just weigh this up with a bit of logic for a minute...
This frustrates me at times in all walks of life as generally logic prevails.

Your Options
Pup
Pros - Everything can be gained
Cons - dead duck & you've explained clearly why.
Option: NO

Trained RS (Rough shooting) dog
Pros - Hard working strain that will last a few hours, drive etc
Cons - could be too rough around the edges & need more refining
Option: MAYBE - Again your time is the issue

Failed Trialing Dog
Pros - refined, obedient, very little time impact
Cons - possible lack of drive
Option: DING DING DING - We have a winner JONNY!

Wildcard Option
Go & buy a pup out of good hard stock & send it to a trainer.
Pros - Could be your answer & the dog your after
Cons - Could be very expensive
Option: Depends on how deep your POCA's are

At end of day how I would weigh this up is.
You want a dog of a high standard, you can accept some "flaws" but at the same require some nice to haves.
You need to determine the balance here & what exactly is right for you.
A failed trialer that can only last an hour or so (very general statement BTW) or a RS stock that will go all day but you might be left frustrated by the rough edges & not have the time to work on them...
Either way realize what you want & what you can live with - then when you go to view the dog you have your checklists of things to look for can tailer the trial to suit...
Best of luck with it

EPointer , I really do appreciate you going to the trouble of mapping out the options so clearly and it has definitely got me putting a bit more thought into this.


A pup that I train myself is definitely out for the reasons explained as is putting a pup with a professional trainer which is just too expensive.

So I'm down to a trained rough shooting dog with strong drive etc.. but lacking a bit of obedience/refinement or a failed trial dog who is fully trained but lacking a bit of drive.
If shove came to push right now I'm thinking I'd go for the failed trial dog provided that it was only a ''bit'' of drive that it was lacking ( last thing I'd want is a ''circus performer'' but with the drive of a lap dog !) . I guess that subconciously I'm a bit biased towards the more refined dog anyway having just spent months with a mental springer who nearly drove me as nuts as he is !.

Usually I'm only out shooting for a couple of hours at a time. The permissions I have are mainly heavy / broken cover , heavy ditches and bog land, which I know can be hard going but hopefully a young dog with reasonable stamina would deal with that. There is a healthy population of rabbits where I shoot and I'm thinking that might be another reason why the more refined/easier to control failed trial dog may be more suited than an ultra keen rough shooting dog who is not as responsive to the whistle/commands and may find the temptation of rabbits jumping up in front of him every 25 yards or so
leads to him losing the plot a bit.... It is important for me to have a dog that is very consistent when it comes to dropping to flush/shot as in the permissions I shoot there is a lot of rough land/broken cover - nightmare scenario would be a new dog that is not steady and ends up taking a few pellets in the tail and becomes gunshy !
He'd still get a welcome on the mat from the wife + kids and I'd end up with two nervous wrecks of dogs for my trouble. Doesn't bear thinking about !

EPointer=Birdss

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

EPointer , I really do appreciate you going to the trouble of mapping out the options so clearly and it has definitely got me putting a bit more thought into this.


A pup that I train myself is definitely out for the reasons explained as is putting a pup with a professional trainer which is just too expensive.

So I'm down to a trained rough shooting dog with strong drive etc.. but lacking a bit of obedience/refinement or a failed trial dog who is fully trained but lacking a bit of drive.
If shove came to push right now I'm thinking I'd go for the failed trial dog provided that it was only a ''bit'' of drive that it was lacking ( last thing I'd want is a ''circus performer'' but with the drive of a lap dog !) . I guess that subconciously I'm a bit biased towards the more refined dog anyway having just spent months with a mental springer who nearly drove me as nuts as he is !.

Usually I'm only out shooting for a couple of hours at a time. The permissions I have are mainly heavy / broken cover , heavy ditches and bog land, which I know can be hard going but hopefully a young dog with reasonable stamina would deal with that. There is a healthy population of rabbits where I shoot and I'm thinking that might be another reason why the more refined/easier to control failed trial dog may be more suited than an ultra keen rough shooting dog who is not as responsive to the whistle/commands and may find the temptation of rabbits jumping up in front of him every 25 yards or so
leads to him losing the plot a bit.... It is important for me to have a dog that is very consistent when it comes to dropping to flush/shot as in the permissions I shoot there is a lot of rough land/broken cover - nightmare scenario would be a new dog that is not steady and ends up taking a few pellets in the tail and becomes gunshy !
He'd still get a welcome on the mat from the wife + kids and I'd end up with two nervous wrecks of dogs for my trouble. Doesn't bear thinking about !

I reckon by bouncing it off a few folks it just helps you draw the conclusions you would end up with eventually.
Next problem is where to go looking...
You will find a suitable companion I'm sure. Let us know how you get on.

irish setter

thats a very tall order you've set yourself. i know very little about springers but from what i've been told even some of the best field trial dogs would not make a good rough shooting dog as they are trialled in very open ground packed full of game so 1 they don't do cover and 2 they don't need much of a nose. basically what i'm saying be sure of what your buying from field trial stock and if your going to shell out money be sure you get a decent trail, at least a full day if possible

foxer 204

this might not help much but i have a pointer whose not really fond of the shotgun so i didn"t push it and started with a .22 while throwing a dummy /then i started taking the .22 out when hunting him and he did not even blink when a pheasant rose and i fired
have not tried shotgun yet but i am hopeful

also i heard, if all else fails, 50 foot of rope on the dog and fire then bring the dog into you pet him build his confidence give him a treat and repeat until your happy his cured

on saying that alot of people say if a dog is gunshy theres nothing you can do

ive never used a dog that cost more than a hundred euro and they have all been very good

brianfrancis45

irish setter wrote: »

thats a very tall order you've set yourself. i know very little about springers but from what i've been told even some of the best field trial dogs would not make a good rough shooting dog as they are trialled in very open ground packed full of game so 1 they don't do cover and 2 they don't need much of a nose. basically what i'm saying be sure of what your buying from field trial stock and if your going to shell out money be sure you get a decent trail, at least a full day if possible

Thanks for your reply . I fully respect what you say and obviously there are varying opinions on this. To be honest I just don't have sufficient experience to give a strong and informed opinion on it . I would mention though that at the end of last season I was introduced to a professional gun dog trainer who also happens to be an IKC panel judge for springer field trials. He had a young ( I guess about 15- max 18 months old) field trial bred springer with him and we went for bit of a walk in the country . I understand the dog was a genuine field trial prospect and he had high hopes for him, although as I am
inexperienced I would not be a good judge of that. I must say that personally I was very impressed with that dog . He hunted with what seemed to me to be great pace and style , quartered very well , always stayed in range , quickly found birds that we saw running in off the field ahead of us , searched every bit of cover that we came across and was very repsonsive to whistle/commands. From my viewpoint (which is not such an inexperienced one) he seemed to be an excellent dog and it was a pleasure to watch him work . I wouldn't mind having him now !

I was speaking to that trainer again today and asked him if he still had that dog and if he would be willing to sell him. I was sort of hoping that maybe the dog didn't work out in the end for trialing due to some minor fault that really woudln't be an issue when rough shooting. Unfortunately the dog had already been sold but I was a little surprised when the trainer said to me that he would not have recommeded that dog to me anyway as he felt as a novice handler I would have had difficulty in keeping on top of and controlling that dog who really needed an experienced handler. He said that
it would not be wise to pair up a novice handler with a dog like that as it would be the equivalent of suddenly putting a driver who was used to driving a Morris Minor behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car. Basically he said that he always tries to match the dog with the handler as it is important to find a good balance between both for the partnership to work well. For example, apparently some softer natured dogs can perform well with a soft handler but not with a very firm handler. Other more outgoing/pacey dogs ,despite being very well trained, need a firm/experienced handler as the dog would be likely to take liberties with a softer/novice handler. I guess we learn something every day .....

He said he does have a young dog in mind that he feels may be more suited to a novice handler like myself and he will arrange for me to see the dog in a few weeks time after he has put a bit more work into him.

EPointer=Birdss

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply . I fully respect what you say and obviously there are varying opinions on this. To be honest I just don't have sufficient experience to give a strong and informed opinion on it . I would mention though that at the end of last season I was introduced to a professional gun dog trainer who also happens to be an IKC panel judge for springer field trials. He had a young ( I guess about 15- max 18 months old) field trial bred springer with him and we went for bit of a walk in the country . I understand the dog was a genuine field trial prospect and he had high hopes for him, although as I am
inexperienced I would not be a good judge of that. I must say that personally I was very impressed with that dog . He hunted with what seemed to me to be great pace and style , quartered very well , always stayed in range , quickly found birds that we saw running in off the field ahead of us , searched every bit of cover that we came across and was very repsonsive to whistle/commands. From my viewpoint (which is not such an inexperienced one) he seemed to be an excellent dog and it was a pleasure to watch him work . I wouldn't mind having him now !

I was speaking to that trainer again today and asked him if he still had that dog and if he would be willing to sell him. I was sort of hoping that maybe the dog didn't work out in the end for trialing due to some minor fault that really woudln't be an issue when rough shooting. Unfortunately the dog had already been sold but I was a little surprised when the trainer said to me that he would not have recommeded that dog to me anyway as he felt as a novice handler I would have had difficulty in keeping on top of and controlling that dog who really needed an experienced handler. He said that
it would not be wise to pair up a novice handler with a dog like that as it would be the equivalent of suddenly putting a driver who was used to driving a Morris Minor behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car. Basically he said that he always tries to match the dog with the handler as it is important to find a good balance between both for the partnership to work well. For example, apparently some softer natured dogs can perform well with a soft handler but not with a very firm handler. Other more outgoing/pacey dogs ,despite being very well trained, need a firm/experienced handler as the dog would be likely to take liberties with a softer/novice handler. I guess we learn something every day .....

He said he does have a young dog in mind that he feels may be more suited to a novice handler like myself and he will arrange for me to see the dog in a few weeks time after he has put a bit more work into him.

That's sound advice as the dog must fit the handler but how else do you become a more experienced handler than to learn & try it.
It's no rocket science. there are only so many commands the dog will no.
After that you will learn his personality, that's the joy of a pup as you see it from the very off.
Either way pick the dog that suits you & not just the one your man might be flogging off! Remember you don't have the time to work on weaknesses so you want the finished article that you can keep topped up once or twice a week!
All i'd say is read & learn & absorb everything you can & have confidence in your abilities. At the end of the day this is a hobby & you will make mistakes but if you don't how do you learn from them!
Once you get the dog you will see how you make time!:p

Video in order now when you get this fella!!!