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Operation Green

  • 30-05-2010 9:04am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭


    I'd love to read more about the German planne invasion of Ireland known as Operation Green.

    Does anyone know if a copy exists online for it?

    The wikipedia entry says theres a copy in the Cathal Brugha Barracks, but it might not be viewable.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    I'd love to read more about the German planne invasion of Ireland known as Operation Green.

    Does anyone know if a copy exists online for it?

    The wikipedia entry says theres a copy in the Cathal Brugha Barracks, but it might not be viewable.

    there is only one way to find out. Cmdt Young is or was the DF press officer. Try the library in the curragh. if you are a serious a history buff it should not be a problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    this might interest you OP ;)

    from todays Irish Times
    SEVENTY YEARS ago this summer, Adolf Hitler’s general staff drew up detailed plans to invade Ireland. In June of 1940, Germany’s 1st Panzer Division had just driven the British Expeditionary Force into the sea at Dunkirk.

    The Nazis, intoxicated by their military victory in France, considered themselves unstoppable and were determined to press their advance into Britain and Ireland. Germany’s invasion plans for Britain were codenamed Operation Sealion. Their invasion plans for Ireland were codenamed Unternehmen Grün or Operation Green.

    Like Operation Sealion, Operation Green was never executed. The Nazis failed to achieve air superiority over the English Channel that summer. By the autumn of 1940 the Battle of Britain had been won by the Royal Air Force (RAF) and Hitler postponed his British and Irish invasion.

    Some military historians also believe that the plans for Operation Green, drawn up in minute detail, may have been a feint to divert British resources away from Germany’s invasion of southern England. However, had the RAF been overwhelmed that summer by the German air force, the Luftwaffe, Operation Green gives a sobering insight into what fate neutral Ireland would have suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

    Operation Green was conceived under the scrutiny of Field Marshal Fedor von Bock. Bock had a fearsome reputation as an aggressive campaign officer – well versed in the concept of Blitzkrieg. Bock had been commander of Germany’s army group north during the invasion of Poland in 1939 and army group B during the invasion of France in May of 1940. Nicknamed Der Sterber, or Death Wish, by his fellow officers, von Bock was ultimately given responsibility for Germany’s planned assault on Moscow (Operation Typhoon) during Germany’s subsequent invasion of Russia.

    In the summer of 1940 however – before Hitler had turned his attentions towards Russia – von Bock was preoccupied with invasion plans for neutral Ireland and assigned responsibility for it to the German 4th and 7th army corps, army group B under the command of General Leonhard Kaupisch.

    If these German army units in particular had reached Ireland’s shores in 1940, the consequences for Ireland would have been tragic and would have profoundly altered the course of history for the Republic and its citizens.

    The German 4th army corps in particular had a brutal reputation in battle and inflicted many civilian casualties as they secured the Polish corridor to Warsaw during the invasion of Poland in 1939. Later in 1941, the 4th army corps, equipped with its own motorised infantry and Panzer tank divisions, would play a crucial role during Operation Barbarossa, Hitler’s invasion of Russia. The 4th army corps, earmarked for service in Ireland in the summer of 1940, conducted brutal operations the following summer as they took Minsk and Smolensk on their advance to Moscow in June and July 1941.

    Had the 4th and 7th been deployed to Ireland in 1940, their tactics would have been brutal and their advance rapid – up to 100km per day.

    The Nazis allocated 50,000 German troops for the invasion of Ireland. An initial force of about 4,000 crack troops, including engineers, motorised infantry, commando and panzer units, was to depart France from the Breton ports of L’orient, Saint-Nazaire and Nantes in the initial phase of the invasion.

    According to Operation Green, their destination was Ireland’s southeast coast where beach-heads were to be established between Dungarvan and Wexford town. Once they had control and airstrips had been established (negligible armed resistance was expected) waves of Dornier and Stuka aircraft would have started bombing military and communications targets throughout the Irish Free State, as it then was, and Northern Ireland.

    In the second phase of the invasion (to start within 24 hours of the first landings), ground troops of the 4th and 7th army corps would have begun probing attacks, initially on the Irish Army based in Cork and Clonmel, followed by a thrust through Laois-Offaly towards the Army’s Curragh Camp base in Co Kildare.

    Their rate of advance would have been rapid, with some units reaching the outskirts of Dublin within 48 hours of landing in the southeast.

    The capital city was identified by the Nazis as one of six regional administrative centres for the British Isles had occupation taken place. Dublin’s Gauleiter was to have sweeping executive powers and would have had instructions to dismantle, and if necessary, liquidate, any of Ireland’s remaining indigenous political apparatus, her intellectual leadership and any non-Aryan social institutions such as the trade union movement or the GAA, for example. Irish Jews would have been murdered en masse.

    Hitler’s generals were aware that their operations in Ireland would have to be self-sustaining given that their troops would be operating far from the continental mainland in Europe’s most western region.

    Adm Raeder described the German force in Ireland as one which of necessity “would be left to its own devices” in order to execute its mission of conquest. Therefore, Operation Green envisaged that German troops here would administer martial law and curfews, commandeering shelter, food, fuel and water from the civilian population. The plans even contained an annex with the names and addresses of all garage and petrol station owners throughout Munster and the midlands.

    This policy of predation on the civilian population would have inevitably led the Germans into direct conflict with civilians as they confiscated livestock, food, fuel and used forced labour to support their advance northwards. As was the case in continental Europe, Irish civilians would have borne the brunt of the casualties in an invasion, either through the vagaries of war, punitive actions by the Germans or through the almost inevitable counter-attack by Britain.

    In military terms, the Irish Army would have been wholly ill-equipped to challenge a German invasion in the summer of 1940. In 1939, there were approximately 7,600 regulars in the Army with a further 11,000 volunteers and reserves of the Local Defence Force, forerunner of the FCA. By May 1940, this number had dropped by 6,000 due to financial constraints. The Irish government’s recruitment campaign only began to bear fruit by the autumn of 1940.

    Had the Germans come ashore in the summer of 1940, they would have been met by an Army with no experience of combined arms combat and capable only of company- sized manoeuvres, involving a maximum of about 100 men. In addition, the Irish Army was poorly equipped, possessing only a dozen or so serviceable armoured cars and tanks. In terms of small arms, the Army did have plenty of Lee Enfield rifles – of first World War vintage – but had only 82 machine guns in total for the defence of the entire State.

    Many Irish units also moved about on bicycles – referred to at the time as Peddling (or Piddling) Panzers. Had they been engaged by the Wehrmacht, the Irish would have been slaughtered.

    Ironically, the Germans were not the only foreign power making plans for the invasion of Ireland in the summer of 1940. In June of that year, Gen Montgomery drew up plans for the seizure of Cork and Cobh along with the remainder of the Treaty ports.

    When Britain’s prime minister, Winston Churchill, became aware of Operation Green, the British military set out detailed plans to counter-attack the Germans from Northern Ireland. Codenamed Plan W, it envisaged Irish Army units regrouping in the Border areas of Cavan-Monaghan and being reinforced by British troops moving south from Northern Ireland. In this scenario, the Irish and British armies would have fought alongside one another to repel the German invasion.

    Had this happened, it is hard to see that widespread casualties, military and civilian, would not have ensued.

    Of course, neither Operation Green nor Plan W were implemented. Ireland survived the war almost entirely untouched by it, thanks largely to its neutral status being respected by the combatants and the crucial role played by the RAF in the summer of 1940.

    Were it not for the sacrifices of the 544 British, New Zealand, Czech, South African, Canadian, Polish, Australian, French and some Irish who fought and died with them during the Battle of Britain, who knows what flag would now fly over Leinster House.

    Tom Clonan is Irish Times Security Analyst.

    He lectures in the School of Media, DIT.

    Article here

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0628/1224273464332.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    marcsignal wrote: »
    this might interest you OP ;)

    from todays Irish Times



    Article here

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0628/1224273464332.html


    the article is a load of nonsense and belongs to the 'what if..' school of thought, that you would expect to find in a tabloid. I would have expected more from the the IT


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Tom Clonan did that amusingly naff what if ROI invaded NI in 1969 farce on RTE. 'nuff said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    the article is a load of nonsense and belongs to the 'what if..' school of thought, that you would expect to find in a tabloid. I would have expected more from the the IT

    I couldn't help thinking that entire article belonged in the star or even indymedia. Not the Irish times. Right down to the picture - pure sensationalist drivel.

    I think the Irish Times are trying to counter myers in the independent who covers WW1/WWII issues in a semi-meaningful way from time to time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    The silly season's obviously started early this year, if this rubbish is anything to go by.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭Canis_Lupus


    Why is it rubbish?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Why is it rubbish?

    Hmmm . . . . where should I start? What about the crassly stupid photomontage with which it's illustrated? Or the sub-heading which seems to suggest the greatest threat from a German invasion was to the trade unions and GAA? The breathless tone with which we're told "The plans even contained an annex with the names and addresses of all garage and petrol station owners throughout Munster and the midlands", as though there were Nazi spies criss-crossing the country gathering this information, when in fact it would have freely available from published sources like commercial directories (not to mention that there would have been far, far fewer garages in the country in 1940)? The disparaging description of the use by the Irish Army of bicycles, when every other army of the era, large or small and including the Germans, also made extensive use of them (and incidentally demonstrating that neither the author nor his sub-editors appears to know the difference between the verbs "to pedal" and "to peddle")?

    In summary, it's a rehashing of well known historical facts in a highly sensational style to reach the unsurprising conclusion to anyone with any imagination that a German invasion of Ireland would have been A Very Bad Thing. If you want a less sensational and more thorough examination of the period from an Irish point of view you can't do better than Robert Fisk's excellent In Time of War: Ireland, Ulster and the Price of Neutrality, 1939-45. One of Fisk's major conclusions is that the Irish Army ultimately did the job of deterrence it was intended for, i.e., both the Germans and the British gave serious consideration to an invasion, but concluded the potential advantages to either of them didn't outweigh the personnel and resources they would have had to commit to the project.

    I've no idea what the point of publishing this tripe in a daily paper seventy years after the event is, unless it's just to fill space on a slow news day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    By the way, the article's assertion that the Irish Army held only 82 machine guns is contradicted by this inventory which lists holdings of 478 Vickers heavy machine guns and 803 Lewis light machine guns as well as a number of Hotchkiss and Bren guns in March 1940. It separately lists the Air Corps as having 83 machine guns for aerial use - I suspect their inventory has been mixed up with that of the Army as a whole.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭Avgas


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    By the way, the article's assertion that the Irish Army held only 82 machine guns is contradicted by this inventory which lists holdings of 478 Vickers heavy machine guns and 803 Lewis light machine guns as well as a number of Hotchkiss and Bren guns in March 1940. It separately lists the Air Corps as having 83 machine guns for aerial use - I suspect their inventory has been mixed up with that of the Army as a whole.

    Interesting inventory Gizmo, you don't happen to know what became of the 13.2mm Boys AT rifles.."0.55" Boyes AT Rifle"...by 1941 we were supposed to have 141 of them...think I have seen a photo of them once...in Irish Army service.....but were they ditched by the 1950s? Does anyone know?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Avgas wrote: »
    Interesting inventory Gizmo, you don't happen to know what became of the 13.2mm Boys AT rifles.."0.55" Boyes AT Rifle"...by 1941 we were supposed to have 141 of them...think I have seen a photo of them once...in Irish Army service.....but were they ditched by the 1950s? Does anyone know?

    No idea, TBH I never heard of this weapon before. Rooting around with Google, I gather it was considered obsolete by Allied forces by 1943 and was replaced in British Army service, for example, by the PIAT.

    Also found this bizarre animated training film by of all people, Walt Disney! It's on Youtube in several parts:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭Avgas


    Good lord.....where did you find that video Gizmo.....what were they on? Certainly cannot have been legal.

    I think some 13.2mm AT rifles became collectors item in..... yes.......America.....after WW2.......AT rifles were a kinda rage in the early 1930s but tank armour just got...bigger and so they were more or less useless......the Finns had a 20mm one, and the Swiss tried flogging 20, 23 and 25mm variants I believe....Japs also had a 20mm model of a total clunker...German had a handier 7.92mm ...as I think did the Poles....and of course Russians had 14.5mm......in some ways these weapons were the predecessors of the heavy sniper weapons in 0.5, etc.

    Just you know ....for a moment there......I had brief visions of our guys in the Leb in the late 1970s unpacking a 13.2mm Boys and warning off a SLA/Major Hadad M48 crew coming up some boreen.........."we mean it this time...the 13.2mm is deployed."

    But of course that never happened...in fairness they were much better armed to face down the NASTIES...[please tell me that never happened really?]

    Reckoned they were scrapped for junk 1946 so?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Avgas wrote: »
    Good lord.....where did you find that video Gizmo.....what were they on? Certainly cannot have been legal.

    I think some 13.2mm AT rifles became collectors item in..... yes.......America.....after WW2.......AT rifles were a kinda rage in the early 1930s but tank armour just got...bigger and so they were more or less useless......the Finns had a 20mm one, and the Swiss tried flogging 20, 23 and 25mm variants I believe....Japs also had a 20mm model of a total clunker...German had a handier 7.92mm ...as I think did the Poles....and of course Russians had 14.5mm......in some ways these weapons were the predecessors of the heavy sniper weapons in 0.5, etc.

    The poles had one early in the 1930s - if they had had it in larger numbers and properly distributed the second world war could have turned out a bit differently. Here is an interesting articlet on the Polish one.

    Here are a couple of pictures from an Eastern Front photo album of the Wehrmacht field testing their own a Panzerbüchse pzb 39.

    Sniper01.jpg

    FR_PL_RU37.jpg

    107037.jpg

    I can't find any reference to it now but I seem to recall the IRA used an anti-tank rifle against a royal navy ship at one point during the 1950's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭private2bcadet


    Morlar wrote: »
    The poles had one early in the 1930s - if they had had it in larger numbers and properly distributed the second world war could have turned out a bit differently. Here is an interesting articlet on the Polish one.

    Here are a couple of pictures from an Eastern Front photo album of the Wehrmacht field testing their own a Panzerbüchse pzb 39.

    Sniper01.jpg

    FR_PL_RU37.jpg

    107037.jpg

    I can't find any reference to it now but I seem to recall the IRA used an anti-tank rifle against a royal navy ship at one point during the 1950's.

    think it was a russian one they had.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭private2bcadet


    tom clonan who partially created that rediculous documentary was, and still is, an imbecile.

    he was kicked out of the DF for making up statistics about women being bullied in the work place. he claimed he took 60 female irish soldiers, and had 59 of them admit to being sexually harassed and bullied, including attempted rape. when his findings were questioned by the DF, he was asked to put forward his findings and back them up.. he couldnt. hes an absolute nut case, just a total maverick whos determined to make the defence forces look bad because they got rid of him because of his idiocy and lunacy.

    i wouldnt judge the situation surrounding opperation armageddon on anything in that documentary


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Clonan may not be much of a historian, but his research on sexual harassment and bullying in the PDF was spot on:

    When a woman soldier anonymously informed a Government-ordered inquiry into harassment and bullying in the Army that she had been raped by another soldier but was too afraid to report the incident it confirmed academic research carried out years before by a serving member of the Defence Forces but which had been buried by the military authorities.

    Two other women soldiers and a male colleague also told an inquiry team they had been the subject of attempted rape.

    That inquiry of the External Advisory Committee on the Defence Forces was set up by the former Defence Minister Michael Smith, after media reports were published about an earlier survey on the experiences of women in the military conducted by then Army captain, Dr Tom Clonan for a PhD at Dublin City University.

    The Government report found that 30 per cent of women soldiers, who make up only 4 per cent of the Defence Forces, had experienced sexual harassment and that victims of harassment and bullying felt they could not achieve remedy through the Defence Forces complaints system.

    For Dr Clonan, who by then had left the army and become a full-time academic, the findings of the Government ordered report were a vindication of his original research, but he now reveals that he got no thanks for his efforts from many of his former colleagues in the Irish Army and was ostracised and shunned by some.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭private2bcadet


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Clonan may not be much of a historian, but his research on sexual harassment and bullying in the PDF was spot on:

    When a woman soldier anonymously informed a Government-ordered inquiry into harassment and bullying in the Army that she had been raped by another soldier but was too afraid to report the incident it confirmed academic research carried out years before by a serving member of the Defence Forces but which had been buried by the military authorities.

    Two other women soldiers and a male colleague also told an inquiry team they had been the subject of attempted rape.

    That inquiry of the External Advisory Committee on the Defence Forces was set up by the former Defence Minister Michael Smith, after media reports were published about an earlier survey on the experiences of women in the military conducted by then Army captain, Dr Tom Clonan for a PhD at Dublin City University.

    The Government report found that 30 per cent of women soldiers, who make up only 4 per cent of the Defence Forces, had experienced sexual harassment and that victims of harassment and bullying felt they could not achieve remedy through the Defence Forces complaints system.

    For Dr Clonan, who by then had left the army and become a full-time academic, the findings of the Government ordered report were a vindication of his original research, but he now reveals that he got no thanks for his efforts from many of his former colleagues in the Irish Army and was ostracised and shunned by some.

    wow, thanks for posting that, anything i had read about the issue just dismissed him as being a bit of a maverick! thanks for informing me on that!


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