Breeding Jumpers

Nulty

Found an interesting article - Bob McCreery on breeding jumpers

'I didn't intend to breed a jumps sire from the first crop of Sadler's Wells'

WHAT is a jumps sire? When we put that seemingly simple question to various experts in the field of breeding jumpers, "a few answered with odd answers or not at all" in the words of one of my colleagues.

The obvious answer would be 'a sire of jumps winners'. But until such time as a stallion has proved his mettle, some questions arise. The timeworn and logical criteria for selecting stallions from which to breed Flat winners - performance, pedigree, conformation con·for·ma·tion
n.
One of the spatial arrangements of atoms in a molecule that can come about through free rotation of the atoms about a single chemical bond. - are of limited use.

Conformation is easy enough to assess, and although fashion may be moving towards a slimmed-down model of the old rangy rangy

a term describing conformation; generally a light frame with long body and legs. , robust type, you still want four clean strong limbs, an athletic frame and some size.

But moving on to the other two criteria: first, what is the desirable pedigree for a jumps sire? Most are Flat-bred and raced horses, for the reason that you can't breed from geldings, which is what nearly all good male jumpers are.

That leads to the equally vexing question of how to assess the performance of a future jumps sire, in the context of what type of athletes are hoped for. Since virtually none of the candidates has competed over obstacles, the closest approximation is to judge the horse based on his Flat form. However, if you're thinking that means breeding from 2m Cup winners, think again. The current trend is apparently to look for Group 1 performers at up to 1m2f, with some now seeking out milers.

The answers to our question included: "A tough racehorse racehorse

refers usually to thoroughbred but may also include standardbred, trotter. who can attract big books of mares because you can't beat numbers", "His offspring need to be with good trainers and the good ones need to stay alive and healthy", and "A good stallion is a lucky one". All good sense but not very specific. You'd imagine Flat stallion shareholders wishing the same for their investments.

Bob McCreery is one of the most successful producers of jumps sires. From his Stowell Hill Stud, he bred Old Vic and Anshan. Both figure prominently in the 2006 standings of jump stallions by progeny earnings, although Anshan died in a paddock accident at Glenview Stud in Ireland at the end of 2005. Old Vic is at the top, a position around which he has hovered over the past three seasons.

McCreery should know a thing or two about what it takes to breed a jumps sire. However, he claims it was an accident both times around. "They happened by chance," he says.

A former champion amateur rider over jumps, McCreery never set out to breed jumps sires. His initial investment was modest: an outlay of 1,200gns in 1966 bought him his foundation mare, Camenae.

In foal being with young; pregnant; - said of a mare or she ass.

See also: Foal to the Diadem Stakes The Diadem Stakes is a Group 2 flat horse race in the United Kingdom for three-year-old and above thoroughbreds. It is run over a distance of 6 furlongs (1,207 metres) at Ascot Racecourse in late September. runner-up March Past when McCreery bought her, Camenae produced a filly named Menthe Frapee, who went to Peru as a yearling and became "a very, very good mare".

Two years after Menthe Frapee was conceived, Camenae made her first visit to Derring-Do, the QEII Stakes winner who would be her mate for four years. The first mating resulted in High Top, who beat Roberto to win the 2,000 Guineas in 1972.

Later came Cockade, the winner of nothing more than a 1m maiden at Salisbury, who joined McCreery's breeding band and, at the age of 13, gave birth to her fifth foal foal

a junior horse from birth to one year. May be filly foal, colt foal.

foal ataxia
see enzootic equine incoordination. . Bred from the first crop of Sadler's Wells, in whom McCreery then had a share, Cockade's bay colt grew to be big and rangy. Sheikh sheikh
or shaykh

Among Arabic-speaking tribes, especially Bedouin, the male head of the family, as well as of each successively larger social unit making up the tribal structure. The sheikh is generally assisted by an informal tribal council of male elders. Mohammed thought enough to pay 230,000gns for the colt, soon to be named Old Vic, at the Highflyer Yearling Sales of 1987.

By all accounts he didn't impress anyone straight off the bat, but as a three-year-old Old Vic set a course record when winning the Chester Vase The Chester Vase is a Group 3 flat horse race in the United Kingdom for three-year-old thoroughbred colts and geldings run over a distance of 1 mile 4 furlongs and 66 yards (2,474 metres) at Chester Racecourse in May.

The race was first run in 1907. , then swept to a seven-length victory in the Prix du Jockey-Club and a four-length win in the Irish Derby.

He won all five of his starts for Henry Cecil at three, but was thwarted by hard ground thereafter. He ran twice at four and was placed both times, including a narrow second to his stablemate Noun 1. stablemate - a horse stabled with another or one of several horses owned by the same person
stable companion

Equus caballus, horse - solid-hoofed herbivorous quadruped domesticated since prehistoric times Belmez in the King George, and was retired to Sheikh Mohammed's Dalham Hall Stud for a fee of pounds 25,000.

Old Vic did not work out as a Flat sire, but he has done just fine since he started siring jumpers, especially chasers. Most notable of these is Gold Cup winner Kicking King, bred by Sunnyhill Stud in Ireland, which is where Old Vic now stands.

McCreery did not plan to breed a jumps sire - "I don't think I'd have intended to breed one from Sadler's Wells's first crop!" - but neither is he surprised at Old Vic's success.

"One of the things we all need to go by is guts," he says. "I wouldn't buy a horse who I didn't think had courage. I always thought Sadler's Wells was the perfect commercial stallion.

"I don't think there's any way to know if a horse is going to be a good sire. Old Vic wasn't that beautiful, but he had four good clean limbs.

McCreery also bred Anshan, by Persian Bold from the Manado mare Lady Zi. Blessed with "the most magnificent physique" in McCreery's words, Anshan was bought by Sheikh Mohammed at Goffs for Ir100,000gns as a yearling. He soon marked himself a horse of promise, finishing third in the Dewhurst and the Cartier Million.

The next year he was third in the 2,000 Guineas and the Dante, and won the Group 3 Supreme Stakes.

Although he never won beyond 7f, he may have stayed further, as do his offspring, including the accomplished hurdling mare Asian Maze.

Asked if he set out to breed Derby-type horses, McCreery's surprisingly definitive answer is "no".

He adds: "I think so many breeding theories are nonsense. You're lucky if you get a winner, for goodness sake."

He does hold true to one theory: that staying racemares make the best broodmares. He says: "I think that the mare, more than on the Flat, is very important. I say, you want to start breeding jumpers, get a couple of good mares. Then the stallions will follow - they won't matter as much."


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Horse+Racing%3A+%27I+didn%27t+intend+to+breed+a+jumps+sire+from+the+first+...-a0160196339

Nulty

Just to follow on from the breeding aspect...

There are a few outstanding horses with obvious jumping pedigree.

Weapons Amnesty = Presenting — Victoria Theatre (Old Vic)
Phidippidies = Presenting — Sarah Blue (Bob Back)
For Bill = Presenting — Bobalena (Bob Back)

Theres more, I'll post them when I find them

finbarrk

Take a trip to the Derby sale in June 24 -25th and you will see loads of jumping breeding.

http://www.tattersalls.ie/news/2010/05/25/derby-sale-2010-preview/

Nulty

finbarrk wrote: »

Take a trip to the Derby sale in June 24 -25th and you will see loads of jumping breeding.

http://www.tattersalls.ie/news/2010/05/25/derby-sale-2010-preview/

What else happens at these sales? Having no experience of the industry would I just be going to look at them walk around the ring? Not saying that woould be bad..

convert

Nulty wrote: »

What else happens at these sales? Having no experience of the industry would I just be going to look at them walk around the ring? Not saying that woould be bad..

You could just do that if you wanted to, or you could go out to the yard where there's an area for horses to be trotted for potential buyers so they can get a look at the their action as well as getting a better look at the horse. You'd also have a chance to chat with the vendor, if you so wished.

Nulty

Bollix! I forgot about the Derby Sale...I couldn't have made the trip anyway but I might have squeezed a few hours out if I'd organised myself...

Cantoris

The question at the top of the article is "what is a jumps sire" and I think it's pretty easy to say that a jumps sire wasn't good enough to be a flat sire. The likes of Old Vice and Presenting started off trying to be flat sires but quickly moved into NH. Now, the likes of Westerner and Vinnie Roe are not aimed at the flat market but more the jumps market. They are trying to make Yeats into a flat stallion but they will more than likely fail and he will become a NH stallion. Kalanisi is the same, started off as a flat stallion and still covers a few flat mares but has been pushed into NH since the likes of Katchit have proven so successful over jumps.

I was at the Derby sale last week. The sales are well worth going to see and more importantly, when a horse sells well and you look at its page and wonder why, go out and have a look at him afterwards. Then look at a horse with a decent page that makes €10k and do the same. You will start noticing the difference. It starts with the horse and a nice one will get €25k and then the page pushes the price up further.

sting60

Cantoris wrote: »

The question at the top of the article is "what is a jumps sire" and I think it's pretty easy to say that a jumps sire wasn't good enough to be a flat sire. The likes of Old Vice and Presenting started off trying to be flat sires but quickly moved into NH. Now, the likes of Westerner and Vinnie Roe are not aimed at the flat market but more the jumps market. They are trying to make Yeats into a flat stallion but they will more than likely fail and he will become a NH stallion. Kalanisi is the same, started off as a flat stallion and still covers a few flat mares but has been pushed into NH since the likes of Katchit have proven so successful over jumps.

I was at the Derby sale last week. The sales are well worth going to see and more importantly, when a horse sells well and you look at its page and wonder why, go out and have a look at him afterwards. Then look at a horse with a decent page that makes €10k and do the same. You will start noticing the difference. It starts with the horse and a nice one will get €25k and then the page pushes the price up further.

Top group winners on the flat over 1.4 miles and further will generally throw nh.Sea The Stars???

Cantoris

sting60 wrote: »

Top group winners on the flat over 1.4 miles and further will generally throw nh.Sea The Stars???

I think it's more more of a question of why would a breeder bring their one mile winning flat mare to a long distance flat stallion. Would that be a commercial move? Would a buyer look at the foal/yearling and say "too slow". This would impact on the price. So the breeder is more likely to go for something that has won over shorter. Sea The Stars would certainly fit into this. Remember, there were doubts he would stay a mile and a half and I think a mile and a quarter was his trip. I was at Longchamp for his Arc win. Super super performance but was he stopping in the last 100 yards?? His stride was certainly shortening. Plus, he's got a savage book of mares so if he cannot make it, nothing will.

Arctic89

Nulty wrote: »

Just to follow on from the breeding aspect...

There are a few outstanding horses with obvious jumping pedigree.

Weapons Amnesty = Presenting — Victoria Theatre (Old Vic)
Phidippidies = Presenting — Sarah Blue (Bob Back)
For Bill = Presenting — Bobalena (Bob Back)

Theres more, I'll post them when I find them

Pretty sure Denman and Dunguib were sired by Presenting aswell!

Ok Dunguib is a poor jumper but probably one of NH's better known names.

Nulty

Arctic89 wrote: »

Pretty sure Denman and Dunguib were sired by Presenting aswell!

Ok Dunguib is a poor jumper but probably one of NH's better known names.

Yeah I was looking at less exposed horses, Denman is 10 and Dunguib is too well known after his bumper.

Cantoris

I thinkk 8 of the top 20 lots at the Tatts Derby sale were by Presenting. A nice one is not affordable for most people.