helicopter armour

Lab_Mouse

Always loved watching helicopters fly,but their weak point always seemed the same.How durable are their rotor blades?say from assault rifles?

xflyer

Actually the rotor blades on some helicopters particularly attack helicopters and those optimised for military use are expected to survive hits from small arms and sometimes up to 30mm cannon. Obviously there are limits. But the composite materials used to make modern rotor blades make them very tough.

This wouldn't be true of the AW139s the Air Corps has because they are essentially civilian helicopters and are not designed for combat. Which is one of the reasons they will never be deployed anywhere dangerous.

Lab_Mouse

can the rotor blades take a sustained attack,or can they just deflect a few hits?

xflyer

As I said to my little brother when he used to ask questions like that, 'Well it depends'.
Clearly there's a limit but if you read anything about the Vietnam war and the Hueys. They could take a lot of damage and keep flying and they wouldn't be designed to the same standard as applies nowdays. On the other hand we have the famous 'Blackhawk down' incident. One hit in the right place.............

The reality is probably that no helicopter would survive a sustained attack from cannon fire but might get away with a couple of magazines from an AK. It depends!

Merch

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

can the rotor blades take a sustained attack,or can they just deflect a few hits?

Depending on the quantity, mass and velocity of what was fired at it

xflyer wrote: »

As I said to my little brother when he used to ask questions like that, 'Well it depends'.
Clearly there's a limit but if you read anything about the Vietnam war and the Hueys. They could take a lot of damage and keep flying and they wouldn't be designed to the same standard as applies nowdays. On the other hand we have the famous 'Blackhawk down' incident. One hit in the right place.............

The reality is probably that no helicopter would survive a sustained attack from cannon fire but might get away with a couple of magazines from an AK. It depends!

I dont think I recal seeing that from the film? or that any kind of artistic license wasn't used anyway. One hit from an rpg wont make a bit of difference where it hits, unless you mean the right place being the pilot?? You could of course take out one hydraulic line. Generally even combat aircraft aren't designed to sustain damage, I think the emphasis is on pilot/crew survivability, where the aircraft has multiple redundant systems, which adds weight, not something favoured in aircraft, in particular helicopters as it reduces performance ie load carrying ability/range.

Most military helicopters are utility types and are essentially very similar to their civilian counterparts.

Locust

In the 1980's Afghan fighters used to lure Russian Helicopters into valleys and a mass of afghans would camoflague themselves along either side of the valley and on command would all let rip at the helicopter with AKs aiming for the cockpit. This resulted in the Russians reinforcing the cockpits of Mi24's with thicker glass as they lost a good few helis this way.

No helicopter is invicible to small arms fire, and obviously sustained fire - There is a saying that 'a lucky round goes a long way...'

That said the Apache - the ultimate warbird, is supposed to withstand 12.7mm jacketed rounds 'all over' as the body and even rotors are supposed to be made with a titanium/kevlar compound. I doubt a lucky small arms round could take down an apache!

helimachoptor

I read a book there a year or so a go, a Dhusku (sp) heavy machine gun hit a part of the Apache and ended up draining the oil from it, the Apache stayed in theatre for another 30 mins and then flew back to base another 30 mins or so away.

The crew were sure they'd die on the way home and indeed were ordered to, but they knew the guys on the ground would be overrun if they left.

Locust

I recall watching a documentary on the Falklands and an SAS trooper was talking about how they inserted onto the Islands and were doing recon.

On thier first night on the Island a Argentine Helicopter flew past where they were lying and it was 'very close' and they could see it was loaded full with Argentine soldiers...

The trooper said they (SAS) had AR's and GPMG's and could 'have easily taken it out' as it flew past but it would have comprimised there presence on the islands and let it on past.
Just another thought, a team of well trained men, 4 or so, could easily destroy a military helicopter in flight at good range.

I'd say depending on what speed the bird is flying at the soldier would have to adjust his aim a good bit in front of the heli for the rounds to hit if it was going at speed.

Merch

helimachoptor wrote: »

I read a book there a year or so a go, a Dhusku (sp) heavy machine gun hit a part of the Apache and ended up draining the oil from it, the Apache stayed in theatre for another 30 mins and then flew back to base another 30 mins or so away.

The crew were sure they'd die on the way home and indeed were ordered to, but they knew the guys on the ground would be overrun if they left.

Well, I cant say I've read that but aircraft in those situations are vulnerable, likely helicopters more so ie heavy machine guns and anti aircraft guns. There was one particular incident where the US army in the Gulf war 2 (invasion stage) believed in the invincibility of their apaches, from what i read they weren't that successful, it was a propaganda coup for the iraqis at the time but they had to stop operations with the apaches for a while as so many had been badly damaged including one shot down.

Locust wrote: »

I recall watching a documentary on the Falklands and an SAS trooper was talking about how they inserted onto the Islands and were doing recon.

On thier first night on the Island a Argentine Helicopter flew past where they were lying and it was 'very close' and they could see it was loaded full with Argentine soldiers...

The trooper said they (SAS) had AR's and GPMG's and could 'have easily taken it out' as it flew past but it would have comprimised there presence on the islands and let it on past.
Just another thought, a team of well trained men, 4 or so, could easily destroy a military helicopter in flight at good range.

I'd say depending on what speed the bird is flying at the soldier would have to adjust his aim a good bit in front of the heli for the rounds to hit if it was going at speed.

Its difficult to see anything on the ground when moving/at even low altitude, if its camoflaged, Id say forget about it.
You say they could have shot it down as it passed, I'm sure they could, as has been proven by relatively untrained people firing rockets and machine guns, anyone really could take down a helicopter, if it was low enough you could probably do it with a brick if you could hit it.

At a distance, unless they were well trained on the use of something guided or some specific AA gun, then I'd say chances are slim, be very hit and miss, but likely more miss unless you were lucky, it really depends on their altitude, speed, the angle you are firing at, what your elevation is compared to them, wind and probably humidity and temp too, so at a good range, I'd say no not easily even if you were well trained, as for aiming ahead, well I'd say thats a given, but as helicopters dont have to fly in a straight line and can alter their speed.

As the OP said they like seeing helicopters flying, I really am wondering what the curiosity is to see how durable they are to this kind of attack?

concussion

Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan illustrates both how vulnerable helicopters are to small arms (up to 12.7mm) fire when used in the CAS role and how effective the armour and redundant systems of the Apache are. There is a book of the same name about the operation which is well worth a read; it's quite impressive to see how they can soak up the damage.

I believe the vital systems (less rotors) in the AH-64 are designed to withstand a hit from weapons up to 23 mm but if a weapon of that calibre is in use there will probably be a lot more than one round in the air - the best option, assuming the gun is detected is to keep moving fast and neutralise it from outside its range using missiles. On the point of RPG's, one hit could cause catastropic damage but, as it lacks a proximity fuse, this is difficult to achieve. The Mujahideen countered this to a certain extent by volley firing RPG's when helicopters were 1000 m away, the range at which the warhead self destructed.

Delancey

My understanding is that in Vietnam the Huey was horribly vulnerable to small arms fire and could be taken out by 1 guy with an AK - Huey crews had the highest casualty rate . The Blackhawk incorporates many lessons learned there and is far better protected with things like Kevlar matting on the floor , twin engines , etc..
That said helicopters are still relatively vulnerable to ground fire