how fast should i do repeats at?

psychozeb

i'm training for berlin and at the moment i'm following a running worlds 10k 8 week schedule.i just don't know what i should be doing my 400m,800m and 1mile repeats at in training,will be following the advanced marathon 12 week 55-70mile a week schedule from then until the race.i'll be hoping to break 3:15 in berlin but my speed isn't great hence the 10k schedule.
my race times are as follows:

5 mile 35:00
10 mile 74:20
1/2 marathon 1:38:42
marathon 3:20:20

any advice appreciated.

ecoli

psychozeb wrote: »

i'm training for berlin and at the moment i'm following a running worlds 10k 8 week schedule.i just don't know what i should be doing my 400m,800m and 1mile repeats at in training,will be following the advanced marathon 12 week 55-70mile a week schedule from then until the race.i'll be hoping to break 3:15 in berlin but my speed isn't great hence the 10k schedule.
my race times are as follows:

5 mile 35:00
10 mile 74:20
1/2 marathon 1:38:42
marathon 3:20:20

any advice appreciated.

If you are looking to develop speed through 10k training here are general guidelines to what sort of paces you can look to achieve

400m 6 seconds faster than goal race pace
800m 10 seconds faster than goal race pace
1 mile 18 seconds faster than goal race pace

These are general guidelines for speed development for specific 10k work however each person can react differently so these are to be used as a guideline in order to attempt through trial and error to see what works for you

Krusty_Clown

ecoli wrote: »

400m 6 seconds faster than goal race pace
800m 10 seconds faster than goal race pace
1 mile 18 seconds faster than goal race pace

Really? So is Hal Higdon's 400m intervals at Mile pace pace considered bad advice? I'm currently running 400s at around 35 seconds faster than goal race pace.

BeepBeep67

I think ecoli is referring to per interval - so 6secs faster per 400m is 24 /25 secs faster than goal pace.
I do my 400's at mile pace which is about 12 secs faster per 400m than 10k pace.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Really? So is Hal Higdon's 400m intervals at Mile pace pace considered bad advice? I'm currently running 400s at around 35 seconds faster than goal race pace.

Dont mean to stray away from the original query but what youre suggesting doing 400s at sounds about right Krusty. I saw in your hill repeat thread though that youre taking an equivalent rest in between. So 75-80secs for a 400 then 75-80secs recovery, is that right? If it is then I think youre taking too much recovery time. Of course everybody has different views on this and I could be opening a can of worms here, but from experience and from reading JD, he thinks its all about slashing the recovery time. We'd do that 400 session in the club aswell but the most time anybody is allowed between 400s is 60secs. A lot of the time we do them on 2 minute cycles, so if you do a 400 in 75 secs you get 45 secs recovery. Id have to look that part up in JD again to be 100% sure but I think the reasoning behind the short break is to keep you working in your VO2 max zone for the entire session.

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

Dont mean to stray away from the original query but what youre suggesting doing 400s at sounds about right Krusty. I saw in your hill repeat thread though that youre taking an equivalent rest in between. So 75-80secs for a 400 then 75-80secs recovery, is that right? If it is then I think youre taking too much recovery time. Of course everybody has different views on this and I could be opening a can of worms here, but from experience and from reading JD, he thinks its all about slashing the recovery time. We'd do that 400 session in the club aswell but the most time anybody is allowed between 400s is 60secs. A lot of the time we do them on 2 minute cycles, so if you do a 400 in 75 secs you get 45 secs recovery. Id have to look that part up in JD again to be 100% sure but I think the reasoning behind the short break is to keep you working in your VO2 max zone for the entire session.

I agree that the short recoveries are important and but with short recoveries like this you are changing the dynamics of the session. The 400m reps you are refering to are not so much speed development but rather endurance work as you have highlighted with your talk of VO2 max in the session. with speed development i would be inclined to start at a ration of 1:1 between recovery and rep time

I think ecoli is referring to per interval - so 6secs faster per 400m is 24 /25 secs faster than goal pace.
I do my 400's at mile pace which is about 12 secs faster per 400m than 10k pace.

Yes sorry i should have elobaorated more on this 6 sec faster would be per 400m interval so say your pace for 10k is 6.30 miles each rep would be @ 6.06 pace (91-92 sec 400m s)

Really? So is Hal Higdon's 400m intervals at Mile pace pace considered bad advice? I'm currently running 400s at around 35 seconds faster than goal race pace.

Its not bad advice but this would be more 1500m specific training

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

Dont mean to stray away from the original query but what youre suggesting doing 400s at sounds about right Krusty. I saw in your hill repeat thread though that youre taking an equivalent rest in between. So 75-80secs for a 400 then 75-80secs recovery, is that right? If it is then I think youre taking too much recovery time. Of course everybody has different views on this and I could be opening a can of worms here, but from experience and from reading JD, he thinks its all about slashing the recovery time. We'd do that 400 session in the club aswell but the most time anybody is allowed between 400s is 60secs. A lot of the time we do them on 2 minute cycles, so if you do a 400 in 75 secs you get 45 secs recovery. Id have to look that part up in JD again to be 100% sure but I think the reasoning behind the short break is to keep you working in your VO2 max zone for the entire session.

You're probably right Tunguska. This is my first fast speedwork since the last 10k program back in November. I was planning on reducing the recovery period, but every week I've been adding an interval, and am really only getting comfortable doing them at this stage. I'm not too worried about V02Max, as I'll be starting a marathon program in June, which has lots of Vo2max sessions, so this is more about leg speed/turnover to get used to the longer marathon 5k pace intervals (800 - 1,600m). I'd imagine the 1km hills would have a positive impact on Vo2 as well, though the recoveries (jogging back down the hill) are quite long also. Sorry Psychozeb. Thread sabotage.

psychozeb

also for my recoveries should i be jogging or walking between them.

psychozeb

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You're probably right Tunguska. This is my first fast speedwork since the last 10k program back in November. I was planning on reducing the recovery period, but every week I've been adding an interval, and am really only getting comfortable doing them at this stage. I'm not too worried about V02Max, as I'll be starting a marathon program in June, which has lots of Vo2max sessions, so this is more about leg speed/turnover to get used to the longer marathon 5k pace intervals (800 - 1,600m). I'd imagine the 1km hills would have a positive impact on Vo2 as well, though the recoveries (jogging back down the hill) are quite long also. Sorry Psychozeb. Thread sabotage.

no problem krusty.the more opinions the merrier.

asimonov

Psychozeb, According to the book your race times give you a daniels vdot of about 47-48. The training paces he gives for those are:

R pace - 90" per 400
This is not for vo2max but for economy and form. The aim is to do these at quality, each one being done the same as the one before - so take whatever recovery is required to be able to do them right.

I pace - 96" per 400 / 4:03 per 1,000 / 4:39 per mile
The I pace is your vo2max pace and there is no need to go faster than this - even though it will feel light enough for 400's - Recovery should be equal or less than the time spent, like tunguska says - maybe start one every 2:10 or something.

psychozeb

asimonov wrote: »

Psychozeb, According to the book your race times give you a daniels vdot of about 47-48. The training paces he gives for those are:

R pace - 90" per 400
This is not for vo2max but for economy and form. The aim is to do these at quality, each one being done the same as the one before - so take whatever recovery is required to be able to do them right.

I pace - 96" per 400 / 4:03 per 1,000 / 4:39 per mile
The I pace is your vo2max pace and there is no need to go faster than this - even though it will feel light enough for 400's - Recovery should be equal or less than the time spent, like tunguska says - maybe start one every 2:10 or something.

my 400's were around 93-94" and fairly consistent alright but wasn't sure if i was taking too much of a break between them,was walking 400 between each repeat.