Is Lucifer the Devil/ Satan?

Vinny-Chase

This has me scratching my noggin' the last while.

Was Lucifer cast out of Heaven for his pride to reign over hell? Does that make him The Devil/ Satan?

Also, why is he referred to as The Day Star?

Zombrex

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

This has me scratching my noggin' the last while.

Was Lucifer cast out of Heaven for his pride to reign over hell? Does that make him The Devil/ Satan?

Also, why is referred to as The Day Star?

Depends on who you ask. Lucifer is found in Jewish writing referring to an archangel cast out of heaven for trying to be better than God. Early Christian writers equated Lucifer with Satan but some disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Vinny-Chase

Yeah finding a lot of contradiction in what I've been reading.

Some saying that the morning star is actually Jesus.

LordSutch

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

Is Lucifer the Devil/Satan?

Also, why is he referred to as The Day Star?

Satan is half man half dog, > Explanation; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gxyae4_nng&feature=youtube_gdata

Vinny-Chase

Found this piece an interesting take:

However, according to this Muslim reading of his case, it was rather because he loved and adored God so deeply and intensely that he could not bring himself to bow before anything else, and because he refused to bow down to something inferior to him (since he was made of fire, and man from clay). And it was for that that he was flung into Hell, condemned to exist there forever, apart from his love.

I don't think I'd bow to man either

faceman

The Devil has many names in the bible depending on which testament and which "Book of" you are reading. It also depends on which faith too. Lucifer is the more common name in the New Testament.

He's sometimes referred to the morning or day star. there is one reference to Christ, AFAIK, calling himself the morning star in the bible but i could be mistaken.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven for his envy of humans and God's view of humanity. But essentially Lucifer want to displace God.

What you dont often hear about (and certainly you wouldnt have learnt it in school!) was the Lucifer was essentially given free reign over the earth and in some Christian writings, the earth is often referred to his domain.

On a more theological level, the only reason that Lucifer is given power of the earth, and if you so believe it, influence over humanity is because God allows it. Even the stigma of possession is deemed to be allowed by God (although Lucifer selects those who are closer to God to tempt) and release from possession can only occur ultimately when God permits it. (coupled with prayer etc)

The confusion over the devil's name probably came from him being the main and first angel booted from heaven. There were numerous other angels cast out too (thus now referred to as demons) and they were cast down to hell to live in torment in the absence of God's love. Similar to the structure and ranks of angels in heaven, there is also believed to be a structure, rank and hierarchy to demons in hell. St. Thomas Aquinas, AFAIK, was the only holy person to write in detail about this. So its possible, that early names for Lucifer, E.G. Satan, Beelzebub etc, were the names of other fallen angels.

Demon's hatred of humanity is pure and in stark contrast of the unconditional love God has for man. In essence, demons are said to have unconditional hatred for humans.

I'll be quiet now in case you think Im a big weirdo for knowing far too much about this topic...

strobe

If you know more, don't stop Faceman, it's a facinating topic.

There is a lot of presumptions made in relation to Lucifer. First of all that he is Satan - the adversary, when that is never specifically stated. It's possible Satan and Lucifer are two different beings. There is also the possibility that Lucifer was a Babylonian King and not the one archangel granted the knowlege of right or wrong. Satan & Beelzebub etc possibly being just other demons but not Lucifer himself like Faceman alluded to. Another one is that Lucifer (or Satan) were the serpent or were speaking through the serpent in the garden of Eden. Lucifer isn't punished in Genesis, the serpent is, by him and his kind having to crawl on their bellies and eat dust, which is presumably why serpents do that to this day (the second part there presumably repealed at some point for good behaviour).

There is also no consensus on the motives for Lucifer's refusal to bow to Adam amongst the various texts that mention him. Some claim he was too proud, some claim he was envious of Adam, some claim he loved God too much to worship anyone but him and he felt that is what he was being asked to do by bowing down to Adam. He's a bit of a mystery, the oul Lucifer.

The reason he is refered to as the day star or morning star, is because it is how the Latin word Lucifer is translated into English when it's direct translation would be light-bringer or light-bearer and is a term for describing the planet Venus. The term also appears in reference to the Babylonian King mentioned above.

Darlughda

I'm really confused about this one too. I have heard stuff saying that Lucifer was the planet venus or saturn, sorry can't remember which.

And then the devil is everything that embodies that older pagan religions before christian colonisation.

Never posted in the christianity forum before, feel kinda odd doing so, as I am not remotely a christian, tbh, yet am curious about various ideas and interpretations of what Lucifer/the devil/satan is?

Rev Hellfire

If I recall I remember reading somewhere that the satan is mentioned in the book of job(?) as agent of god challenged with tempting man.
So what's the difference between these accusers and the modern Christian belief of the Satan as an independent force.

santing

The name "Lucifer" only appears once in the Bible, and only in certain translations (e.g. KJV and Darby translation). I selected a few translations for you:
Isa 14:12
(BBE) How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!
(CEV) You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.
(CLV) How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!"
(Darby) How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!
(ESV) "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
(KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(NET) Look how you have fallen from the sky,
O shining one, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations!

faceman

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If I recall I remember reading somewhere that the satan is mentioned in the book of job(?) as agent of god challenged with tempting man.
So what's the difference between these accusers and the modern Christian belief of the Satan as an independent force.

The book of Job is an odd one. The devil reckons that Job is only loving of God because he has had good fortune in life. Here's where it gets interesting. God gives the devil permission to play havoc with Job in an effort to prove the devil wrong. It alludes to the notion the God consults with Satan (The devil is referred to as Satan in the Book of Job) as to what he thinks of Job. This suggests that Satan had not been cast out of heaven at this stage and may in fact have taken on some kind of advisory role? anyway, hard to tell but odd none the less. It important to note that Job's friends and family believe that the afflictions the devil reigns down on Job was brought on by Job's sins which obviously wasnt the case.

Either way, God wins, Job is awesome. Job, while pished off that he is suffering so much (his family is wiped out) at no stage curses God.

As a foot note, Job turns up in other religion's too in a similar role.

johanz

No matter who he is, Lucifer is badass.
Even his name alone is awesome

Soul Winner

faceman wrote: »

It alludes to the notion the God consults with Satan (The devil is referred to as Satan in the Book of Job) as to what he thinks of Job. This suggests that Satan had not been cast out of heaven at this stage and may in fact have taken on some kind of advisory role?

It might also be argued that after Satan was cast out that he was restricted to the earth. After God created Adam in what some believe was a campaign to repopulated the void left in heaven by the rebellion of Satan and his angels yet in his (Adam's) case he would have to show absolute and utter trust in what God says over everything else that contradicted that. He fell at the first and the the dominion and position that God had given him defaulted to the tempter as way of legal entry back into the councils of the heavenlies. This is speculative of course but it makes sense of a lot of stuff i.e. how Satan had access to these councils in the book of Job and in Zechariah's vision when he was there to accuse Joshua the High Priest.

The book of Revelation tells us that one day Michael the Arch Angel will be let loose to cast Satan back out of the heavenlies for good and again restrict his movements again to just the earth alone. The heavens rejoice when he is cast out but they also exclaim a woe to the inhabitants of the earth because he is restricted thereto and knows that his time is short and it is during this short time span that he unleashes all his fury upon the inhabitants of the earth in particular the Jewish people and the remnant of the 'House' of Israel i.e. the so called Lost Tribes which from God's point of view were never lost.

As for Lucifer I have no reason to believe that Satan and he are not one and the same being.

eth0_

johanz wrote: »

No matter who he is, Lucifer is badass.
Even his name alone is awesome

Are you a teenager wannabe goth who has watched "Twilight" too much? GROW UP.

UB Dude

Perhaps the most detailed analysis on the 'rebellion in heaven' can be found in a book called the Urantia Book. A huge tome, specifically section 53. The term lucifer is a name for a high born angel. As an angel he belongs to a specific group known as the Morning Stars, that is the literal meaning of Hillel ben Shakar, the hebrew term for son of the Morning Star. The term 'Stars' is used to denote all angels, hence when we read in the book of Revelation about how the dragon 'drew down a third of the stars of heaven', what is meant here is that a third of the 'lower orders of stars' were beguiled by the sophistries of the 'Prince of Darkness'.
Satan, another hebrew term, meaning the Adversary is, depending on what you read, Lucifers captain. However, he is one of the order of celestial beings charged with overseeing the welfare of the planet. We should remember that a vast host of celestial beings are charged with overseeing the welfare of the world; Guardian Angels, ANgels of the Nations, the Churches, the Most Highs who rule in the Kingdoms of Men {political overseers} etc. Anyway, when Lucifer instigated the rebellion in 'Heaven' Satan immediately jumped on board and dragged our world into 'darkness', corrupting the divine administration that had been charged with our welfare. Consequently, we lost contact with the celestial administration and with it lost consciousness of who we are, why we are here, and where we are going afterward. This was to be remedied by Adam and Eve, but they dropped the ball - through the machivellians wiles of Satan, which necessitated the involvement of some higher order beings - of which Jesus was the primary ass-kicker.
Lucifer, started the rebellion and 'drew down a 3rd of the stars'.
Satan jumped on the bandwagon - one of the 'wicked tenants' that usurped the vineyard [our planet].
Abbadon - a wicked demon, presently known as a midwayer.
There's a whole bunch of others. But who cares?
One reads in Pauls letters about 'the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places'. After the bestowal mission of Jesus, practically all of the celstial beings that had gone astray were rounded up and imprisoned and are awaiting judgement by the Ancient of Days. However, Satan - aka Caligastia, was left 'unmolested' and free to pursue his 'nefarious schemes', essentially as the 'thresher to separate the wheat from the chaff', to separate those who love, hear and live truth and those that don't love it, won't hear it, and refuse to live it.

Namaste
Barry

johanz

eth0_ wrote: »

Are you a teenager wannabe goth who has watched "Twilight" too much? GROW UP.

Twilight? Do you accuse me of watching that pathetic excuse for a movie?
Oh god no.

And if reading bible is growing up, I don't want to.

eth0_

I'm atheist but pseudo-devil worshipping is pathetic, childish and embarrassing.

johanz

eth0_ wrote: »

I'm atheist but pseudo-devil worshipping is pathetic, childish and embarrassing.

I'm atheist too, and i do not praise devil since he doesn't exist.
Lucifer is a badass name anyway.

Vinny-Chase

eth0_ wrote: »

I'm atheist but pseudo-devil worshipping is pathetic, childish and embarrassing.

+1

eth0_

johanz wrote: »

I'm atheist too, and i do not praise devil since he doesn't exist.
Lucifer is a badass name anyway.

"No matter who he is, Lucifer is badass.
Even his name alone is awesome"

johanz

eth0_ wrote: »

"No matter who he is, Lucifer is badass.
Even his name alone is awesome"

But lucifer is not devil.
At least that's what I got from reading this thread.

StealthRolex

Some reputable sources for those who read...

Satan, Devil Lucifer

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)

Be aware

johanz

What a shame, why do bad guys always get the cool names?