Something I have been pondering recently..

There is a large section of society in Ireland which is anti-social - i.e. dole-lifers, violent criminals (both petty and significant), hard drugs users etc etc who will basically never add anything to society besides a few kids that the state will have to pay to raise. There has been a few high profile cases recently such as the 2 lads who murdered the 2 polish guys - my understanding is that there were cousins/parents/"mates"...basically a lot of people involved in this event during the night, none of whom seemed to want to do anything except escalate the situation against the two polish guys. I mean, what did they actually want to achieve besides random violence?
Now to hear of their lifestyle, in which they took drugs and drank all day, were stealing etc; sadly this could be said of a lot of young people in Ireland.

Another example is the case of the young lad who died "in the care of" the HSE. From what I can gather he was also a drug user, despite attempts by HSE staff to help him he continued. They thought he might have a mental disorder, but it was found out that if he just stopped taking the drugs he was taking that he would be fine. He ended up dead and it is considered the fault of the HSE. At what point does the HSE stop being responsible for someone who obviously doesn't want help?


My question, which I have been pondering, is at what point do the people involved actually become liable for their own behaviour. I would always be one to give people second chances (for small crimes/drug use etc) but you hear case after case of people with 70+ convictions walking the streets, commiting crime after crime after crime (and that's just the crimes they're caught doing) and we are told that these people are like this as a result of their upbringing - not enough facilities etc.
Now these lads all have had similar chances to me. They were all offered schooling for free, benefits to keep them housed and fed, yet they choose this life of crime and anti-social behaviour.

Possibly they will continue to behave in this fashion due to the leniancy they know they will face in the courts, or perhaps they just don't give a damn. One thing is for sure, they will never contribute to society in any meaningful way - yet we pay their way through life - which leads to situations where WE are put at risk by these people and their future criminal offspring.

So what I want to discuss is what you think should or could be done with people like this. Tougher sentences? Lowering the standard of living in our prisons to make them places where you simply do not want to go?
Should we have a three-chance rule? 3 crimes and you get a 5 year minimum?
We seem to have just accepted that it's OUR fault that these people behave the way they do, so I would like to see some ideas on what we can do as a society to stamp out this behaviour.

ei.sdraob

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

My question, which I have been pondering, is at what point do the people involved actually become liable for their own behaviour choices.

I dont know ive been wondering the same with this whole NAMA for muppets crap

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Berthram

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

There is a large section of society in Ireland which is anti-social - i.e. dole-lifers, violent criminals (both petty and significant), hard drugs users etc etc who will basically never add anything to society besides a few kids that the state will have to pay to raise. .........

I dont think you are been very fair putting the long term unemployed in the same category as criminals. There are many who are long term unemployed because they left school early or suffer from mild disabilities and/or live in remote areas and cant find sutible employment. These people often contribute much to society. They are often involved in voluntary organisations, GAA etc.
Perhaps the unemployed done a service to the country during the celtic tiger era by helping to keep the economy from overheating. The unemployed were not the ones who took out loans for second houses etc.

So please, give us a break and dont put us in the same category as criminals.

That made me laugh Berthram, thanks.

Good points donegalfella. Individual responsibility is almost unheard of on this isle in almost every aspect of life.

I guess the next question is are these people "like this" because they are poor, or are they poor because there are "like this"...


I have yet to really hear of any political party with the balls to tackle the easy life prison system in Ireland; or the absolutely pathetic sentences that people receive......

Berthram

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I have yet to really hear of any political party with the balls to tackle the easy life prison system in Ireland; or the absolutely pathetic sentences that people receive......

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita
http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/statistics_cri_prison_table1.html
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/jesse.shapiro/research/prison041607_web.pdf
Ireland seems to have a prison population of less than 100/100000, not shown in the first link

Have a rethink. I cant see any evidence in the statistics that having a tough prison regime reduces crime but perhaps I have missed something.

Perhaps you can point me to evidence to support your opinion.

So you think it's a good thing that we have so few people in prison, yet young people with 70+ convictions walking the streets?

Do you think it's a good thing that we spend the guts of 100k a year housing each prisoner?

Berthram

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So you think it's a good thing that we have so few people in prison, yet young people with 70+ convictions walking the streets?

Do you think it's a good thing that we spend the guts of 100k a year housing each prisoner?

I would be careful about looking at the USA (e.g. 3 strikes etc) as a model system, as their prison population is very high and we dont want to go down that road.

With new technology and a little imagination, there should be better and cheaper ways such as tagging for some criminals. This is plenty of stuff and arguments on the internet about prison sentences, so its something you could research if you are really interested in finding an answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison

Where did I say that?
Do me a favour and reply to what I have actually written.

Denerick

When should people take personal responsibility for their actions? The second they wake up in the morning. The growth of the mega state has created a culture whereby individuals can delegate their personal responsibilities to a faceless, cultureless, heartless institution that exists somewhere in the sky. Until individuals start to consider themselves as sovreign, and thus responsible for their own behaviour, social problems will always persist.