Realistically will there ever be rail to the airport?

JHMEG

A friend works for the DAA. Says they're making so much money from car parking and taxis that they'd be sunk if there ever was an efficient rail link to the airport.

He reckons there'll never be a rail link. Never!

Is he right? This is Ireland of the John O'Donoghue, Micheal Lowry, et al.

Run_to_da_hills

As said previously. money ear marked for it has already been handed over to bail out Greece. :mad:

monument

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

As said previously. money ear marked for it has already been handed over to bail out Greece. :mad:

?

robbie_998

monument wrote: »

?

in other words we don't have the funds to make the airport rail accessible because Greece got bailed out with the Irish/EU's money.

To the OP... the government will do it weather the DAA like it or not because not only is it gonna get people to the airport more effectuality but other areas too like a loop around dublin (just like the M50 really) e.g. tallaght - clondalkin - liffey valley - lucan/lexlip - somewhere - airport.

now if your coming from the country then you will need to make a connection/transfer or two but yes you will get there by rail someday.

funny enough i saw an opinion/suggestion box in the local council office the other day for Metro West.

monument

robbie_998 wrote: »

in other words we don't have the funds to make the airport rail accessible because Greece got bailed out with the Irish/EU's money.

What he claimed was that the money ear marked for Metro North has already been handed over to bail out Greece. He can't back up such a claim.

€500m was recently secured for Metro North from European Investment Bank, the bidders will pay for another yet unknown part of the project and the projects costs are unknown (the upper projections published were made in better times, not in the current environment when these type of projects are generally a good deal cheaper).

robbie_998

monument wrote: »

What he claimed was that the money ear marked for Metro North has already been handed over to bail out Greece. He can't back up such a claim.

€500m was recently secured for Metro North from European Investment Bank, the bidders will pay for another yet unknown part of the project and the projects costs are unknown (the upper projections published were made in better times, not in the current environment when these type of projects are generally a good deal cheaper).

I don't know.

schemingbohemia

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

As said previously. money ear marked for it has already been handed over to bail out Greece. :mad:

why do you bother spouting that rubbish again and again?

schemingbohemia

JHMEG wrote: »

A friend works for the DAA. Says they're making so much money from car parking and taxis that they'd be sunk if there ever was an efficient rail link to the airport.

He reckons there'll never be a rail link. Never!

Is he right? This is Ireland of the John O'Donoghue, Micheal Lowry, et al.

obviously your mate is a genius and godlike in his knowledge, let us all bow down to him and to you for being bessie mates with such a god. that's why the dumbos in the european investment bank have just agreed to pump 500million into a project that will never happen.

DAA are obviously in charge of everything in the country so their car parking needs will take priority over everything else in the country.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

DWCommuter

A serious amount of denial here. Who can spot where?

monument

DWCommuter wrote: »

A serious amount of denial here. Who can spot where?

How many budgets have passed now since people here were first sure Metro North would be scraped? Hmmm... Well, if people keep saying something they might be right at some point...

JHMEG

schemingbohemia wrote: »

obviously your mate is a genius and godlike in his knowledge, let us all bow down to him and to you for being bessie mates with such a god. that's why the dumbos in the european investment bank have just agreed to pump 500million into a project that will never happen.

DAA are obviously in charge of everything in the country so their car parking needs will take priority over everything else in the country.

Hmm. Ok.

Fact remains that not a single sod has been turned on Metro North, or any other airport rail link.

BluntGuy

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Disagree entirely. If we have to pick a project from the ones that are proposed, it should be the Interconnector.

Also, 500 million isn't enough. That makes 5.5 billion left. What people don't realise, is that actually getting the initial capital is a massive challenge in itself, never mind paying it back!

There were other options for connecting to the Airport other than an undeground tramline, and I get the feeling those options were never given a full examination.

Plus the Metro North would serve important (and presumably lucrative) stops like DCU, the Mater, etc.

It will also service a couple of fields north of Swords. :pac:

You say "presumably" lucractive. Their predicted 35 million pax figures are pie-in-the-sky.

I like to be optimistic, and I enjoy discussing these proposals, but there is a cold reality at the end of the day, and I don't see MN (or IC) being delivered this side of 2020.

JHMEG

BluntGuy wrote: »

cold reality at the end of the day, and I don't see MN (or IC) being delivered this side of 2020.

I would actually predict that by 2020 we will have less miles of rail operating passenger services than we have today.

schemingbohemia

DWCommuter wrote: »

A serious amount of denial here. Who can spot where?

let's see, facts on the one hand regarding the EIB and that there have been no announcements stating the project is being dropped and that a serious amount of money has been spent to date on the railway order process (which should be decided upon by the end of the summer)

versus (in the deluded corner)

a mate of a poster who reckons the parking money DAA rake in takes priority over everything else in the country and someone who erroneously states that the money specifically set aside for Metro North has (without anyone apart from his knowledge) been sent to Greece.

BluntGuy

schemingbohemia wrote: »

let's see, facts on the one hand regarding the EIB and that there have been no announcements stating the project is being dropped and that a serious amount of money has been spent to date on the railway order process (which should be decided upon by the end of the summer)

People accept that 500 million has been potentially contributed toward the project. It still leaves 5.5 billion to find. Okay, we'll allow for cheaper tender prices and say 3-4 billion. That's still a lot of finance to find!

A lot of things go through planning processes and don't get built for ages, we all know this.

We have yet to hear a serious commitment toward funding it. Noel Dempsey, Lenihan... NONE of them have come out and said "MN will start construction in 2011, this is how it will be funded". The money being spent on planning is peanuts compared to when the big-money question comes. That is the key issue. Now I'll allow that they can't reveal tender prices for commerically sensitive reasons, but they can't put off the question forever. At some point they'll have to either admit they don't have the money for it or explain how it will be paid for.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

BluntGuy

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The Interconnector project doesn't connect Connolly and Heuston (the mythical phoenix park tunnel does though). It connects the western line at Inchicore->Heuston->Christchurch->St.Stephen's Green->Pearse->Docklands to the Northern Line. That is 5 lucrative stops right through the heart of the city, and connecting the disjointed network together for the first time. This enables two DART lines to be formed, and lifts some of the existing capacity constraints. IE say this will allow passenger numbers on its network to treble to 100 mil pax. I would doubt this figure, but even at the least optimistic end it fairs far better than MN in terms of patronage.

Well the Luas carries more passengers than planned for. And it serves mainly residential/suburban areas. The DCU and airport stops would surely be high volume.

I won't deny the Luas despite some of its shortcomings has been quite successful. And appropriate expansion such as the Green Line Cherrywood and Luas BXD is welcome.

But you can't say "just because X was a success it means X will be a success again", there are so many other variables in play, and one of the significant ones is cost.

It may be the case that there are "a couple of fields north of Swords" at the moment. But residential and commercial areas would likely develop along the track and expand the city to the north. When the M50 was first proposed and built it probably served a few fields too. Places like Citywest, Adamstown etc. didn't exist. Tallaght was a town outside Dublin. The M50 was built to run around the outside of the city. Now it just runs through the suburbs. The Metro North would lead to similar growth over time.

Adamstown is a poor example - half-finished and its station is barely used.

The fact is, we don't need to expand the city north. That's exactly our problem. We need to start densifying the city rather than continually enroaching on the countryside with cardboard housing estates and glass office cubes. I'm not denying railway can spur growth, but not to the level the RPA are predicting. Swords becoming a 100,000 population city!? It was unrealistic in boom times, pure fantasy now. Ballymun has 30,000 people is it? DCU has 10000 students . And far less people use the airport now. The passenger figures on which any original cost-benefit studies were carried out render said studies irrelevant.

With our economy in tatters, unless we have another insane bubble, their predictions will not be fulfilled for quite a while.

Now with all that said, I don't think MN will be outright cancelled. Merely postponed.

schemingbohemia

BluntGuy wrote: »

People accept that 500 million has been potentially contributed toward the project. It still leaves 5.5 billion to find. Okay, we'll allow for cheaper tender prices and say 3-4 billion. That's still a lot of finance to find!

A lot of things go through planning processes and don't get built for ages, we all know this.

We have yet to hear a serious commitment toward funding it. Noel Dempsey, Lenihan... NONE of them have come out and said "MN will start construction in 2011, this is how it will be funded". The money being spent on planning is peanuts compared to when the big-money question comes. That is the key issue. Now I'll allow that they can't reveal tender prices for commerically sensitive reasons, but they can't put off the question forever. At some point they'll have to either admit they don't have the money for it or explain how it will be paid for.

You do know that it's a PPP and that the vast majority of the funding will therefore come from the private sector? There's no figure to reveal as it depends what the 2 remaining tender consortia bid and if that beats the Public Sector Benchmark figure.

Can't do multi-quoting so with regard to your other post, most of which is spot-on in fairness, the point to remember is that MN and the DART Underground are both multi-generational projects and while the initial passenger numbers will probably be down on that forecast, that doesn't make them bad projects and building now will take advantage of much lower costs than were included in the business cases for both. Swings and roundabouts.

Cool Mo D

BluntGuy wrote: »

I won't deny the Luas despite some of its shortcomings has been quite successful. And appropriate expansion such as the Green Line Cherrywood and Luas BXD is welcome.

But you can't say "just because X was a success it means X will be a success again", there are so many other variables in play, and one of the significant ones is cost.

But there are not many other variables in play. The cost of building the Metro is an important factor, but it has precisely zero effect on how successful the Metro will be at carrying passengers.

What the Luas proves is that there is a large demand for decent quality rail transport in Dublin's suburbs. Looking at Dublin's public transport, there is a very clear trend that better public transport equals more people using it. The Metro serves high demand locations that the Luas just doesn't have - the airport, a large University, the highest density residential area in the entire country is located around the Mater and Parnell stops, the countries largest town without a train service, Croke Park, and Ballymun is high density residential where there is a large dependency on public transport.

The Metro also opens underdeveloped ares for much greater usage - around Drumcondra, and Griffith avenue are ripe for densification, and close to the city. The Metro can have a very big role in consolidating the city.

The interconnector is a more important project for now - it will be a big improvement in already proven popular rail transport, and integrates underused routes, but it will be an improvement of already existing services, without so much opening of new areas to rail transport. But the Metro will bring rail transport to areas without any at all, and areas with more development prospects, and over the long term, I think will have a greater impact.

BluntGuy wrote: »

Now with all that said, I don't think MN will be outright cancelled. Merely postponed.

If the Metro is postponed, I doubt it will be built at all for at least another 20 years. If the current Government don't sign off on it, the new Government won't, as they will be looking to set an example of restraint in the finances - which is not compatible with spending money on a project the previous government found too expensive.

By the end of their term, planning will have expired, and then, everyone will be so sick of the Metro that no-one will be in a hurry to go through with it again for quite a while.

jack presley

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

As said previously. money ear marked for it has already been handed over to bail out Greece. :mad:

Greece don't need a link to their airport do they?:)

Cool Mo D

jack presley wrote: »

Greece don't need a link to their airport do they?:)

They finished their airport metro 6 years ago...

BluntGuy

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You do know that it's a PPP and that the vast majority of the funding will therefore come from the private sector? There's no figure to reveal as it depends what the 2 remaining tender consortia bid and if that beats the Public Sector Benchmark figure.

I do know this. However I'm also aware the market for PPP funding is
not in the best of shape, and the cost of borrowing is higher.

The PPP scheme we were keeping an eye on was the M17/M18 scheme, since that is the first major, big infrastructural transport PPP planned to go ahead in these economic times. We were looking to see if that got finance, because if it managed to secure finance,we knew there was at least a chance other projects might. However, it has recently been approved a loan (in principle) from the EIB (I think to the same value as the MN loan) which will pretty much pay for the project in full, so it's hardly a good indicator anymore.

JHMEG

Cool Mo D wrote: »

They finished their airport metro 6 years ago...

I'm guessing we're probably the only real country in the EU that doesn't have a rail link to the biggest airport?

Run_to_da_hills

Cool Mo D wrote: »

They finished their airport metro 6 years ago...

The reason why they are now smashed.

sdanseo

JHMEG wrote: »

A friend works for the DAA. Says they're making so much money from car parking and taxis that they'd be sunk if there ever was an efficient rail link to the airport.

I worked for the DAA and that ideology certainly wouldn't be out of place there. That's not to say I could really blame them for being reluctant, if they lose money they'll have to let staff go which is hard.

At frontline though I won't hear a bad word said, sound bunch with honourable exceptions as per everywhere else. The DAA is not the DAA, if you get my drift. Tar and brush.

JHMEG

sdonn wrote: »

I worked for the DAA

Is the Manager1 gets a bonus if he promotes someone to Manager2 bit true aswell? Where my mate works there are something like 24 managers and 4 ordinary staff.

KevR

sdonn wrote: »

I worked for the DAA and that ideology certainly wouldn't be out of place there. That's not to say I could really blame them for being reluctant, if they lose money they'll have to let staff go which is hard.

I think DAA will have to and will be able to adapt. I think it could end up being a Heatrow-esque situation at Dublin Airport if it ever gets a rail link (i.e. - with 'special'/more expensive fares imposed on journeys to/from the airport). Dublin Bus already have more expensive fares to the airport than they would have for similar length journeys to anywhere else in the city (I presume that the DAA charge DB some fee for buses at the airport?).

Highly Salami

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm guessing we're probably the only real country in the EU that doesn't have a rail link to the biggest airport?

Correctomundo!

jack presley

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm guessing we're probably the only real country in the EU that doesn't have a rail link to the biggest airport?

.......or a Metro/underground in it's capital city

Cool Mo D

Highly Salami wrote: »

Correctomundo!

Nope there's quite a few that don't, even though most do, and all the big ones do.

Finland would be a good example of one that doesn't (yet).

schemingbohemia

KevR wrote: »

I think DAA will have to and will be able to adapt. I think it could end up being a Heatrow-esque situation at Dublin Airport if it ever gets a rail link (i.e. - with 'special'/more expensive fares imposed on journeys to/from the airport). Dublin Bus already have more expensive fares to the airport than they would have for similar length journeys to anywhere else in the city (I presume that the DAA charge DB some fee for buses at the airport?).

if you knew anything at all about Metro North you'd know that there won't be 'special' fares to the airport as all services will go through there on their way to Swords.

Dublin Bus have lots of services at normal fares to the airport - 16a/41 and if you have an annual pass the airlink is included.

oharach

schemingbohemia wrote: »

if you knew anything at all about Metro North you'd know that there won't be 'special' fares to the airport as all services will go through there on their way to Swords.

There's no need to be so emphatic – it's a reasonable question.

From rpa.ie:

Q: What will the fares be on Metro North? Will there be a premium fare to the airport? A. Metro North fares will be set much closer to the time of opening. A full range of products including period passes for regular commuters including airport workers will be available.

Note that this doesn't rule out premium fares, especially for single journeys, as opposed to monthly/annual passes.

Since entry is to be controlled by barriers, it would be possible to charge a premium rate for journeys starting/ending at the airport, while through journeys would be charged at the normal rate.

KevR

schemingbohemia wrote: »

if you knew anything at all about Metro North you'd know that there won't be 'special' fares to the airport as all services will go through there on their way to Swords.

If you knew anything about something called an 'automatic ticket barrier' you would know that they could easily charge premium fares for the airport despite all services continuing onto Swords.

By the by, Crossrail in London will use the exact same zonal pricing throughout London except for all journeys to/from Heathrow Airport which will have the same premium pricing as the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect.

Easily possible in Dublin.

BrianD

schemingbohemia wrote: »

if you knew anything at all about Metro North you'd know that there won't be 'special' fares to the airport as all services will go through there on their way to Swords.

Dublin Bus have lots of services at normal fares to the airport - 16a/41 and if you have an annual pass the airlink is included.

Sydney has separate pricing for rail to and from their airport. They call it a "station access fee". There's almost $20 in the difference on an off-peak return for going from the centre to the airport and from the centre to the stop after the airport.