Beast no more?

Risteard

Kimberley – Sharks loosehead prop Tendai “Beast” Mtawarira may be lost to Springbok rugby.

Mtawarira, who has played 22 Tests for South Africa, was omitted from the Bok side to play Wales in Cardiff on June 5.

His omission follows the insistence by the South African government that no overseas players may be included in national teams.

This is in spite of Mtawarira living in South Africa for longer than five years and that he has met the International Rugby Board’s (IRB) criteria. However, he apparently does not have a South African passport.

The concern around the 25-year-old’s inclusion was raised for the first time in November when Sports Minister Makhenkesi Stofile tried to stop him from touring France, Ireland and Italy with the Boks.

Stofile even went as far as placing advertisements in local media to protest Mtawarira’s inclusion. This after the player had already made his debut for South Africa in 2008.

SARU offered Mtawarira a contract in February with the hope that his application for citizenship would be speedily resolved. However, it is still dragging on for unknown reasons.

The issue also raised questions why other Zimbabweans such as Tonderai Chavhanga and Brian Mujati were allowed to play for the Boks by the South African government.

Sharks commercial manager Rudolf Straeuli confirmed to Sport24 on Wednesday that the Durbanites had followed all the regulations to get Mtawarira as a player.

“The Sharks followed all the correct procedures on Beast. We took all the legal steps. Beast joined our academy and is still with us,” said Straeuli.

Mtawarira may look to continue his rugby career elsewhere because of his treatment by the South African government.

On Wednesday he expressed his worry about the current situation on Twitter.

“To be able to left out of the Bok team for the first Test because of citizenship is really bad. I cherish that Bok jersey more than anything. I hope the problem can be resolved as soon as possible,” he said.

Rugby365 reports that SARU’s manager of national teams, Andy Marinos, confirmed that Mtawarira would need the government’s permission before he could play for the Boks again.

Link

So he might not be able to play Rugby for the Boks anymore because although he meets IRB regulations, he doesn't meet SA government ones.

Zzippy

Quick, call him Paddy and give him a passport!

Judgement Day

Zzippy wrote: »

Quick, call him Paddy and give him a passport!

He'd have to wait his turn with the 61,000 others by which time he would be too old to play for Ireland or anyone else.

GymJim

IS that the same Andy Marinos who played with Wales?

How the hell did he become head of SARU. Bit odd.

Trojan

Game's in Wales, no jurisdiction for SA gov, ignore them and play him anyway?

themont85

The SA government are an odd bunch at the best of times.

PhatPiggins

This type of black on black racism is all the rage in SA at the mo, especially when its Zimbweans involved. Politics still playing its part in SA sport.

wilhelm

GymJim wrote: »

IS that the same Andy Marinos who played with Wales?

How the hell did he become head of SARU. Bit odd.

Listen to an interview of Marinos and it all becomes clear. Andy is a South African of Welsh heritage.

GymJim

wilhelm wrote: »

Listen to an interview of Marinos and it all becomes clear. Andy is a South African of Welsh heritage.

I'm pretty sure Marinos was originally Zimbabwean...which is interesting in this situation with the Beast actually.

Still seems strange for essentially an outsider to get to the top of the tree in SA rugby politics.

Crash

CEO of SANZAR as well, at 37? impressive enough CV.

anonymous_joe

He's not South African. Why the fcuk should he be allowed play for them?

GymJim

Crash wrote: »

CEO of SANZAR as well, at 37? impressive enough CV.

He's only 37? That's especially strange so. Surely there would have been loads of guys ahead of him in the queue for those jobs.

I always thought he looked about 37 when he was playing with the Dragons. Must have retired quite young. Quite an average player too tbf...never international standard.

durkadurka

anonymous_joe wrote: »

He's not South African. Why the fcuk should he be allowed play for them?

the eligibility rules are pretty loose. Witness isaac boss and tom court and others playing for ireland. Or better still japans rugby team!

Mr.Applepie

durkadurka wrote: »

the eligibility rules are pretty loose. Witness isaac boss and tom court and others playing for ireland. Or better still japans rugby team!

Or even better again New Zealand!

anonymous_joe

durkadurka wrote: »

the eligibility rules are pretty loose. Witness isaac boss and tom court and others playing for ireland. Or better still japans rugby team!

Boss has an Irish granny. He can get an Irish passport and be Irish. Court etc, less clear for sure.

Mtawawira just happens to be from a poor country, so the Saffers nick him, as the New Zealanders do with PI players. It's pathetic.

durkadurka

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/0/regulation8090603%5f8283.pdf

Subject to Regulation 8.2, a Player may only play for the senior fifteen-aside
National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team and the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of the Union of the country in which:
(a) he was born; or
(b) one parent or grandparent was born; or
(c) he has completed thirty six consecutive months of Residence

immediately preceding the time of playing.


so that's all - live anywhere for 3 years and you're eligible

JonnyF

GymJim wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Marinos was originally Zimbabwean...which is interesting in this situation with the Beast actually.

Still seems strange for essentially an outsider to get to the top of the tree in SA rugby politics.

#


you're right there. he was born in harare, (well it was called salisbury then). I coached in Zim while doing some charity work there a couple of years ago, tendai mtawarira is a hero there. a lot of the rugby players there would look at playng for the boks in the same way that we might think of the Lions or maybe like Eoin Morgan playing for england because he can't play full test cricket with Ireland.

Digifriendly

durkadurka wrote: »

the eligibility rules are pretty loose. Witness isaac boss and tom court and others playing for ireland. Or better still japans rugby team!

James Alridge (ex Dragons out half) scored a try for Japan in recent Asian WC qualifier. Check out 'Rugby dump' website for highlights - some other foreign imports there as well. Or watch this clip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl0Xw32kMlY&feature=player_embedded

anonymous_joe

durkadurka wrote: »

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/0/regulation8090603%5f8283.pdf

Subject to Regulation 8.2, a Player may only play for the senior fifteen-aside
National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team and the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of the Union of the country in which:
(a) he was born; or
(b) one parent or grandparent was born; or
(c) he has completed thirty six consecutive months of Residence

immediately preceding the time of playing.


so that's all - live anywhere for 3 years and you're eligible

Black Saffers seem to hate black Zimbos.

Lot of attacks on Zimbabwean blacks in townships.

chupacabra

This is incredibly unfair to do to a player who has already given a lot to South African rugby. Fair enough if the government are adamant that "non South African nationals" be excluded from the national side, but why wait until a player is established as the no.1 in their position and then repeatedly jerk them around with indecision and bullshít politics? What about Percy Montgomery? Sure he went to boarding school in Cape Town but he was born and raised in Namibia. Should he have been excluded from the national side? Of course not.

Even more concerning is the likes of Butana Komphela (head of the government sports committee) who says he should be thrown out of the country altogether! :eek:
There's more to this than meets the eye of course what with the rampant xenophobia all over SA towards immigrants and refugees from many northern countries including Zimbabwe. Many zim citizens living in south africa are being forced out of their homes and shipped back over the border and there is often violence in the northern regions often leading in violent murders of zimbabwe citizens. But thats for the politics forum (sorry mods)

The fans in south africa and many ex-pats are starting to get concerned with how far the government reaches into south african sports and how headless they appear to be with their often self contradicting policies on color and "race" when they don't even have a clue how to fix their own problems. If SARU bows to government pressure and if Tendai is banished from playing for South Africa then Oregon Hoskins and his cronies should be ashamed of themselves.

That being said, he is very welcome to munster if that happens.

anonymous_joe

chupacabra wrote: »

This is incredibly unfair to do to a player who has already given a lot to South African rugby. Fair enough if the government are adamant that "non South African nationals" be excluded from the national side, but why wait until a player is established as the no.1 in their position and then repeatedly jerk them around with indecision and bullshít politics? What about Percy Montgomery? Sure he went to boarding school in Cape Town but he was born and raised in Namibia. Should he have been excluded from the national side? Of course not.

Even more concerning is the likes of Butana Komphela (head of the government sports committee) who says he should be thrown out of the country altogether! :eek:
There's more to this than meets the eye of course what with the rampant xenophobia all over SA towards immigrants and refugees from many northern countries including Zimbabwe. Many zim citizens living in south africa are being forced out of their homes and shipped back over the border and there is often violence in the northern regions often leading in violent murders of zimbabwe citizens. But thats for the politics forum (sorry mods)

The fans in south africa and many ex-pats are starting to get concerned with how far the government reaches into south african sports and how headless they appear to be with their often self contradicting policies on color and "race" when they don't even have a clue how to fix their own problems. If SARU bows to government pressure and if Tendai is banished from playing for South Africa then Oregon Hoskins and his cronies should be ashamed of themselves.

That being said, he is very welcome to munster if that happens.

Interestingly, when Percy Montgomery was born, his birthplace was part of South Africa, it's now part of Namibia.

In fairness though, South Africa have raped Namibia and Zimbabwe, both those sides would be significantly stronger at rugby were it not for our Afrikaan friends.

Diamondmaker

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Boss has an Irish granny. He can get an Irish passport and be Irish. Court etc, less clear for sure.

Mtawawira just happens to be from a poor country, so the Saffers nick him, as the New Zealanders do with PI players. It's pathetic.

The Ozzies are good at it too, they get to raid NZ even for similar economic reasons. There is even a current scandal about fee playing schools poaching Islanders and putting them on scholarships that involve no education worth riting home about ( deliberate spelling typo ).

Cooper, Ioane, Edmonds and O Connor to name but 4 Kiwi born Wallabies off the top of my head, moved to Oz young undoubtedly for economic reasons with fanily. Genia is PNG and Elsom Irish

We need to start raping Poland for Props !

sock puppet

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Boss has an Irish granny. He can get an Irish passport and be Irish. Court etc, less clear for sure.

Mtawawira just happens to be from a poor country, so the Saffers nick him, as the New Zealanders do with PI players. It's pathetic.

The problem I have with Court is that he went to the Olympic trials back in Australia. Irish ancestor or not I'd consider that to make him a bit of a mercenary. Though I don't think anything will ever top Flutey playing for and against the Lions

danthefan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Boss has an Irish granny. He can get an Irish passport and be Irish. Court etc, less clear for sure.

Mtawawira just happens to be from a poor country, so the Saffers nick him, as the New Zealanders do with PI players. It's pathetic.

Fairly uninformed opinion. What PI players have NZ nicked? What you'll find is the vast majority of Islanders who play for NZ moved there when they were kids, so grew up, went to school and learned their rugby in NZ. They are naturalised NZers.

As for Mtawarira, Zimbabwe are not a rugby country. There is nothing pathetic about him playing for SA. In fact here is his own view on being pathetically poached:

I am a South African at heart. I love this country. It has become my home. It is everything to me. Wearing the green and gold of the Springboks is a huge honour for me. That jersey is part of me. The green and gold flows in my blood. I feel just as much pride as any other guy in the team.

davyjose

danthefan wrote: »

What PI players have NZ nicked? What you'll find is the vast majority of Islanders who play for NZ moved there when they were kids, so grew up, went to school and learned their rugby in NZ. They are naturalised NZers.

Sivivatu moved to NZ when he was 17 and had already played for the Pacific islands. He was picked by NZ after two years living in NZ. Sione Lauaki played for the PI as well. And Rokocoko is from Fiji as well. Maybe not quite nicking these players, but if Rugby is to grow, it needs to shut the flow of players "choosing" to play for the nation which best suits them. i think there might be more.

Rokocoko with no kiwi blood, but there since he was five, fair enough. The Sivivatu situation was a joke though. He's as Kiwi as I am.

davyjose

danthefan wrote: »

As for Mtawarira, Zimbabwe are not a rugby country.

Ah here, that's a joke of a reason to play for a nation that's not your own. I agree with Chupacabra, he's commited his life to SA Rugby and should of course be allowed stay, but the idea of people moving nations because they want to play for the best team, that's a joke - that's what club rugby is for.

stephen_n

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Black Saffers seem to hate black Zimbos.

Lot of attacks on Zimbabwean blacks in townships.

South Africans are Zulu's Zimbabweans are Matabele long before European colonisation they were the dominant tribes in the horn of Africa. Bit like tribal divides on boards they are still enemies

Fishtits

"The Beast" was never up to much in all fairness.

Fishtits

stephen_n wrote: »

South Africans are Zulu's Zimbabweans are Matabele long before European colonisation they were the dominant tribes in the horn of Africa. Bit like tribal divides on boards they are still enemies

God love your ignorance...

If it were only so simple...;)

rockman15

Politics and sport have never mixed well. Fact.

SA gov obviously trying to make a point here on national imigration laws. Unfortunatly sport is one option for disadvantaged kids to get out of the poverty cycle. I see no reason to stop him playing if he meets the national requirements, which i (:D) or anyone of us here, would have to meet to play for SA.

Such a waste of natural talent is very disappointing to see and very short sighted.

d'Oracle

Fishtits wrote: »

God love your ignorance...

If it were only so simple...;)

+1 There is a whole host of more modern reasons for this social discord.

PhatPiggins

davyjose wrote: »

Sivivatu moved to NZ when he was 17 and had already played for the Pacific islands. He was picked by NZ after two years living in NZ. Sione Lauaki played for the PI as well. And Rokocoko is from Fiji as well. Maybe not quite nicking these players, but if Rugby is to grow, it needs to shut the flow of players "choosing" to play for the nation which best suits them. i think there might be more.

Rokocoko with no kiwi blood, but there since he was five, fair enough. The Sivivatu situation was a joke though. He's as Kiwi as I am.

Pacific Islands isn't a country though its Basically a BaBa's team. Sivivatu clompleted his residency same as anyone, there's no joke about it. Why shouldn't a player move to another country if he choses to.

No Kiwi blood -

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

Fairly uninformed opinion. What PI players have NZ nicked? What you'll find is the vast majority of Islanders who play for NZ moved there when they were kids, so grew up, went to school and learned their rugby in NZ. They are naturalised NZers.

As for Mtawarira, Zimbabwe are not a rugby country. There is nothing pathetic about him playing for SA. In fact here is his own view on being pathetically poached:

I mentioned poverty for a reason.

Poaching is a charge often levelled at New Zealand, it's rarely too blatant, the likes of Rockocoko etc playing for New Zealand are there because of New Zealand's ability to use its economic strength to draw players there, whether deliberate or not.

Same with all the various Namibians and Zimbabweans playing in Super 14 rather than for their nations, and all the lads from teh Islands who play in S14 and don't play for the Island sides for fear of being made unemployed by NZRU.

stephen_n wrote: »

South Africans are Zulu's Zimbabweans are Matabele long before European colonisation they were the dominant tribes in the horn of Africa. Bit like tribal divides on boards they are still enemies

Indeed. The Zulus were murderous bástards and hated around there iirc.

danthefan

Rocokoco wasn't a rugby player when he moved to NZ. He was 5 years old. What would your suggesting be in that particular case? Force him to play for Fiji?

We're not exactly innocent of this ourselves, many English born players such as Geoghegan, Hendo, Easterby x2 all played for us. More recently Leinster have taken a couple of young Welsh players into the academy, is that pathetic also? Tom Court was poached, Robbie Diack was signed with a view to him becoming Irish qualified, so was Richardt Strauss.

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

Rocokoco wasn't a rugby player when he moved to NZ. He was 5 years old. What would your suggesting be in that particular case? Force him to play for Fiji?

We're not exactly innocent of this ourselves, many English born players such as Geoghegan, Hendo, Easterby x2 all played for us.

Not at all.

I'm merely pointing out that NZ use their financial muscle to secure players. Not always deliberately, as in the case of Joe, but certainly more so with others.

randomname2005

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Not at all.

I'm merely pointing out that NZ use their financial muscle to secure players. Not always deliberately, as in the case of Joe, but certainly more so with others.

There are pleanty of other teams around the world that use their financial muscle to target players. Lets look at Japan's 5 highest scorers in the recent asian 5 nations series:
Endo, Kosuke. (Japanese)
Webb, Shaun. (English?)
Tupuailei, Alisi. (Samoan)
Arlidge, James. (New Zealand)
Ryan Nicholas. (Australia)

The remainder of the list does become more native Japanese, but these players are brought to Japan so that they can be resident for three years and play for the national team. I'm not saying it is right, just that it happens in all levels of international rugby.

Risteard

Link

The South African Rugby Union says it has been instructed by the country's ministry of sport to stop selecting Tendai Mtawarira for the national team because he is not a South African citizen.

SARU said on Saturday it had told its selectors they could no longer pick the Zimbabwe-born prop, who has played 22 Tests for South Africa, after it had received a letter from the deputy sports minister.

Mtawarira, nicknamed "Beast" by fans, is legally resident in South Africa and fulfilled the eligibility criteria of the International Rugby Board, according to SARU, but does not hold a South African passport.

The letter said that no foreign player can be selected to a national team.

chupacabra

Risteard wrote: »

Link

Disgraceful, you lose hope in sport when the government starts to decide matters such as this. They should keep their noses out of matters they simply dont understand.

As much as it would pain me to see him leave Durban i think Tendai would be much happier playing in.. lets say europe playing for... lets say munster.

sock puppet

chupacabra wrote: »

Disgraceful, you lose hope in sport when the government starts to decide matters such as this. They should keep their noses out of matters they simply dont understand.

As much as it would pain me to see him leave Durban i think Tendai would be much happier playing in.. lets say europe playing for... lets say munster.

He's not exactly a brilliant scrummager though.

almighty1

sock puppet wrote: »

He's not exactly a brilliant scrummager though.

Say that to World Cup winner Phil Vickery. I somewhat agree though, his play in the loose is the stronger part of the game and I think he scrummed illegally against the Loins last year. Both boring in and lifting up the front row.

How long has he lived in SA (sorry may be in a previous part of the thread). If he has lived there for longer than 10 years then he sould be classed as a SA citizen.

TheTMO

There must be a que of European clubs looking to sign him now. He would be perfect for Munster. I would love to see him playing for an Irish province...if hes banned from playing for South Africa and he gains residency here could the IRB ignore his previous caps and allow him to play for Ireland?? mmmmm

Kiwi_knock

Absolute disgrace SARU, he is already a fully fledged member of the squad and was surely going to be an integral piece of SA bid to retain the World Cup. Ludicrous logic behind it. Can see him heading off to Europe most likely France. A loss for SA rugby

Risteard

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Absolute disgrace SARU, he is already a fully fledged member of the squad and was surely going to be an integral piece of SA bid to retain the World Cup. Ludicrous logic behind it. Can see him heading off to Europe most likely France. A loss for SA rugby

To be fair, it's not the SARU, I'm sure they want to pick him, it's the SA government.

REXER

danthefan wrote: »

Fairly uninformed opinion. What PI players have NZ nicked? What you'll find is the vast majority of Islanders who play for NZ moved there when they were kids, so grew up, went to school and learned their rugby in NZ. They are naturalised NZers.

As for Mtawarira, Zimbabwe are not a rugby country. There is nothing pathetic about him playing for SA. In fact here is his own view on being pathetically poached:

Rhodesia/Zimbabwe has always had a proud rugby history.They managed a draw and a win against the All Blacks in 1949!

subfreq

So cruel once a guy is established to pull it from him like this. Heartbreaking stuff.

I think it would be helpful in the future if the IRB changed eligibility rules so that residency did not count and it was only parentage back to grand parents that gives a player entitlement to represent a country.

El Weirdo

On Wednesday he expressed his worry about the current situation on Twitter.

“To be able to left out of the Bok team for the first Test because of citizenship is really bad. I cherish that Bok jersey more than anything. I hope the problem can be resolved as soon as possible,” he said.

That's more than 140 characters.

Risteard

Link

Johannesburg - The South African Rugby Union announced on Friday that prop Tendai Mtawarira had been cleared for selection for the Springboks following the granting of South African citizenship.

Mtawarira was unavailable for selection for the Springboks’ first four Tests of 2010 – against Wales, France and Italy (2) – as he was not a holder of South African passport. The decision to exclude him form selection was taken following advice from the Ministry of Sport reaffirming the government’s position that no foreign player can be selected to represent a national team.

Mtawarira had been actively seeking South African citizenship and has now been granted that right by the minister for Home Affairs, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma

“This is very gratifying news indeed and thanks to much hard work that has been going on behind the scenes over the past few months,” said Oregan Hoskins, president of the South African Rugby Union.

“I’d like to personally thank Minister Dlamini-Zuma for her intervention to assist in this matter. It had long been the Beast’s desire to become naturalised and he has had to endure some difficult times in recent months. He is now eligible for selection should he fit into the plans of the coach and national selectors.”

The Springbok squad for the away-leg of the Tri-Nations will be named by Hoskins and Springbok coach Peter de Villiers on Saturday evening following the Test against Italy in East London. It will be broadcast live on SuperSport 1 at 17:30.

PhatPiggins

Risteard wrote: »

Link

So basically the SA foreign minister refused permission for him to play even though he qualifies on residency and wants a medal because she gave him citizenship! Sounds a bit Irish.

Watching the SA scrum get pummeled by the French and the Italians may have helped speed up the process.

PhatPiggins

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Watching the SA scrum get pummeled by the French and the Italians may have helped speed up the process.

He's fairly average so I doubt he will make much of a difference.

PhatPiggins

Deleted User wrote: »

He's fairly average so I doubt he will make much of a difference.

True but at least they wont have to play John Smith at TH anymore. He is useful around the padock though.

Bleedin Delish

Judgement Day wrote: »

He'd have to wait his turn with the 61,000 others by which time he would be too old to play for Ireland or anyone else.

If Bertie was still around that wouldnt be a problem ... he would get straight to top of list ha ha