The ones who'll get away....

dan_d

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0527/1224271230207.html?via=rel

I know this has been discussed to death, but front page of the Irish Times today makes me incredibly angry.

To all those people out there who want to protest, this is what we should be protesting against. Why aren't the main players in the DDDA, FAS, Anglo, and the various other "development companies" and their owners (all of whom are nearly one and the same group of people) being stripped of their assets, their passports removed, and their positions on any and every board of management/directors etc cancelled?? These people have proved without doubt that they are not trustworthy, that they have taken us all for a ride, and more importantly, that they could not care less. They are continuing living their lives of excess while denying that they ever did anything wrong or immoral or unethical.

Whatever about people getting huge mortgages, and overstretching themselves to live a lifestyle they couldn't afford, these are the real criminals. It's one thing to vote the Gov out in the next election - but these guys will probably never be touched by the law, even though they played as big a part in this whole mess as everyone else did.

It actually makes me raging just to read this stuff.:mad:

ardmacha

These people have proved without doubt that they are not trustworthy, that they have taken us all for a ride, and more importantly, that they could not care less.

They have. But in a lawful society unless you've actually broken a law you cannot have your assets or passport confiscated.

bamboozle

messrs Ahern, Cowan and McCreevey were the puppets for all the developers, it annoys me that we're so weak as a nation that these guys are still paid public representatives (well not Charlie)

Nidot

Another example of the wrong people being allowed to enter arangements on behalf of the state.

There is no direct way the people of Ireland can get personal satisfaction for the mistakes perpetrated by these few.

We can only set in motion changes which will ensure that nothing like this ever happens again in the future.

dan_d

Absoutely Nidot. We have to lay down the ground rules now, make it clear to these people and their ilk that this behaviour will not be tolerated.

In a lawful society you cannot have your assets or passports confiscated.....but the way they have behaved in the last number of years is lawless. As I said, it's time to set the precendent, lay out the ground rules.....and do what is necessary for the best interests of the country. And allowing these people to keep their positions has proven to be in nobody's interests, least of all the people of Ireland. They will run the minute a light shines on them in relation to all of this - hence the confiscation of the passport.

People will never directly get personal satisfaction for their behaviour, but I for one would feel slightly better if I knew they were being forced to accept even a portion of the consequences of their actions. It would make headlines like this slightly (not much) easier to read. While we can vote out (and I fully intend to) the likes of Ahern, McCreevy and Cowen, as the people of Ireland we need to make it fully clear that fat cats such as these cannot be allowed to behave in such a manner again.

Nidot

I'm not endorsing persecution of these people for the actions they have taken which as we have seen were not for the greater good.

What I am suggesting is a change in how these positions are filled in the future and the greater role which will requre new responsibilities.

I believe with the amount of state support that these companies/organisations are receiving that they should ammend their articles of association to include a proviso that all decisions are taken with regard to the best interests of all stakeholders in the organisation (this would include employees, suppliers, customers and the general publc).

By inputting such a proviso, this would hopefully ensure that all people charged with controlling the assets/business of the company would pursue it in the best interests of the stakeholders, and should they not due this they would be liable to being fired with no culpability to the organisation.

I know this would never happen though as the people who would be required to ratify such a change aer exactly the people who would lose most from it.

Ah well, a dreamer can dream can't they.

RichardAnd

The recession was caused by the many and not the few, I think that's one of the few things most sane people on this board will agree on. However, I firmly believe that there are a select group of individuals who abused their positions for their own ends whilst selling the state short.

If I were in in charge of this country, my solution would be to have these people put on trial for treason, which under Irish law carried a sentence of 40 years in prison. What some of them have done can be labelled with any euphemism under the sun but the fact is that stole and lied for their own greedy ends. That would seem to merit a charge of treason, though in my book, I would be dusting off the gallows for a few of them.

dan_d

Nidot wrote: »

I believe with the amount of state support that these companies/organisations are receiving that they should ammend their articles of association to include a proviso that all decisions are taken with regard to the best interests of all stakeholders in the organisation (this would include employees, suppliers, customers and the general publc).

While in theory - and in all likelihood in a better regulated country - this would be sufficient to rein in the excesses of the few, I just don't think it would work here.

The report cited "a lack of oversight" on the part of Paul Maloney. Not the most quantifiable of failings. Different people would have different ideas of what decisions would be in the best interests and how. As I said, there is now a serious lack of trust between the people of this country, and people in positions on these boards. The guidelines need to be black and white, no grey.....easier said than done I know, but those in power have shown that they simply abuse it and can't be trusted. Regulation is required badly along with stricter guidelines on boards decisions. Also a serious curtailing of the number of board places one person is allowed to hold.

The recession was caused by many - we all played our parts - but some are suffering more than others. The ordinary people are paying with their jobs, rises in tax or paycuts. The politicians will in all likelihood be voted out....some would say that's not a sufficient consequence, but for them it will have to be. But there is a select few who will escape scott-free and who abused their positions badly.

RichardAnd I agree wholeheartedly. I am not looking for blood. I am simply looking for people to be made face the consequences of their actions, so that at least I (and others) feel that the country may be able to stand on it's feet again some day in the future. But while people like this are let away with this behaviour, I can simply see a repeat of this whole mess happening at some point in the future.

Nidot

This is definitely something which needs to be examined in any future shake-up of the oversight system.

Changes which are made now will be the rules and regulations which will be in place when the next issue arises in 20 years.

Proper oversight of the work of government appointed board members really needs to be looked at.

These appointees although meant to look after the interests of the shareholders primarily they now need to take the public interests into account.

These board members of government organisations and government appointees need to make protection of public interests their main concern, especially with the economic support being given to these organisations and companies.

Liam Byrne

Prof Brennan said the authority’s “financial exposure issues improved dramatically” since the Glass Bottle site loans were transferred to the National Asset Management Agency (Nama).

“If we have to pay money, it will be to Nama. One arm of the taxpayer will be paying to another arm of the taxpayer.” She said this did not excuse what had happened.

What planet is she on ?

The only reason it's going to NAMA is because NAMA had to bail out Anglo, and we've already "invested" enough to Anglo to more than write off the so-called "discount".....we've already paid out for it, love......your dodgy organisation is paying the taxpayer back!!!!!! :mad:

And "the authority's financial exposure" should be THE EXACT SAME; is she expecting a discount from NAMA or something ?

What an idiot!

I give up!

Gurgle

dan_d wrote: »

Why aren't the main players in the DDDA, FAS, Anglo, and the various other "development companies" and their owners (all of whom are nearly one and the same group of people) being stripped of their assets, their passports removed, and their positions on any and every board of management/directors etc cancelled?? These people have proved without doubt that they are not trustworthy/QUOTE]
Did someone say they were trustworthy? Or lead you to believe it?

The problems are due to legislation and regulation - or lack thereof.
Why the lack? Because 'we' keep electing crooks to run the country, and then acting shocked every time one gets caught.

cson

Confiscate their passports? Christ, the hat tipping to Stalin continues unabated in this forum. :pac:

Liam Byrne

cson wrote: »

Confiscate their passports? Christ, the hat tipping to Stalin continues unabated in this forum. :pac:

What does Stalin have to do with the fact that employees of ours cost us a fortune through their incompetence ?

If that were a private company, you can be damn sure that security would be called to ensure that you didn't leave the building.

dan_d

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/government-seeks-report-on-fingleton-practices-2196132.html

"Directors of Irish Nationwide, past and present, must uphold their fiduciary duties to the building society, exercising their powers in the interests of the company, rather than in the interests of a member or customer.
Directors must also carry out their duties with due care, skill and diligence. Legally defined, this means a degree of skill beyond what could be expected from someone with no experience of the banking sector."


Note the extract above from the front page of the business section in the Independent yesterday (not my paper of choice!)


These provisos are already in place and were obviously totally ignored.I also wonder what level of skill and experience a lot of directors/board members had in the banking sector - and how many were appointed because they knew the right people.


What would be your suggestion cson, given that we have a number of people used to living a certain lifestyle, and with no intention of taking the consequences of what they've done? And with the means and method to leave at the first sign of trouble? Given that they've already proven that they can't be trusted.....what do you suggest? From the article I've linked to above, and a few other articles I've read in the past number of days, I would imagine there are a few board directors and senior bank members feeling a bit uncomfortable right now. It seems that the Gov and financial regulator among others are turning up the heat on them, although whether they can actually do anything to bring them to some sort of justice is questionable.

Nijmegen

Law and Justice are two different things. The gap is wider in some parts of the world over others.

Liam Byrne

dan_d wrote: »

whether they can actually do anything to bring them to some sort of justice is questionable.

Whether they are willing to is also questionable.

thebman

Docklands was exempt from certain oversight other areas of Dublin wasn't exempt from.

I can't remember the details exactly but I was working in the area so recognised the name on the radio when it was being discussed at the time and it made sense as the stuff going on there was insane.

There seemed to be no standards for building in the area and anyone could build anything if they had the cash. I think height restrictions for buildings didn't apply in Docklands. One of the buildings near where I worked was about 10 stories high but really small each floor was like one apartment with no parking in the area and few amenities. It was also completely glass so you could see into everyones apartments.

Crazy stuff. This is where all the dirty secrets are people. If you dig into Docklands you'll find loads of news articles about it by googling it. I did before but forgot most of it. Must look it up again.