Does Ireland need a civilian intelligence agency

Foxhound38

I seem to remember former defence minister Michael Smith banging on about this a few years ago. I know we use the Gardai primarily for domestic intelligence gathering, with G2 filling in the gaps, but would it be feasbile or even desirable to consolidate the functions of those two organizations (criminal intelligence remaining within the purview of the Gardai) when it comes to issues of national security etc into a single, civilian-led organization much like the situation in the States and to a lesser extent the UK. With the growth of international terrorism and the threat posed by dissident paramilitary groups, can the Govt afford to stay blind as it were on the subject?

Donny5

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I seem to remember former defence minister Michael Smith banging on about this a few years ago. I know we use the Gardai primarily for domestic intelligence gathering, with G2 filling in the gaps, but would it be feasbile or even desirable to consolidate the functions of those two organizations (criminal intelligence remaining within the purview of the Gardai) when it comes to issues of national security etc into a single, civilian-led organization much like the situation in the States and to a lesser extent the UK. With the growth of international terrorism and the threat posed by dissident paramilitary groups, can the Govt afford to stay blind as it were on the subject?

I think what you're proposing would simply be an additional echelon of administrators between the producers of the intelligence and those who act upon it. I would not be in favour of this.

OS119

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I seem to remember former defence minister Michael Smith banging on about this a few years ago. I know we use the Gardai primarily for domestic intelligence gathering, with G2 filling in the gaps, but would it be feasbile or even desirable to consolidate the functions of those two organizations (criminal intelligence remaining within the purview of the Gardai) when it comes to issues of national security etc into a single, civilian-led organization much like the situation in the States and to a lesser extent the UK. With the growth of international terrorism and the threat posed by dissident paramilitary groups, can the Govt afford to stay blind as it were on the subject?

its a pretty glaring hole in the defence doctrine of the Republic - particularly given that a good part of that doctrine is 'maintain a naicent capability, then, if trouble brews, ramp it it'.

thats the idea behind the PC-9M's, the Scorpion CVR(T), and the RDF.

any country that had a low-level civil war brewing next door for the last 100 years, had found itself next to - and dependent on the result of - the most vital battlespace in two world wars, and one 50 year cold war, and didn't see a ongoing need to be fully aware of exactly what everyone else around it was thinking and doing would need to be on crack.

oh. one pipe or two Mr Cowan...

Foxhound38

Donny5 wrote: »

I think what you're proposing would simply be an additional echelon of administrators between the producers of the intelligence and those who act upon it. I would not be in favour of this.

I'm talking more in terms of overhaul than addition here. In Britain they have two agencies, MI5 and SIS. The sole purpose for these agencies is to collect, analyse and disseminate intelligence on a domestic and foreign level respectively, and they are staffed by civilians. There are very good reasons for this, a good part of which being that such intelligence is poltical by its very nature. If I'm not mistaken, G2 handles most of our foreign based intelligence needs, and I have a huge problem with involving members of the defence forces in such spheres.

Relevent support services are also an issue. G2 is entirely staffed by soldiers. How many of them are trained externally in Political Science? Mathematics? Sociology? Other intelligence agencies are staffed with personell trained to do these things, without them they wouldn't be able to operate in the way they do. The relevent Gardai Departments suffer from similar problems. Current personell were recruited as police officers and soldiers, not intelligence officers (who by all accounts have more in common with journalists than either of those jobs) - very different jobs imo.

I'm not saying that people in either of our current intelligence arms are doing a bad job, indeed G2 is highly respected. My issue is that the apparatus is slipshod and could do with proper contemplation by the higher ups in Government and the DF. Countries with far less need for comprehensive state security apparatus have gotten their act together, why can't we?

petergfiffin

Foxhound38 wrote: »

into a single, civilian-led organization much like the situation in the States...can the Govt afford to stay blind as it were on the subject?

Are you not making 2 large assumptions here:
1. A civilian organisation would be better at it than the Guards or Army (I'm a civilian myself btw).
2. There is a failing in our current intelligence services.

I haven't seen anything in the US that would make me believe the first and I see nothing that would make me believe our intelligence services are any less competent/effective than other services around the world (in fact I would tend to believe the opposite)

source

We're a small nation with a small budget, i think this thread needs to be consigned to hovertank territory.

There is no need for another intelligence organisation in this country, National security comes under the remit of An Garda Siochana, and it's something that's done well, It's an organisation that has been dealing with this role since its inception.

The threat of terrorism that is being levied on western nations from the middle east is again something that An Garda Siochana has been dealing with since it was founded, in the guise of the IRA, INLA, UDF, UDA, etc etc etc. This can be seen with the high profile arrests in the last few years of middle eastern terrorist cells, which have been operating in the country.

We as a nation do very well in terms of national security with the limited resources we have, and the fact that An Garda Siochana and the Defence Forces work together with Customs, helps a lot.

When you introduce an organisation that simply gathers intelligence, things start to get shadowy, information is not passed on in time, or over time the intelligence organisation will derive its own operational wing, which will lead to rivalry between the different organisations, which can be seen in the US and the UK. There is no co-operation and because of this things fall through the cracks.

The current system of intelligence gathering employed in the state works, and it works well, and as a wise man once said: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

odin_ie

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm talking more in terms of overhaul than addition here. In Britain they have two agencies, MI5 and SIS.

You forgot Government Communications Headquarters(GCHQ). Even New Zealand has the Government Communications Security Bureau.

EireGun

Irish Defence Forces: Directorate of Intelligence (G2) Headquarters at the Department of Defence HQ at Station Road, Newbridge, County Kildare, Ireland



HQ of the Directorate of Intelligence (G2), the intelligence branch of the Irish Defence Forces (DF). The G2 is the national intelligence agency of Ireland, working alongside An Garda Síochána national specialist units, such as; Crime & Security Branch (CSB), Special Detective Unit (SDU) and National Surveillance Unit (NSU). The Directorate of Intelligence is based at the Department of Defence (DOD) HQ at Station Road, Newbridge Town, County Kildare, Ireland and carries out covert joint-operations with the Irish Army Ranger Wing (ARW), based in the Curragh Camp nearby.

Field Operations Centre for the Defence Forces Directorate of Intelligence (G2) is based at McKee Barracks, Blackhorse Avenue, Dublin 7, Ireland.


An Garda Síochána: Crime and Security Branch (CSB) Headquarters, Phoenix Park, Dublin, Ireland

HQ of Ireland's domestic intelligence service, the Garda Crime & Security Branch (CSB) (counter-espionage and counter-terrorism), formerly known as "C3" at the Garda Headquarters, Phoenix Park, Dublin 8. This building houses the Security and Intelligence Unit and part of the Special Detective Unit (SDU) or "Special Branch", whose main centre of operations is at Harcourt Street, Dublin 2 (Garda Dublin Metropolitan Regional/DMR HQ). The National Surveillance Unit (NSU) is also based in the Phoenix Park and Harcourt St, along with the Emergency Response Unit (ERU). These units work alongside the Irish Defence Forces Directorate of Intelligence (G2), based in Newbridge, County Kildare at the Department of Defence HQ.

An Garda Síochána: Special Detective Unit (SDU) Headquarters, Harcourt Street, Dublin, Ireland

HQ of the premier counter-terrorism unit in Ireland, the Garda Special Detective Unit (SDU) or "Special Branch", at the Garda Dublin Metropolitan Region (DMR) HQ at Harcourt St, Dublin 2. The Special Detective Unit operates under the command of the Garda Crime & Security Branch (CSB), which is present at both Harcourt Street and the Phoenix Park, Dublin 8. The building also houses the Garda National Surveillance Unit (NSU) and Garda Emergency Response Unit (ERU), the latter of which is under the command of the Special Detective Unit. The SDU works closely with the Irish Defence Forces (DF) Directorate of Intelligence (G2), which is based in Newbridge Town, County Kildare, Ireland.

Former Irish Military Intelligence HQ: Irish Army G2 (Directorate of Intelligence) at Defence Forces GHQ, Parkgate, Infirmary Road, Dublin 7, Republic of Ireland.

goldie fish

You forgot the Dept of Social welfare. They know what everyone is up to.

OzCam

And the Revenue. They know everything else.