What do you think Jesus would really think of the church?

Vinny-Chase

First and foremost I'm not trolling. I would like to hear genuine discussion as to people's thoughts on this subject.

For years I've turned away from the Catholic Church and more toward God & Jesus. I'm very spiritual but have no time for organised religion.

Personally, the more I read about Jesus (the man) the more I think he would be none too impressed with what has been done with his ideas.

Thoughts?

Lando Griffin

Jesus would be wondering why his siblings, wife and kids are not being mentioned anywhere in the church?

Blackhorse Slim

Which church?

Vinny-Chase

Catholic

Manach

That he would be impressed by the dedication and commitment by a majority of the Church's clergy and that the doctine of the Church reflects his core message even after a period of 2K years.

lmaopml

I don't claim to know exactly what Jesus would think, but I would imagine that he would be disappointed if people were more worried about what is divisive than what is unifying....

I think tolerance for all is a gift that shines out from a person who is full up with the real presence of Jesus, and is the greatest tool Christians can apply to demonstrate his living presence within, otherwise we're contradictory.

The Minstrel

I wouldn't say he'd give a monkey's to be honest with you

philologos

OP: What do you mean by saying that you're spiritual, just curious? What does that involve?

Vinny-Chase

I mean I believe in God and I believe in Jesus. I pray. Not a by rote, ala learning times tables in school, Hail Mary or Our Father.

I don't believe in the church, I think every one is entitled to their own beliefs but for me personally; I believe in being a good person, trying to live a life as to the teachings of Jesus. But I really have issues with what I perceive to be the hypocrisy of the church.

The church puts so much emphasis on marriage etc but then they say you have to get married in the "house of God". But if God is everywhere why should it matter where you get married? "Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."?

Then the likes of "other religions". I mean what does it matter about other religions? If a person believes in God/ Jesus then what does it matter what "label" is attached to their beliefs.

The homophobia (I am not gay). Yet we're supposed to love all?

It was really when I started reading one of the other threads about "becoming a protestant" and the bureaucracy the OP would have had to go through with the diocese.

I switched from the ESB to Bord Gais and they sent me a letter thanking me for my business and wished me luck for the future. Church should be the same in my opinion. Thanks for your business, at least you have faith and believe.

Just some random thoughts that spring to mind.

smcgiff

Imagine Jesus getting a tour of the Vatican and an ecstatic Pope asking him if he planed on visiting anywhere else that day. Imagine Jesus saying, Darfur and I you can just see the smirk being wiped off the Pope's face quick time.

Jesus would not be too impressed I'd imagine, but when you consider what many people expect the world to be like when he comes again the worse the better, eh.

macgrub

Sigh

or

"The wealth of these guys have jumped up a notch since my day "

Vinny-Chase

smcgiff wrote: »

Imagine Jesus getting a tour of the Vatican and an ecstatic Pope asking him if he planed on visiting anywhere else that day. Imagine Jesus saying, Darfur and I you can just see the smirk being wiped off the Pope's face quick time.

I could just see him shaking his head and saying "Duuuude? Now you know you done messed up right? But that's alright, let's get this back to the way it was meant to be"

Vinny-Chase

macgrub wrote: »

Sigh

or

"The wealth of these guys have jumped up a notch since my day "

"A wooden cup was good enough for us to drink out of"

philologos

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I mean I believe in God and I believe in Jesus. I pray. Not a by rote, ala learning times tables in school, Hail Mary or Our Father.

I agree. There are a few posters who would agree with you in this respect. I believe a relationship with God is personal as well as a relationship that involves the entire church and the entire world.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I don't believe in the church, I think every one is entitled to their own beliefs but for me personally; I believe in being a good person, trying to live a life as to the teachings of Jesus. But I really have issues with what I perceive to be the hypocrisy of the church.

There are hypocrites everywhere, unfortunately. Indeed, Jesus spoke out against this in the Jewish religious classes while he was on this earth.

We need to understand what we mean by church, do we mean only Catholicism, or do we mean the Christian community as a whole. I'm not a RC, but I believe that everyone who believes in Jesus is by virtue a part of the global church.

The global church, and the local church you go to are so important in terms of sharing with each other about personal struggles and the like in faith, reading the Scriptures, giving advice about life issues and so on. We are all a part of Christ's body trying to work this out together, and that is intriguing and exciting I think.

Severing yourself from the global church (all denominations) is like severing yourself from Christ, or at least His body on this earth.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

The church puts so much emphasis on marriage etc but then they say you have to get married in the "house of God". But if God is everywhere why should it matter where you get married? "Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."?

I'm not entirely sure about this. If I am ever in a situation where I'll be married, I'd like for it to be in a church building, and I would like God's blessing over that marriage.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

Then the likes of "other religions". I mean what does it matter about other religions? If a person believes in God/ Jesus then what does it matter what "label" is attached to their beliefs.

I agree here.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

The homophobia (I am not gay). Yet we're supposed to love all?

Again, I agree. Hatred towards any group is unacceptable. I do believe there is a difference between opposing changing the definition of marriage and family and hatred though.

We must treat all others with respect despite whatever disagreements we personally happen to have.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

It was really when I started reading one of the other threads about "becoming a protestant" and the bureaucracy the OP would have had to go through with the diocese.

As a member of a Protestant denomination, there is no paper work required to become a Protestant, I.E you don't have to defect from the Roman Catholic Church first, all you have to do is start going.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

Just some random thoughts that spring to mind.

Indeed, thanks for the thoughts.

Uoykcuf

I'd say he'd be less than impressed with the state of things. He did put in a fair auld effort getting things off the ground after all, fasting, healing lepers, drinking vinegar, flogged, crucified etc..

Manach wrote: »

That he would be impressed by the dedication and commitment by a majority of the Church's clergy and that the doctine of the Church reflects his core message even after a period of 2K years.

......Oh yeah, like covering up the rape of children and the dehumanising of gays and women was his core message......

macgrub

macgrub wrote: »

Sigh

or

"The wealth of these guys have jumped up a notch since my day "

He would get a tour of St. Peters and think the grandeur is despicable. Seeing all his priests, bishops etc etc in crazy outfits spreading his diluted word, he would probably think "Does not get much worse than this"...
.....until he's told, " Nah, its gets worse "

Teferi

Did Jesus not go mad about riches in some temple? Doubt he would be too happy.

Vinny-Chase

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe that everyone who believes in Jesus is by virtue a part of the global church.

I think this is the church that Jesus would want. I mean I'm as bad as the church in I'm saying what I think Jesus wants but I'm not telling you you'll burn in hell if you don't believe.

Severing yourself from the global church (all denominations) is like severing yourself from Christ, or at least His body on this earth.

But is it HIS body? Is this what he would have wanted? Am I better off than a priest or your Aunty Sally who goes to church every day because I accept all people for who they are? Religion/ creed, sexuality is irrelevant. Am I closer to the teachings of Jesus than they are?

I'm not entirely sure about this. If I am ever in a situation where I'll be married, I'd like for it to be in a church building, and I would like God's blessing over that marriage.

But again this is my point. Do you believe you need a priest to issue God's blessing on to you?

It's actually marriage that has really kicked all this off in my head. I was married before and about to be divorced. I have found another woman who I whole heartedly love and want to spend the rest of my life with.

Because of all the "issues" I have with the church (the organisation) I wasn't married in a church before. When I went to have my youngest son baptised a few years ago. The priest said to my ex-wife (lucky for him it was not to me) that he should "not really being baptising your son in the church because you weren't married in a church". It's this kind of attitude that drives me further and further away. In this day and age you'd imagine that would be irrelevant. No such thing as "you have faith and are bringing your son up as a Christian that's what is important!"

My fiancé really wants to get married in a church. I've spoken to 4 different priests who have given me 4 different answers as to whether I can get married in a church. Some have told me I need an annulment, others I need nothing because "the chruch does not recognise your marriage in any shapr or form". God is everywhere? God is love?

We've also found out that no priest will marry us on a Sunday.

As a member of a Protestant denomination, there is no paper work required to become a Protestant, I.E you don't have to defect from the Roman Catholic Church first, all you have to do is start going.

You're a Protestant?! How can you type, haven't you got cloven hooves? I jest of course.

I personally couldn't care what religion a person belongs to and I delight in meeting other people from other faiths and hearing their beliefs. We all have a hard enough time on this planet without making it worse by attacking someone because of their religion.

The more I read the more I'm finding that more of my beliefs seem more in line with Protestantism than Catholicism.

I think the Catholic faith is mourned. We're guilted into it once the schools get a hold of you!

Sit, kneel, kneel, stand, "ourfatherwhoartinheaven..."

I have to imagine if Jesus came back to a church he'd think "Ah here boys, **** this, c'mon outside, feel the sun on your face and celebrate your faith"

Like that cool teacher that would let you have class outside some times in the summer.


That's my Jesus.

I'm not going to blame the church for clerical molestation. As the individuals are responsible for those actions. I DO blame them for covering it up and not holding their hands up and saying "ok, we f**ked up, but we're willing to change, work with us". But no! It's the same as it has been for thousands of years!

Vinny-Chase

macgrub wrote: »

He would get a tour of St. Peters and think the grandeur is despicable. Seeing all his priests, bishops etc etc in crazy outfits spreading his diluted word, he would probably think "Does not get much worse than this"...
.....until he's told, " Nah, its gets worse "

homer911

OP - being part of a Christian community is an essential part of being a Christian - to ensure support for yourself in your faith and to encourage others.

If you take a coal out of the fire, the coal will stop burning without the support of the other coals in the fireplace!

Find a church you like - catholic or otherwise, attend, participate and grow as a Christian...

philologos

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I think this is the church that Jesus would want. I mean I'm as bad as the church in I'm saying what I think Jesus wants but I'm not telling you you'll burn in hell if you don't believe.

It is up to God at the end of all time to determine who will be going where. Jesus is the only assurance we can have of being forgiven as far as I believe anyway.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

But is it HIS body? Is this what he would have wanted? Am I better off than a priest or your Aunty Sally who goes to church every day because I accept all people for who they are? Religion/ creed, sexuality is irrelevant. Am I closer to the teachings of Jesus than they are?

In the Biblical point of view, the church (global church) is Jesus' body. We are called to be His hands and feet in this world.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 wrote:

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:27 wrote:

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

You can look that up with more detail in your Bible if you want to see the context.

What I am saying is, by being believers in Jesus Christ, we are by virtue a part of His faith, and His body in this world. We are to live for Him first and foremost, and to help each other along the journey.

This is what I mean, when you are severing yourself from Christ if you reject the church (the global church), because His body is the Christian family.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

But again this is my point. Do you believe you need a priest to issue God's blessing on to you?

No, I don't, but I would feel it beneficial to do so in a church, in a Christian ceremony. If I am ever in that situation, and I hope I will some day, I'd like to find a minister I knew well, and one that I knew understood Christianity well.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

Because of all the "issues" I have with the church (the organisation) I wasn't married in a church before. When I went to have my youngest son baptised a few years ago. The priest said to my ex-wife (lucky for him it was not to me) that he should "not really being baptising your son in the church because you weren't married in a church". It's this kind of attitude that drives me further and further away. In this day and age you'd imagine that would be irrelevant. No such thing as "you have faith and are bringing your son up as a Christian that's what is important!"

There is no such rules involved concerning baptism in the Christian faith. I personally would recommend considering adult baptism, I.E wait until your child has decided for him or herself that it is he right decision, and that they really believe in the Gospel.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

My fiancé really wants to get married in a church. I've spoken to 4 different priests who have given me 4 different answers as to whether I can get married in a church. Some have told me I need an annulment, others I need nothing because "the chruch does not recognise your marriage in any shapr or form". God is everywhere? God is love?

Jesus says in the Bible, that divorce is only valid in limited circumstances. Infidelity or unfaithfulness to the marriage being the main one of them. I think we do need more mercy in the church though. Nobody lives a perfect life. We should really debate that on this forum sometime, I'd be very interested to see what the other regulars would say.

Matthew 19:8-9 wrote:

He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

We've also found out that no priest will marry us on a Sunday.

This is understandable, church services on Sundays are demanding enough let alone having other functions on the same day.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

You're a Protestant?! How can you type, haven't you got cloven hooves? I jest of course.

:pac:

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

The more I read the more I'm finding that more of my beliefs seem more in line with Protestantism than Catholicism.

It is up for you to think about that for yourself.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I think the Catholic faith is mourned. We're guilted into it once the schools get a hold of you!

Sit, kneel, kneel, stand, "ourfatherwhoartinheaven..."

This is another point. Practice differs a lot between differing groups of Christians as well in the global church. A few would use contemporary music, a few would use traditionalist music, some would emphasise the sermon and so on. Some use prayer books, some do not.

What really unites Christians is the belief that Jesus Christ is Lord of all.

Vinny-Chase wrote: »

I'm not going to blame the church for clerical molestation. As the individuals are responsible for those actions. I DO blame them for covering it up and not holding their hands up and saying "ok, we f**ked up, but we're willing to change, work with us". But no! It's the same as it has been for thousands of years!

I think any reasonable person would agree with this if they are in the RCC, and any reasonable person would agree that their church isn't perfect. I know mine isn't.

I don't think we should change the Gospel, or Jesus' message, or change the Bible. I do think we need to change our behaviour to what God wants more than what we want all of the time too.

00sully

well if the temple lesson in the bible is anything to go by then Jesus would absolutely lose the plot at the shenanigans of the current rcc. He would prob destroy all the physical churches and strip them of their gold.

as for the vatican....jesus wept!

PDN

Teferi wrote: »

Did Jesus not go mad about riches in some temple? Doubt he would be too happy.

No, He didn't.

He went mad about the money changers ripping people off in the Temple - saying that their actions were defiling His Father''s house (a house that happened to already be pretty ornate with lots of gold and stuff).

JimiTime

I often think of the book of Revelation in relation to this question. In the book, Jesus addresses the various congregations and reprimands them. I often think of denominational Christianity in such a way. Jesus basically seeing them as various congregations, and judging them accordingly. He'll judge these on the basis of being held up as teachers, and will judge individuals on the merits of their heart. It is why worshippers from all denominations will be saved, even if the denomination is reprimanded. God has planted his true church in all aspects of the world, in various guises and denominations.

Vinny-Chase

Jakkass wrote: »

We are to live for Him first and foremost, and to help each other along the journey.

I believe I do this. Well, I at least try to as much as I can.

This is what I mean, when you are severing yourself from Christ if you reject the church (the global church), because His body is the Christian family.

I dunno, I guess I'm really at a cross roads with my faith. Not in God or Jesus but in the establishment that is "the church". I think the more I feel I'm getting closer to God, the further I find myself from the RCC. I find myself leaning toward the Gnostic way of knowing myself and my relationship to God. It's a scary/ exciting/ frustrating time for me right now I have to admit.

There is no such rules involved concerning baptism in the Christian faith. I personally would recommend considering adult baptism, I.E wait until your child has decided for him or herself that it is he right decision, and that they really believe in the Gospel.

Maybe you should tell that to one of "God's Representatives" on earth. I believe in bringing my children up as Christians. But I don't think that means I have to force them to mass as my parents did to me. Also they have to be baptised for the schools they go to as they are the usual Irish school system Catholic fair.

Jesus says in the Bible, that divorce is only valid in limited circumstances. Infidelity or unfaithfulness to the marriage being the main one of them. I think we do need more mercy in the church though. Nobody lives a perfect life. We should really debate that on this forum sometime, I'd be very interested to see what the other regulars would say.

I'd be interested too. Things happen in life. Marriages breakdown, people make mistakes. I don't think any one should be vilified for it. "Let he who is without sin..." I think the church really needs to practice what it preaches. More of the hypocrisy I feel is there

This is another point. Practice differs a lot between differing groups of Christians as well in the global church. A few would use contemporary music, a few would use traditionalist music, some would emphasise the sermon and so on. Some use prayer books, some do not.

I just feel that the RCC mourns it's faith instead of celebrating it. I don't think Jesus would want us there droning on. I'm reminded of the sketch Bill Hicks did about Christians using the cross as their symbol. Like that is the last thing Jesus would want to see on his return. Like using a sniper rifle to remember JFK.

I don't think we should change the Gospel, or Jesus' message, or change the Bible. I do think we need to change our behaviour to what God wants more than what we want all of the time too.

From where I am now, I feel I don't need to change my behavior to suit God. I think I am living my life as he would like, bar partaking in the church establishment. Where I am at now, I feel "the church" needs to change their behavior to what God wants more.

Many thanks for your input on this conversation Jakkass, I am really enjoying it I must admit.