First class and the Test question.

d'Oracle

Last night whilst arguing like a demented badger about England playing Irish cricketers I had a closer look at the ECB eligibility criteria.

Something worries me.
Surely in order to become a full test playing member, one needs some form of a domestic first class competition? Am I wrong about this?

I say this because having viewed the affore mentioned criteria, our players would need to become overseas players for county teams if they played test cricket for Ireland. This would surely limit the amount of players we can have playing in counties. It then follows that we would need a strong competitive first class game here to develop our test players.

Can Ireland support 4 day unlimited overs games?
Is there the depth of interest to support full time paid teams?

Apologies if I am rehashing old points here.

Your thoughts folks?

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

Last night whilst arguing like a demented badger about England playing Irish cricketers I had a closer look at the ECB eligibility criteria.

Something worries me.
Surely in order to become a full test playing member, one needs some form of a domestic first class competition? Am I wrong about this?

I say this because having viewed the affore mentioned criteria, our players would need to become overseas players for county teams if they played test cricket for Ireland. This would surely limit the amount of players we can have playing in counties. It then follows that we would need a strong competitive first class game here to develop our test players.

Can Ireland support 4 day unlimited overs games?
Is there the depth of interest to support full time paid teams?

Apologies if I am rehashing old points here.

Your thoughts folks?

This is one of the big questions for Ireland regarding test status.

I'm not sure of the regulations, but I do think a first-class competition is a necessity under the current criteria. To deal with your questions:

Can Ireland support 4-day unlimited overs games?

No, but then neither can any other nation. In all countries, the first-class game is subsidised by the limited-overs game, and particularly by test cricket, which is the only form of long-game cricket that makes any sort of money.

Is there the depth of interest to support full time paid teams?

I doubt it. My thinking would be that we would have to have regional sides, similar to rugby, to support this. Australia run their first-class game based on the states, so they only have a small number of first-class sides. It could work, but some imagination is required to arrive at a proper competition structure.

One possibility is the Irish regional sides - say Leinster, North, NorthWest and Munster/Connacht - could play in a first-class comp with a few Scottish regional sides.

Beasty

d'Oracle wrote: »

I say this because having viewed the affore mentioned criteria, our players would need to become overseas players for county teams if they played test cricket for Ireland. This would surely limit the amount of players we can have playing in counties.

No they cannot limit in any way the number of EU nationals playing for counties - this would contravene EU employment law.

(the counties could, of course, self-impose limits, which (I think, but really should know!) remains the case for Yorkshire)

djimi

A good idea might be to come up with a Celtic League style scenario where regional teams from Ireland, Scotland, Holland, Denmark etc play in a 4 day competition. Problem is I dont think it would generate enough interest to sustain itself and pay the players.

The lack of first class domestic competition in Ireland is going to be the major stumbling block for us in our quest for test cricket.

D3PO

D'Oracle your right a strong first class structure is required to get test status. This was the major stumbling block that prevented Keyna getting said status years ago (ignoring the policitcal power shifts and jostling and rebuffing involved with having a new full member )

Can Ireland support 4 day unlimited overs games?

Quite frankly no we cant. The same we we cannot support a fully professional soccer league, or any other sport (bar rugby)

Is there the depth of interest to support full time paid teams?

Again unlikely. Take the ODI versus the Aussies coming up, its about as attractive a fixture you could have in this country. Fancy betting how many people turn up in Clontarf for it ?

The only way this would work is for perhaps some regional teams to setup and create a celtic league type scenario, and even then it would have to be heavily and i mean heavily subsidised by the ICC to allow it run as a professional setup

Id put a rough estimation of cost at somewhere in and around 10 million euro to the ICU annually for player wages, ground staff, umpiring, ground maintenance, travel etc to get this off the ground. Very little that would come back in revenue.

Perhaps a small TV deal could be struck with Setanta or the likes for rights to a celtic league type ODI competition, very small revenue from gate reciepts, I dont see anybody picking up Class A TV rights as there wouldnt be a market for it here.

I havent been able to dig up the associate funding detial from the ICC site right now, but suffice to say no way woudl they be willing to invest 10 million annually in an irish domestic setup

Renno

D3PO wrote: »

The only way this would work is for perhaps some regional teams to setup and create a celtic league type scenario, and even then it would have to be heavily and i mean heavily subsidised by the ICC to allow it run as a professional setup

Id put a rough estimation of cost at somewhere in and around 10 million euro to the ICU annually for player wages, ground staff, umpiring, ground maintenance, travel etc to get this off the ground. Very little that would come back in revenue.

Perhaps a small TV deal could be struck with Setanta or the likes for rights to a celtic league type ODI competition, very small revenue from gate reciepts, I dont see anybody picking up Class A TV rights as there wouldnt be a market for it here.

I havent been able to dig up the associate funding detial from the ICC site right now, but suffice to say no way woudl they be willing to invest 10 million annually in an irish domestic setup

TrueDub wrote: »

Can Ireland support 4-day unlimited overs games?

No, but then neither can any other nation. In all countries, the first-class game is subsidised by the limited-overs game, and particularly by test cricket, which is the only form of long-game cricket that makes any sort of money.

As TrueDub says, money isn't really an issue. There isn't a single first class comp in the world that is financially self sufficient, so we don't need to worry about ours being so.

The only place that money is going to come from is the ICC. That extra funding won't come until Ireland gets Test status, which we won't get without a first class set up. Mmmm.

It's going to take a leap of faith from the ICC. Firstly an extra $10 million pa to set up a Creltic/Europe first class league. Then it's possible Ireland would be a step closer to Test status. However I still can't see the existing 10 giving up some of the huge financial pot to little old Ireland. So why not just seperate Full member status from test cricket for now, give Ireland test status, and worry about the financial pot later? At leasy that will stem the tide of players moving to play for England.

It seems as if Cricket Ireland are definitely moving in the right direction though. Interpros are being re-introduced this year, and then Senior fixtures will be centrally arranged in 2011 so that a full Interpro fixture list can be arranged. Imagine the excitement (all comparative I suppose) that that would generate, with players knowing that performance for the provinces could lead to a central contract and Test cricket?!

d'Oracle

I'm not sure its just a question of status.
As financially beleaguered as the respective first class games are, they provide a basis for players to play the long form and develop the ability and experience to bring to the test game. Even Bangladesh has a first class structure.

Renno

Do we have enough players for a first class comp? Here're 34 who are good enough, which is as many as Zimbabwe had in their first class comp (off the top of my head and in no particular order). If Scotland and the Netherlands had the same, that could be too many teams?

Johnston, Cusack, Mooney, Dockrell, Hall, Shannon, Scholtz, Poynter, McCarter, McDonnell (Pemb), Carroll, K O'Brien, Keaveney, E Richardson, Botha, Strydom, Moleon, A McBride, Balbirnie, Bauer, Koch, Van Der Merwe, McCallan, McDonnell (Brig), White, Getkate, Young, West, McCann, Jones, Eagleston, Ackland, Nelson, Thompson.

Excluding Porterfield, Stirling, Rankin, N O'Brien, Connell who are in England (although I did inlcude Young)

D3PO

Renno wrote: »

Do we have enough players for a first class comp?

if the funding was there aswell your potentially going to entice some players from england and further afield.

i understand thats not the point and defeats the purpose to a certain extent, but if we could get a first class setup running firstly then we can look at player development afterwards

Beasty

In my mind, first class = (pretty much) full time. Is there really the appetite amongst enough Irish cricketers to go full time. I appreciate some already ply their trade in England, but these are the guys who are really committed, and can make a living out of it.

I suspect the attraction for a number in the current Irish team is they can do other work alongside their cricket. Some of the "imports" currently playing for Ireland could well have been good enough to make it in county cricket, but chose not to. You perhaps need to think why this is. I suspect it is because they can continue to play the game they love, while earning a decent living doing other (probably cricket-related) things

The other thing about going full time is it may attract more "imports" - particularly those who currently struggle to get a game at country level in England (including some up and coming players). Hence this could lead to unintended consequences that are not necessarily good for the Irish game as a whole.

Another point I would add. The international calendar is already too crowded, with countries struggling to fit in the required games against some of the weaker teams (and having to curtail the number of matches against some of the stronger ones). The larger countries will probably not feel it is in their interests to add further test-playing nations, unless, perhaps, it is on a two "league" basis, with the smaller nations typically playing each other, and rarely getting to play against the "big boys"

djimi

Beasty wrote: »

Another point I would add. The international calendar is already too crowded, with countries struggling to fit in the required games against some of the weaker teams (and having to curtail the number of matches against some of the stronger ones). The larger countries will probably not feel it is in their interests to add further test-playing nations, unless, perhaps, it is on a two "league" basis, with the smaller nations typically playing each other, and rarely getting to play against the "big boys"

This would be the solution I think. Have a second tier of test cricket where teams like Ireland can play full proper 5 day test series against the other associate members. Then bring in an obligation that each full test nation much play at least two tests a year against second tier opposition.

Aint going to happen but its nice to dream I suppose...

Renno

Beasty wrote: »

In my mind, first class = (pretty much) full time.

I'm pretty sure that the only full time first class comp in the world is in England, and even then that is only mostly six month contracts. It would raise the issue though if players having normal jobs but needing perhaps 60 days off per year to play cricket.

Two leagues definitely the way to go. The barriers to that would be those who are scared of relegation (everyone except Australia!)

d'Oracle

Renno wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the only full time first class comp in the world is in England, and even then that is only mostly six month contracts. It would raise the issue though if players having normal jobs but needing perhaps 60 days off per year to play cricket.

Two leagues definitely the way to go. The barriers to that would be those who are scared of relegation (everyone except Australia!)

Ranji Trophy, no?

Renno

I'm not sure about the contracts of run-of-the-mill Ranji Trophy players, but the compeititon itself only runs from 10 weeks (Nov-early Jan)

D3PO

Beasty wrote: »

In my mind, first class = (pretty much) full time. Is there really the appetite amongst enough Irish cricketers to go full time.

If the money was right Id suggest there would be plenty of appetite.

TrueDub

D3PO wrote: »

If the money was right Id suggest there would be plenty of appetite.

I agree - and again we're back to money!

D3PO

TrueDub wrote: »

I agree - and again we're back to money!

well look i love playing cricket as much as the next person on here but theres no way id give up work to play it full time unless it paid enough for it to make sense.

**DISCLAIMER** Im not good enough for taverners level not to mind first class

Beasty

TrueDub wrote: »

I agree - and again we're back to money!

And is there really enough interest in Ireland to generate the money required - there's no point in looking to other countries to subsidise Ireland long term. Sufficient cash would need to be generated either from TV, sponsorship and/or gate money - I don't see any of these being major money spinners in the Irish market

D3PO

Beasty wrote: »

And is there really enough interest in Ireland to generate the money required - there's no point in looking to other countries to subsidise Ireland long term. Sufficient cash would need to be generated either from TV, sponsorship and/or gate money - I don't see any of these being major money spinners in the Irish market

lets all petition for Alan Stanford to get resiency I say :D:D:D:D